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How in the world did this go unnoticed???

Started by Guardian Comics,

1,945 posts in this topic

VintageComics

VintageComics

Posted
Posted

Short of stopping pressing all together, how far is anyone going to have to go to please anti-pressing advocates to make them happy? Is there anything else that can be done to satisfy anti pressing advocates?

 

I guess nobody wanted to answer this question?

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paperheart

paperheart

Posted
Posted

Short of stopping pressing all together, how far is anyone going to have to go to please anti-pressing advocates to make them happy? Is there anything else that can be done to satisfy anti pressing advocates?

 

I guess nobody wanted to answer this question?

 

maybe roy will give it a shot. roy answering roy answering roy. the possibilities are endless

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Nexus

Nexus

Posted
Posted
Short of stopping pressing all together, how far is anyone going to have to go to please anti-pressing advocates to make them happy? Is there anything else that can be done to satisfy anti pressing advocates?

 

For me...no. I understand it's been around since before CGC, and that when done right, it's undetectable. But the prevalence of it these days has completely rendered high-grade collecting meaningless to me. A manufactured grade isn't the real thing to me. I can't lie to myself and pretend a pressed book is the same as an unpressed one. If CGC can't or won't make the distinction, then I'm staying out.

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stagedoorjohnny

stagedoorjohnny

Posted
Posted

Short of stopping pressing all together, how far is anyone going to have to go to please anti-pressing advocates to make them happy? Is there anything else that can be done to satisfy anti pressing advocates?

 

I guess nobody wanted to answer this question?

 

My answer to the first question is "not really". The train has left the station. The horse has left the barn. Hey, however you'd like to call it. (thumbs u

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Moondog

Moondog

Posted
Posted

The reality has come to this: If you don't want someone else to take advantage of you, you need to be pressing books. Whether you agree or disagree, if you don't press major books, many times you are facilitating the wealth of a select few who will target you and purchase books knowing you don't press.

 

That's really what it all boils down to. I press now for that exact reason. Set aside all of the histrionics, soapbox preaching and ethical debates...when someone buys a 9.4 from me for $800, presses it into a 9.6 and flips it for $3000, things need to change in my selling model. Period. Nobody likes playing the sucker or the mark, and I'd rather have that profit riding on my hip. I don't know too many people in this hobby, collectors or dealers, who are in this to make other people money.

 

I didn't think there was anything wrong with your (previous) business model, Andy. The problem lies in a marketplace that thrives on this type of conduct.

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dopy02

dopy02

Posted
Posted

Short of stopping pressing all together, how far is anyone going to have to go to please anti-pressing advocates to make them happy? Is there anything else that can be done to satisfy anti pressing advocates?

 

I guess nobody wanted to answer this question?

 

My answer to the first question is "not really". The train has left the station. The horse has left the barn. Hey, however you'd like to call it. (thumbs u

 

you can't unring the bell

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Moondog

Moondog

Posted
Posted
Forgive me for breaking up the fun, but I have a serious question for Tim, Nick, and anyone else inherently opposed to pressing -- and I assure you this is not patronizing.

 

If there was a CGC 9.4 book you wanted, and it was unpressed and not improvable by pressing, and it was then pressed with no visible change, resubbed, and came back as a CGC 9.4, would you still object to the book?

 

Yes. (thumbs u

 

For me it's not the 'improvement' that's the issue, it's the fact that it's been manipulated.

 

Agree 100%. (thumbs u

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Moondog

Moondog

Posted
Posted
Short of stopping pressing all together, how far is anyone going to have to go to please anti-pressing advocates to make them happy? Is there anything else that can be done to satisfy anti pressing advocates?

 

For me...no. I understand it's been around since before CGC, and that when done right, it's undetectable. But the prevalence of it these days has completely rendered high-grade collecting meaningless to me. A manufactured grade isn't the real thing to me. I can't lie to myself and pretend a pressed book is the same as an unpressed one. If CGC can't or won't make the distinction, then I'm staying out.

 

I'm with you.

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tth2

tth2

Posted
Posted

Short of stopping pressing all together, how far is anyone going to have to go to please anti-pressing advocates to make them happy? Is there anything else that can be done to satisfy anti pressing advocates?

 

I guess nobody wanted to answer this question?

Well, by qualifying your question with "Short of stopping pressing all together", you've already tried to steer anti-pressers towards some middle ground and thus made the question not really worth answering.

 

But to answer your question, I guess CGC putting a PLOD on books known to be pressed would be a good start.

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Flaming_Telepath

Flaming_Telepath

Posted
Posted

Short of stopping pressing all together, how far is anyone going to have to go to please anti-pressing advocates to make them happy? Is there anything else that can be done to satisfy anti pressing advocates?

 

I guess nobody wanted to answer this question?

Well, by qualifying your question with "Short of stopping pressing all together", you've already tried to steer anti-pressers towards some middle ground and thus made the question not really worth answering.

 

But to answer your question, I guess CGC putting a PLOD on books known to be pressed would be a good start.

 

Which is precisely why I didn't answer it.

 

'Short of stopping people being murdered, how would you propose that we stop people being murdered?' doh!

 

However, I'll go with Tim on the 'solution'. If CGC are now confident that they can detect micro-trimming, they sure as hell can detect the majority of press jobs. It might take a little more time, and it might demand an increase in pricing, but I'm certain that they can spot a high percentage.

 

And if they do, label it as such. By every measure other than the self-serving one CGC laid down, pressing is restoration but I acknowledge that it is the least invasive and least damaging to the book (if done properly). Given that, I'd even be prepared to have the book in a blue Universal label with 'Pressed' noted on it.

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Flaming_Telepath

Flaming_Telepath

Posted
Posted
Forgive me for breaking up the fun, but I have a serious question for Tim, Nick, and anyone else inherently opposed to pressing -- and I assure you this is not patronizing.

 

If there was a CGC 9.4 book you wanted, and it was unpressed and not improvable by pressing, and it was then pressed with no visible change, resubbed, and came back as a CGC 9.4, would you still object to the book?

 

I would never object to the book. My take is this, 9.4 book unpressed = unrestored, price I will pay, unrestored 9.4 price. 9.4 book pressed = restored, price I will pay, restored 9.4 price (which is ~25% the unrestored price in my mind). I have no problem buying nice restored books with decent eye appeal, I just want to pay the restored price for a restored book. Pretty simple really. If other collectors want to pay unrestored prices for a restored book (in my opinion), good for them, I also have no problem if they want to.

 

And this is exactly why sellers have zero incentive to disclose. Even the collectors who are willing to buy pressed books, don't want to pay "full price". What's the point of the manufactured grade bump then?

 

The collectors who don't give a mess are more than willing to pay full price.

 

Correct. (thumbs u

 

Go look at the auction results from CLink and Pedigree and tell me that pressing doesn't pay. :eek:

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Flaming_Telepath

Flaming_Telepath

Posted
Posted

 

 

That's really what it all boils down to. I press now for that exact reason. Set aside all of the histrionics, soapbox preaching and ethical debates...when someone buys a 9.4 from me for $800, presses it into a 9.6 and flips it for $3000, things need to change in my selling model. Period. Nobody likes playing the sucker or the mark, and I'd rather have that profit riding on my hip. I don't know too many people in this hobby, collectors or dealers, who are in this to make other people money.

 

lol

 

No, there is no NEED for your selling model to change. Selling books at a price that you are comfortable with and provides you with a profit does not make one a "sucker" or a "mark" if someone else makes more money on it, manipulated or otherwise. You've just gone over the edge to bitter and feeling entitled, and at such a young age.

 

I don't feel like either a 'sucker' or a 'mark'. I know what I believe and I'm quite happy to leave money on the table...and watch others snatch that money up...if it means staying true to what I believe.

 

Sure, I'll be formally 'in the business' come the end of the first quarter but I'm 'in the business' because I love comics, and I think I can make a solid wage out of it, not because I think it's the way to become a millionaire. If you can do what you love, stay true to yourself and make enough to live on... :cloud9:

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buttock

buttock

Posted
Posted
Forgive me for breaking up the fun, but I have a serious question for Tim, Nick, and anyone else inherently opposed to pressing -- and I assure you this is not patronizing.

 

If there was a CGC 9.4 book you wanted, and it was unpressed and not improvable by pressing, and it was then pressed with no visible change, resubbed, and came back as a CGC 9.4, would you still object to the book?

 

I would never object to the book. My take is this, 9.4 book unpressed = unrestored, price I will pay, unrestored 9.4 price. 9.4 book pressed = restored, price I will pay, restored 9.4 price (which is ~25% the unrestored price in my mind). I have no problem buying nice restored books with decent eye appeal, I just want to pay the restored price for a restored book. Pretty simple really. If other collectors want to pay unrestored prices for a restored book (in my opinion), good for them, I also have no problem if they want to.

Yes. (thumbs u

 

For me it's not the 'improvement' that's the issue, it's the fact that it's been manipulated.

 

If nothing has changed about the book, how has it been "restored" or "manipulated"? And I understand the ridiculousness of arguing hypotheticals, but I'm just trying to get a better understanding of your view.

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skypinkblu

skypinkblu

Posted
Posted
Forgive me for breaking up the fun, but I have a serious question for Tim, Nick, and anyone else inherently opposed to pressing -- and I assure you this is not patronizing.

 

If there was a CGC 9.4 book you wanted, and it was unpressed and not improvable by pressing, and it was then pressed with no visible change, resubbed, and came back as a CGC 9.4, would you still object to the book?

 

I would never object to the book. My take is this, 9.4 book unpressed = unrestored, price I will pay, unrestored 9.4 price. 9.4 book pressed = restored, price I will pay, restored 9.4 price (which is ~25% the unrestored price in my mind). I have no problem buying nice restored books with decent eye appeal, I just want to pay the restored price for a restored book. Pretty simple really. If other collectors want to pay unrestored prices for a restored book (in my opinion), good for them, I also have no problem if they want to.

Yes. (thumbs u

 

For me it's not the 'improvement' that's the issue, it's the fact that it's been manipulated.

 

If nothing has changed about the book, how has it been "restored" or "manipulated"? And I understand the ridiculousness of arguing hypotheticals, but I'm just trying to get a better understanding of your view.

 

You know what I never quite get...

 

If "nothing is changed" why bother? I mean, if' it's the SAME why give it a higher grade?

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VintageComics

VintageComics

Posted
Posted

Short of stopping pressing all together, how far is anyone going to have to go to please anti-pressing advocates to make them happy? Is there anything else that can be done to satisfy anti pressing advocates?

 

I guess nobody wanted to answer this question?

Well, by qualifying your question with "Short of stopping pressing all together", you've already tried to steer anti-pressers towards some middle ground and thus made the question not really worth answering.

 

But to answer your question, I guess CGC putting a PLOD on books known to be pressed would be a good start.

 

Which is precisely why I didn't answer it.

 

'Short of stopping people being murdered, how would you propose that we stop people being murdered?' doh!

 

 

I don't understand what is so doh! about the question.

 

Since pressing is not going to stop I thought qualifying it as such was being realistic.

 

Anything else is not going to be.

 

It used to be that people asked for disclosure. Now that is not enough.

 

Since pressing is not going to stop, what would make you happy?

 

I thought it was a fair questions and at the heart of this entire thread.

 

 

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gaz973

gaz973

Posted
Posted

 

 

That's really what it all boils down to. I press now for that exact reason. Set aside all of the histrionics, soapbox preaching and ethical debates...when someone buys a 9.4 from me for $800, presses it into a 9.6 and flips it for $3000, things need to change in my selling model. Period. Nobody likes playing the sucker or the mark, and I'd rather have that profit riding on my hip. I don't know too many people in this hobby, collectors or dealers, who are in this to make other people money.

 

lol

 

No, there is no NEED for your selling model to change. Selling books at a price that you are comfortable with and provides you with a profit does not make one a "sucker" or a "mark" if someone else makes more money on it, manipulated or otherwise. You've just gone over the edge to bitter and feeling entitled, and at such a young age.

 

I don't feel like either a 'sucker' or a 'mark'. I know what I believe and I'm quite happy to leave money on the table...and watch others snatch that money up...if it means staying true to what I believe.

 

Sure, I'll be formally 'in the business' come the end of the first quarter but I'm 'in the business' because I love comics, and I think I can make a solid wage out of it, not because I think it's the way to become a millionaire. If you can do what you love, stay true to yourself and make enough to live on... :cloud9:

 

Well, it's nice to know that not everyone in the world will sell out their principles for extra money. My custom and money will always go first to a seller that demonstrates that he has strong ethics.

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joeypost

joeypost

Posted
Posted

Short of stopping pressing all together, how far is anyone going to have to go to please anti-pressing advocates to make them happy? Is there anything else that can be done to satisfy anti pressing advocates?

 

I guess nobody wanted to answer this question?

Well, by qualifying your question with "Short of stopping pressing all together", you've already tried to steer anti-pressers towards some middle ground and thus made the question not really worth answering.

 

But to answer your question, I guess CGC putting a PLOD on books known to be pressed would be a good start.

 

Which is precisely why I didn't answer it.

 

'Short of stopping people being murdered, how would you propose that we stop people being murdered?' doh!

 

 

 

 

I don't understand what is so doh! about the question.

 

Since pressing is not going to stop I thought qualifying it as such was being realistic.

 

Anything else is not going to be.

 

It used to be that people asked for disclosure. Now that is not enough.

 

Since pressing is not going to stop, what would make you happy?

 

I thought it was a fair questions and at the heart of this entire thread.

 

 

Murder is an unaccepted practice in society.

 

According to CGC's rules pressing is accepted. In the eyes of CGC no foul has been done. To ask them to change the stance they have always taken after 10 years of business is just not going to happen. The same way society will never accept murder.

 

To actually stop murder is impossible as we know it. We would have to isolate or eliminate anyone who has murdered and then deal with the new ones on a case by case basis.

 

While drastically reducing the murder rate it will never eliminate it. And this is with using the most drastic measure.

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Flaming_Telepath

Flaming_Telepath

Posted
Posted
If nothing has changed about the book, how has it been "restored" or "manipulated"? And I understand the ridiculousness of arguing hypotheticals, but I'm just trying to get a better understanding of your view.

 

Just because CGC doesn't change the grade doesn't mean that it hasn't changed. Maybe the indent on the back cover isn't there any more? Perhaps that corner bend has disappeared? Maybe the book is of much better quality, but CGC are going through a 'harsh' period, whereas when it was first graded, they were 'loose'?

 

Either way, it's not as it was before it was 'worked on' and the condition it was naturally in has been altered. Buy the book, not the label. (thumbs u

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Flaming_Telepath

Flaming_Telepath

Posted
Posted

Short of stopping pressing all together, how far is anyone going to have to go to please anti-pressing advocates to make them happy? Is there anything else that can be done to satisfy anti pressing advocates?

 

I guess nobody wanted to answer this question?

Well, by qualifying your question with "Short of stopping pressing all together", you've already tried to steer anti-pressers towards some middle ground and thus made the question not really worth answering.

 

But to answer your question, I guess CGC putting a PLOD on books known to be pressed would be a good start.

 

Which is precisely why I didn't answer it.

 

'Short of stopping people being murdered, how would you propose that we stop people being murdered?' doh!

 

 

 

 

I don't understand what is so doh! about the question.

 

Since pressing is not going to stop I thought qualifying it as such was being realistic.

 

Anything else is not going to be.

 

It used to be that people asked for disclosure. Now that is not enough.

 

Since pressing is not going to stop, what would make you happy?

 

I thought it was a fair questions and at the heart of this entire thread.

 

 

Murder is an unaccepted practice in society.

 

According to CGC's rules pressing is accepted. In the eyes of CGC no foul has been done. To ask them to change the stance they have always taken after 10 years of business is just not going to happen. The same way society will never accept murder.

 

To actually stop murder is impossible as we know it. We would have to isolate or eliminate anyone who has murdered and then deal with the new ones on a case by case basis.

 

While drastically reducing the murder rate it will never eliminate it. And this is with using the most drastic measure.

 

Joey, you do know that I wasn't comparing pressing to murder, don't you? doh!

 

I was asked what would make me happy, but couldn't give the answer I wanted to. I used an extreme example to show that you can't ask somebody what they really want, but then take what they really want off the table, because compromise is built into the response and the response is already censored.

 

'Leading the witness, your honour.'

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