The Seven Year 'PLOD'

[HighVoltage]

The reason why the Church books were in such good shape, most of them were at the bottom of the stack where very little oxygen was able to get to the books.Resulting in "white pages"

 

See, now that's just weird... I heard that ALL of the Church books were at the bottom of the stack...?!?

 

Except for that copy of Red Raven Comics that Chuck pulled off the top of the stack!

[ablue]

The reason why the Church books were in such good shape, most of them were at the bottom of the stack where very little oxygen was able to get to the books.Resulting in "white pages"

 

See, now that's just weird... I heard that ALL of the Church books were at the bottom of the stack...?!?

 

Hmm.Sorry,let me start over. Most of the nicer books with "white" pages and super

ink colors were at the bottom of the stacks of his books.

Most museums have climate control or books and documents placed in vacuumed sealed storage display cases.

Other documents and books are not sealed because they are for documentation and research.

IM not stating this as total fact for all documents, but removing oxygen from the source protects the paper from aging over time. Of course other forms of preservation is necessary too.

This is directly from E.GERBER PRODUCTS.

 

What about Air and Oxygen?

Do these elements damage comics? Isn't it bad to completely seal off the comics and make them airtight?

 

The reality is that an airtight environment is the proper environment and by far the best one for preservation. By keeping out the oxygen, moisture and insects, and by keeping the temperature reasonably low, you can provide an environment in which your comics will become "Golden."

 

For example, go to any library that has older volumes. Open any book and figure out why the pages are always browner at the edges and get lighter and whiter as you move towards the middle of the page. The inside of that book has not been in contact with any moisture, fresh re-circulating oxygen or light.

 

http://www.egerber.com/aboutpreservation2.htm

 

[ablue]

[fantastic_four]

Hmm.Sorry,let me start over. Most of the nicer books with "white" pages and super

ink colors were at the bottom of the stacks of his books.

 

Where did you hear this? The only person who would know which books were at the bottom of the stacks is Rozanski...did he say this at some point? I didn't see this in his recent series of articles in CBG about the Church discovery.

 

 

Most museums have climate control or books and documents placed in vacuumed sealed storage display cases.

 

Are you sure they're vacuum sealed, or are you assuming it? I do know the US Constitution is in a sealed case, but I figured that's because it's got nitrogen in it and the nitrogen would leak out if it wasn't sealed.

 

 

This is directly from E.GERBER PRODUCTS.

 

I first saw that quote ( Click here to see full text from E. Gerber web site ) about keeping comics airtight on Gerber's web site in 2000, and I've been trying to figure it out ever since for the following reasons:

 

• Where did he hear it? Most of his preservation recommendations have come from the Library of Congress and National Archives, but everything from those two sources I've been able to put my hands on to date contradicts his advice.
• If sealing comics airtight is so important, why doesn't he include it on the list of storage recommendations on the same page you took your quote from?
• If sealing comics in an airtight environment is so important, why are all E. Gerber 4-mil melinex bags open on the top edge?

[Timely]

Based on the 8000+ Mile Highs I have seen over the years, many of the 1950's MH's have darker page quality and the early 40's books are blazingly white.

 

Timely

[ablue]

Here is a sample from the Library of congress.

 

Gettysburg Address

Top Treasures

[Gettysburg Address]

Manuscript Division

 

Seen here is the earliest known of the five drafts of what may be the most famous American speech. Delivered by President Abraham Lincoln in Gettysburg, Pa., at the dedication of a memorial cemetery on November 19, 1863, it is now familiarly known as "The Gettysburg Address." Drawing inspiration from his favorite historical document, the Declaration of Independence, Lincoln equated the catastrophic suffering caused by the Civil War with the efforts of the American people to live up to the proposition that "all men are created equal." This document is presumed to be the only working, or pre-delivery, draft and is commonly identified as the "Nicolay Copy" because it was once owned by John George Nicolay, Lincoln's private secretary. The first page of this copy is on White House (then Executive Mansion) stationery, lending strong support to the theory that it was drafted in Washington, D.C. But the second page is on what has been loosely described as foolscap, suggesting that Lincoln was not fully satisfied with the final paragraph of the Address and rewrote that passage in Gettysburg on November 18 while staying at the home of Judge David Wills.

Treatment: The Top Treasures are stored in a cold storage vault in the Conservation Division. Each treasure is housed in a protective enclosure. The lack of oxygen and the cold temperature and stable humidity inside of the vault extends the life of these documents by several hundred years. The temperature in the vault is 50 degrees F. The relative humidity is 50%. These are ideal conditions for paper documents.

http://www.loc.gov/preserv/bachbase/bbcmanus2.html

[fantastic_four]

This quote is inconclusive...you can't tell from the the description whether the "protective enclosure" they store the Gettysburg Address in is airtight or vacuum-sealed, or whether something about the vault is what creates the "oxygen-free" environment.

 

A few months ago, I asked the LoC specifically about storing pulp paper in an airtight, vacuum-sealed enclosure, and they very specifically replied that it isn't a good idea. However, they didn't go into detail as to why vacuum-sealing doesn't prevent acidic release which addresses every point brought up in this thread, so I just asked the LoC the follow-up below...I'll post the answer if I get one:

 

 

A few months ago, I asked a question about whether vacuum-sealing wood-pulp paper documents (comic books) was an effective way to slow decay. The response by the librarian was that this type of encapsulation should be avoided because it doesn't allow acid produced as the paper degrades to diffuse out into the environment.

 

Why is this the case? Aren't the acids released by the paper a by-product of oxidation? And in an airtight, oxygen-free, vacuum-sealed enclosure, wouldn't oxidation not be a factor?

 

The motivation for asking this question is that there is a popular hypothesis in the collecting community that the most famous comic book collection ever found was so incredibly well-preserved because the original owner stored the comics in HUGE stacks which stretched from floor to ceiling in a house in Denver, Colorado. The hypothesis is that besides the generally low temperature and humidity of that part of the country, the intense pressure generated by the huge stacks caused the paper stored towards the middle and bottom of these stacks to become compressed and to effectively close off all contact with oxygen. Is there anything to this hypothesis?

 

On the LoC web site, there is a page ( http://www.loc.gov/preserv/bachbase/bbcmanus2.html ) which describes the conditions many famous historical documents are stored under. The blurb on the Gettysburg Address says the following: "The Top Treasures are stored in a cold storage vault in the Conservation Division. Each treasure is housed in a protective enclosure. The lack of oxygen and the cold temperature and stable humidity inside of the vault extends the life of these documents by several hundred years." How is this oxygen-free environment created--by the "protective enclosure" the document itself is stored in, or by the vault? And if this oxygren-free environment is ideal, why is vacuum-sealing NOT ideal?

 

Thanks for your attention!

[ablue]

Ok.

[awe4one]

Where did you hear this? The only person who would know which books were at the bottom of the stacks is Rozanski...did he say this at some point?

 

 

When I met Rozanski at the Frankfurt Bookfest in 1993, he said that the MH books at the bottom of the piles were the "freshest" of the bunch.

 

Jim

[Freiherr]

What kind of containers were they in?

 

If they were not in anything that was air tight, then the pressure would equalize. If they were in something like plastic tubs, then I could see the stacks above them creating a slight vacuum inside the container.

 

But unless it was a container specifically made to be airtight, than I seriously doubt it would remain that way. Whenever you have positive or negative pressure, over time it will fight hard to equalize.

 

I am willing to bet that the bottom books did better because the temperatures were lower (heat rises). If surrounded by mass amounts of other books, there might have been a small amount of insulation.

 

Of course, it could have been a combination of everything. The bottom books could have been blocked in a way that they got less air, hence less oxygen getting to the better books and the other books acting as an oxygen filter.

 

Any links about this story?

 

[awe4one]

My understanding is the weight of the stacks on the bottom comics keep oxygen from getting to the paper.

 

Jim

[Freiherr]

But weight would only be part of the equation.

 

Say you have a plastic bowl with an airtight lid. We know if you add weight on top of the lid (push down on it) that the pressure will force some of air out creating a temporary vacuum. You can place other bowls on top of it to maintain that pressure, but it will equalize regardless. The vacuum will drawl in air over time, but it will just have slightly less room.

 

Now, I do not know about comics. My chemical and gas knowledge is limited from what I know about marine biology and pressure and vacuum from electronics.

 

What specific gas is formed by the deterioration of comics? Is the gas itself harmful to the pages or is it just a byproduct?

 

In any case, if it is dependent on oxygen, the oxygen should either be used or bonded. If the comics are blocked from flowing air, then it might be possible for outside comics to “scrub” what little air got to them.

 

[fantastic_four]

They weren't in anything, they were stacked floor to ceiling in Church's basement

[fantastic_four]

I was just thinking...how can comics be stacked in such high piles? I can't stack them much more than a foot before they begin to waver and tip. Also, you can't really stack them unless you alternate the spines in such a way that half the stack faces one way and the other half faces the other; if you don't stack them in an alternating direction then the spines begin to stack higher than the rest of the book after you get about 50-100 in a pile. I guess Church did alternate the spines?

 

Anybody ever successfully created a 6-foot stack of comics, or believe it's possible?

[Freiherr]

So if the gasses emitted by the paper is dependent on oxygen, then the theory sounds solid to me. I need to find more pictures because even though the comics on the bottom would have enough pressure to keep air away from the majority of the surface area, the edges would still be exposed. This might be where temperature difference came in.

 

As for stacking comics, I have had problems with just keeping a stack a foot high. Even if you alternate the spines, the slightest angle makes them slide off.

 

Can someone tell me the name of the gas/gases omitted by the oxidation process of paper? Are there gasses released naturally without an outside source (as in chemicals in the ink/paper reacting together)?

 

[garthgantu]

I was just thinking...how can comics be stacked in such high piles? I can't stack them much more than a foot before they begin to waver and tip. Also, you can't really stack them unless you alternate the spines in such a way that half the stack faces one way and the other half faces the other; if you don't stack them in an alternating direction then the spines begin to stack higher than the rest of the book after you get about 50-100 in a pile. I guess Church did alternate the spines?

 

Anybody ever successfully created a 6-foot stack of comics, or believe it's possible?

 

Great point, FF - this is an ongoing mystery. As a kid, I used to stack my books 'horizontally' (i.e., not standing up in boxes, but laying down one on top of the other). At the time, I had maybe 3,000 comics. The stacks that were more than 50 or 60 books high became unmanageable for the reasons you describe. Only thing I can think of is this: if your first 6-foot stack of books was arranged in the corner of a room, you'd have two walls to help provide support. than you could build new stacks adjacent to the first stack, using one wall and the existing 6-foot stack, to again provide two sources of support/reinforcement. That's the only way I can imagine 6-foot stacks staying in place, and even then I'd expect some problems. Good thing for Church (and more to the point, Rozanski) he didn't live in earthquake country...