How in the world did this go unnoticed???

[arexcrooke]

I posted this many years ago:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=315487#Post315487

 

I still think it is a viable thing, although in those early days the thread kind of degenerated (unlike today - yeah right! )

 

I also posted a similar idea that was quickly shot down by Steve Borock. He explained that collectors do not want their books marked.

So, just to keep up,... collectors would hate a tiny restorer's mark visible under UV light, but then those same collectors "don't care" about every non-additive trick in the book?

 

Knowing collector's "do not want their books marked " didn't seem to slow their roll with that $ig $eries concept.

In all fairness there is a difference, and i am sure you realize it, between having your book marked with whatever internally (or not have your books slabbed) or making the choice to have your books signed by someone of your own choice

[Davenport]

I posted this many years ago:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=315487#Post315487

 

I still think it is a viable thing, although in those early days the thread kind of degenerated (unlike today - yeah right! )

 

I also posted a similar idea that was quickly shot down by Steve Borock. He explained that collectors do not want their books marked.

So, just to keep up,... collectors would hate a tiny restorer's mark visible under UV light, but then those same collectors "don't care" about every non-additive trick in the book?

 

Knowing collector's "do not want their books marked " didn't seem to slow their roll with that $ig $eries concept.

In all fairness there is a difference, and i am sure you realize it, between having your book marked with whatever internally (or not have your books slabbed) or making the choice to have your books signed by someone of your own choice

I do realize it, and it taking was a cheap shot. The ridiculousness just seemed to match the reasoning against a UV-visible restorer's mark. I probably should've editied it out. But, wow, sometimes the leaps in logic used to justify the book tampering phenomenon are...spectacular.

[kc120us]

This was my original idea and post back in '06

 

What do you think about a Grading Report?

 

This is something I've been thinking about for a while and, with all the threads concerning restoration definitions and CGC grading policies, I thought I'd throw this out there and see what everyone thought. First a little background, I've been collecting comics for over 25 years, I collect what I love and love what I collect. I am a collector not a dealer. I think I've learned quite a bit about the hobby but am by no means an expert. I had stopped collecting back in the mid 90's for a vareity of reasons and have CGC to thank for bringing me back. I had submitted my collection to CGC for grading a couple of years ago and, in the process, rediscovered my passion for comics. Now, as I said, I had collected for many years but never gave a real thought about condition or grade. When I found CGC, I was so excited. They introduced me to the importance of grade, condition and preservation. But enough about me. This thread is about an idea.

 

I believe in the CGC product and I believe in their attempt to even the playing field and improve confidence for the collector and the dealer. But it is not a perfect product, there are flaws. Flaws dissected in these forums. CGC's grading standards, restoration detection (what is and what is not restoration?), and information among others. As I have thought about these, reading the many threads here and listening to each side debate the problems, I have begun to wonder if the problem lies not with CGC but with the nature of the processes involved. Grading, by its very nature, is subjective. One man's 9.4 is another's 9.2 and so on.Then, there is restoration and all the problems associated with it. Perhaps the biggest is that we don't even have a proper definition for it. One that we can all agree on. Lastly, there is information or the lack of it. By lack of information, I refer to the CGC label that is encapsulated with every comic. Looking at the current label what does it tell you about the comic? It tells me the title, publisher, date published and issue number. It tells me the artist and writer, any character appearances or special info regarding the story or publication uniqueness. While all good, I can get this info from pretty much any comic book resource. What does it tell me about this particular book? It tells the numeric grade that three of CGC's graders have agreed upon. It gives me a description of page quality. If the label is either green or purple, it tells me what special defect was found or the work that was performed on it. There is also a serial number that identifies it and can be used to access the grader's notes for that book. But from what I've heard, those notes are sparse in detail. (I've never called for any of the grader's notes, so if I'm wrong, please correct me).

 

This is where the first part of my idea comes in to play. Simply put, we need more information. How was this grade arrived at? What specfic defects were found? List them all. What work if any was detected? List it all. Whether it is considered restoration or not. List it all. Let the consumers, be they dealer or collector, know everything you found and how you came about your conclusions. Now, obviously, all this data will not fit on such a small label. So, what I'm suggesting is that CGC develop a Grading Report. A single or multi page report that gives the reader a concise view of what the CGC crew discovered. Such a report should include but not be limited to the following: Date of certification, any and all defects found, any and all restoration or conservation work detected, and a summation of all the graders opinions as to why they arrived at the grade they did. This information will give the consumer a much better insight into the comic they are considering purchasing.The report should be printed and included along with the slabbed comic and also be accessible via the CGC or Collector's Society web site. I first thought of this when I bought an engagement ring for my girlfriend and the jeweler gave me a detailed report of the diamond I had just purchased. This report included the diamond's cut,color and clarity along with its history. I thought certified comic grading could also benefit from such detail.

 

But, in order for it to work, all information must be disclosed. Otherwise, its integrity will suffer. By listing all this information in the report, label designations such as restored or qualified might become superfluous. And it might also settle some of the debate going on about why this book is in a purple label and that book is in a blue. List all the data for a given book and let the consumer decide. Whether pressing is restoration or not, if the comic has been pressed, list it in the report. Let the consumer decide. By not listing this information, you weaken the consumer's power and the integrity of the slabbed comic. Now, one side note that must be stated, any work that is listed must be detected. And by detection I mean the proof must be either seen through physical evidence or deduced from other physical signs or clues. It should not be guessed. List all physical evidence that is found and state any conclusions deduced from the evidence, provided it is substantial enough to do so. Otherwise, just list the evidence and let the consumer make the "educated guess" as to what it may be. If the evidence is not substantial enough to prove work has been performed, and the graders believe it may or may not be present, the grader's opinions should still be included, giving the consumer better insight into what the grader found, but should be stated that it is only opinion. Again, this gives the consumer more tools to use to evaluate the comic.

 

The second part of my idea concerns maintaining the integrity of the report. As we all know, slabbed comics are often returned for regrading. The regraded comics get a new serial number and the old serial number is deleted. The slabbed comic is, in essence, reborn. Its certification history is deleted. The slabbed comic gets a new lease on life. This, in my opinion, is a mistake. By erasing its history, the consumer has no idea if the book might have had work performed and subsequently removed. Let the consumer know this information. Maintain the history. However, that is not easy. If a comic is cracked from the slab and submitted without the old label, the CGC crew may not be able to recognize it and simply grade as if it is the first time. To remedy this, I offer the idea to somehow mark the comic in an inconspicious and harmless way. To "tag" it, if you will. The "tag" must be so that it cannot be found through conventional means nor removed. This prevents unscrupulous people from slipping comics thorugh the CGC crew and might also be helpful in detecting pressing; if a book is resubmitted and is suddenly missing some creases it had in the previous grading, It's a safe bet it has been pressed. I grant you that I have no idea if the technology for this is available or if this is even feasible but I think I echo the views of many here who believe that a comic's history (i.e. is it preserved naturally or through artifical manipulation) must be maintained and accessible.

 

That is it in a nutshell. It's not perfect. I'm sure there is a lot I missed. I appreciate any feedback. Any opinions. If I'm off base, let me know. If it has potential, tell me what needs to be improved. I think everyone stands to benefit from such a report. The more you know the better it is. The only people who won't benefit are those who wish such information to remain hidden. It is done in other industries, why not ours? What do you think? If Steve or anyone else from CGC reads this, I hope you will consider some if not all of what I said and keep it in mind when discussing any future changes to the product. I think it can make CGC comic certification, a good product already, even better.

 

Sorry for the long post.

 

Casey

 

This was Steve's respsonse

 

Almost every collector and dealer we have spoken to has said that they do not want CGC putting anything on a comic to, as stated here, "tag it".

 

As to graders notes, I was in what might be the next to last meeting on graders notes being put on the web. At this point in time it will be only comics that are graded from the point of the implementation of the program, but as people call for notes on a book or graders have some free time ( ), they will then be moved to "viewable". As always, graders can only give out notes on a few books as we are very busy grading. This will, probably, only be available for Collectors Society members and member dealers. Also, please remember, many modern comics (aprox. 1990) graded 9.6 and above will not have graders notes.

[FlyingDonut]

ECX7Collection Alex DeLarge GoonChild Jasmine Luke Thomas Hughes Paul Robert Freddie, why don't you take your multiple personalities and shed-load of lies and peddle it all somewhere else?

 

Is this the same guy that trimmed an EC with a pair of scissors, then got a Blue label on it when CGC screwed up? And then he wouldn't return it to CGC when Steve asked him to?

 

That's a lot of knowledge for a guy who signed up January 21, 2010.

[Paratrooper]