How in the world did this go unnoticed???

[Monstro]

[And books that have easily been tracked as pressed? All the mound city resubmits, the Pac Coasts, and the other pedigrees that are so easily identified? Those books would not be guesses, its common knowledge. And if you try and argue that cgc can not be positive they were pressed upon resubmission I may as well sell off my slabs now as I am pretty sure they have grading that blows with the wind.

 

I have no doubt that those books were pressed, but do you want CGC guessing at all the other books?

 

 

Do you want CGC labeling only some books as pressed while others get a clean bill of health because they slip through the system?

 

Think about it.

 

 

Yes I do, because it already happens with trimming.

 

And stop with the 'guessing'...CGC can positively identify a good proportion of pressed books. If they had some sort of tracking in place, they'd also be able to identify books that have been manipulated, so there's some more for the pot.

 

The comparisons between trimming and pressing need to stop.

 

They are not related, they are not analogous to one another.

 

Almost the entire hobby agrees that trimming is destructive and hate it. It is also detectable the majority of the time. It can be positively identified.

 

The hobby is split over the idea of pressing. Further more it is only detectable a small percentage of the time.

 

Even if NASA type technology were used I'd be willing to put money on the fact that detection would not get better than 50/50 because a pressed book *might* exhibit exposure to heat/humidity/pressure, but a book can be exposed to all of those things in more instances than just pressing, and a machine (unless it is a time machine) will never detect intent.

 

We just can't draw any comparisons or analogies between trimming and pressing. It's a dead end street.

 

 

Im with Nick here. Manipulation is manipulation. Your perception of what is acceptable, or the hobby as a whole bears no weight. One is changing the appearance of the book, while the other is also changing the appearance of a book. It's apples to apples roy.

 

Equating trimming with pressing is laughable.

 

Almost as ridiculous (but not quite I think) as trivialising murder and comparing that to pressing. Now that is x 10

 

Hey, Thomas, you loathsome squirming scrotum, you!

 

As I've been saying for a few days, aren't you banned, or something?

 

For being a general and stuff?

 

Whoever you are, or think you are?, you could try and refrain from being the keyboard-tough CGC bashing dirty old man for a change, you may find you like it.

There again maybe not.

I'm sorry you were bullied at school, but that's really not my fault.

You have a great weekend now, I hear Kelly Brook is to be found on a shopping channel somewhere.

 

Alright, now you've really gone to far.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

So to argue that Most of the time are good enough results for one and not the other is ridonkulous.

 

Pat, we're not talking most of the time for pressing.

 

We are talking about SOME of the time pressing is detectable and MOST of the time trimming is detectable.

 

There is a really big difference between the two.

 

People will respect an educated decision that is mostly correct. They won't respect an educated decision that is mostly incorrect.

 

I can't believe anyone would even debate this.

 

 

But Roy, If I asked you before the Ewert incident, would you have said they can detect trimming 100%? Probably most people would say yes or very near 100%. After Ewert not so good, and right after Ewert you had a well known dealer slide a trimmed Ewert book back through CGC a second time and get a blue label. This was during the time when CGC was on a tight watch. What was learned from the Ewert incident?

 

#1 Only trim books that have no scan record (this it how he really got caught).

#2 Improve your trimming technique

 

Back in business. Saying CGC can detect almost all trimming almost 100% is just wrong.

One of the most rellevant posts here, and just looked over. Which coincidentally backs up my statement that CGC would have just as good of luck finding trimmed books as pressed books. A known trimmed book gets through while Namisgrs OO book gets the PLOD. (thumbs u

[whisp]

I tried to get more detailed info on how they detect trimmed books but didn't get much of a reply. I could see books that have overhang being trimmed with the right equipment and not being able to detect it.

[kc120us]

Alright. (thumbs u Delicately, very delicately, ...I'm going to ask if both you guys could comment on those other points on the list?

 

Agree or disagree, I'm just curious what you both think, if those efforts, along with the one you both agreed on, were actually in play. Again, they were:

 

• Ask. Put a yes/no field on the submission form for first-hand knowledge of any alterations prior to submission, plus a space to list them. Alterations listed go on the label and grading notes. Yes, I agree with that
   
  
• Require any books being submitted by a known professional restoration company to have accompanying detailed worksheets for each book. Whatever treatment is on the worksheet goes on the label and grading notes.
  Again, I agree.
   
  
• Call submitters that checked "no" for alterations if an alteration is suspected during examination. Ask again to verify and discuss possibilities for the suspected alteration being present. No, we must assume the submitter is acting truthfully when he checked the "no". He either does not know, or, is lying. Either way his response would be either no or at best I don't know. So then CGC is back to guessing and the phone call is a waste of time.
   
  
• Communicate the prevalence of altering books for "The Crack Out Game" and disparage the practice. Communicate the intent to discern alterations through both fact-gathering and skilled detection, even if it's not 100% foolproof.

huh?

Whadaya think?

 

see my response in bold. Also, since CGC does not consider pressing to be restoration, it is a non issue and thus the reson they feel no need to ask.

[DrWatson]

A known trimmed book gets through while Namisgrs OO book gets the PLOD. (thumbs u

I have seen this mentioned two or three times. All that's known is that Bob didn't trim the book. Only God knows what happened to it one of the at least three times it left his possession.

[namisgr]

This is absurd.

 

Not only does it require a gigantic leap of "faith", but it is disproven by the before and after scans of the book in my possession.

[DrWatson]

About as absurd as getting a paper clip smashed into the front of your book, eh?

[namisgr]

Read my entire post again.

[DrWatson]

This is absurd.

 

Not only does it require a gigantic leap of "faith", but it is disproven by the before and after scans of the book in my possession.

Sorry, I didn't catch your edit.

 

You chose to believe that CGC arbitrarily went from a blue label to a trimmed PLOD label. I believe something happened between the time you gave it to Matt and it was given to the graders at CGC.

 

I'm not sure which one of us is taking the bigger leap.

[Flaming_Telepath]

This is absurd.

 

Not only does it require a gigantic leap of "faith", but it is disproven by the before and after scans of the book in my possession.

Sorry, I didn't catch your edit.

 

You chose to believe that CGC arbitrarily went from a blue label to a trimmed PLOD label. I believe something happened between the time you gave it to Matt and it was given to the graders at CGC.

 

I'm not sure which one of us is taking the bigger leap.

 

I think the more realistic option is that they called it wrong.

 

The other option is that somebody covertly trimmed the book between Bob handing it over to Matt and Matt handing it to CGC. Whilst it's not impossible, it's pretty implausable.

 

Actually, it's pretty ludicrous.

[DrWatson]

This is absurd.

 

Not only does it require a gigantic leap of "faith", but it is disproven by the before and after scans of the book in my possession.

Sorry, I didn't catch your edit.

 

You chose to believe that CGC arbitrarily went from a blue label to a trimmed PLOD label. I believe something happened between the time you gave it to Matt and it was given to the graders at CGC.

 

I'm not sure which one of us is taking the bigger leap.

 

I think the more realistic option is that they called it wrong.

 

The other option is that somebody covertly trimmed the book between Bob handing it over to Matt and Matt handing it to CGC. Whilst it's not impossible, it's pretty implausable.

 

Actually, it's pretty ludicrous.

I don't think anyone implied it was done covertly. I was thinking more accidentally, but since that doesn't fit anyone's agenda, I guess it is a ludicrous thought.

[Mr. Zipper]

 

The other option is that somebody covertly trimmed the book between Bob handing it over to Matt and Matt handing it to CGC. Whilst it's not impossible, it's pretty implausable.

 

Actually, it's pretty ludicrous.

 

If one is to believe Doc Occam, CGC just got it wrong.

 

Which would lead me to further believe trimming detection is not an objective science in all cases... clearly they are making judgement calls in **some** cases.

[Flaming_Telepath]

This is absurd.

 

Not only does it require a gigantic leap of "faith", but it is disproven by the before and after scans of the book in my possession.

Sorry, I didn't catch your edit.

 

You chose to believe that CGC arbitrarily went from a blue label to a trimmed PLOD label. I believe something happened between the time you gave it to Matt and it was given to the graders at CGC.

 

I'm not sure which one of us is taking the bigger leap.

 

I think the more realistic option is that they called it wrong.

 

The other option is that somebody covertly trimmed the book between Bob handing it over to Matt and Matt handing it to CGC. Whilst it's not impossible, it's pretty implausable.

 

Actually, it's pretty ludicrous.

I don't think anyone implied it was done covertly. I was thinking more accidentally, but since that doesn't fit anyone's agenda, I guess it is a ludicrous thought.

 

C'mon Jim, this isn't about an 'agenda'. How do you 'accidentally' trim a book?

 

I'm just trying to apply common sense here.

[Mr. Zipper]

I don't think anyone implied it was done covertly. I was thinking more accidentally, but since that doesn't fit anyone's agenda, I guess it is a ludicrous thought.

 

I could buy a dropped pen accidentally making a color dot... very remote but plausible.

 

But somehow accidentally trimming a book... and the trim is so subtle that CGC can detect it, yet it does not show up on before-and-after scans?

 

As close to impossible as one could get.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

This is absurd.

 

Not only does it require a gigantic leap of "faith", but it is disproven by the before and after scans of the book in my possession.

Its all in the scans. However that certain JIM that I was also bringing up is a known trimmed book in a blue label.

[namisgr]

This is absurd.

 

Not only does it require a gigantic leap of "faith", but it is disproven by the before and after scans of the book in my possession.

Sorry, I didn't catch your edit.

 

You chose to believe that CGC arbitrarily went from a blue label to a trimmed PLOD label. I believe something happened between the time you gave it to Matt and it was given to the graders at CGC.

 

I'm not sure which one of us is taking the bigger leap.

 

I think the more realistic option is that they called it wrong.

 

The other option is that somebody covertly trimmed the book between Bob handing it over to Matt and Matt handing it to CGC. Whilst it's not impossible, it's pretty implausable.

 

Actually, it's pretty ludicrous.

I don't think anyone implied it was done covertly. I was thinking more accidentally, but since that doesn't fit anyone's agenda, I guess it is a ludicrous thought.

 

Since the point seems to have been missed, let me reiterate: the before and after scans indicate the "PLOD" version of the comic is identical to the Universal version. There is no sliver missing from the right edge that was judged to have been trimmed by CGC.

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled discourse on pressing.

[Paratrooper]

I haven't had any booze in two weeks, man...this board is just not the same....

[DrWatson]

Ultimately, I don't care. You guys continue doing what you're doing and I'll continue what I'm doing. I realize I've made my bed and honestly, I don't have any trouble sleeping in it. The lesson learned from this thread is that with some luck and a little effort, there will be very little path crossing in the future.

[Davenport]

Alright. (thumbs u Delicately, very delicately, ...I'm going to ask if both you guys could comment on those other points on the list?

 

Agree or disagree, I'm just curious what you both think, if those efforts, along with the one you both agreed on, were actually in play. Again, they were:

 

• Ask. Put a yes/no field on the submission form for first-hand knowledge of any alterations prior to submission, plus a space to list them. Alterations listed go on the label and grading notes. Yes, I agree with that
   
  
• Require any books being submitted by a known professional restoration company to have accompanying detailed worksheets for each book. Whatever treatment is on the worksheet goes on the label and grading notes.
  Again, I agree.
   
  
• Call submitters that checked "no" for alterations if an alteration is suspected during examination. Ask again to verify and discuss possibilities for the suspected alteration being present. No, we must assume the submitter is acting truthfully when he checked the "no". He either does not know, or, is lying. Either way his response would be either no or at best I don't know. So then CGC is back to guessing and the phone call is a waste of time.
   
  
• Communicate the prevalence of altering books for "The Crack Out Game" and disparage the practice. Communicate the intent to discern alterations through both fact-gathering and skilled detection, even if it's not 100% foolproof.

huh?

Whadaya think?

 

see my response in bold. Also, since CGC does not consider pressing to be restoration, it is a non issue and thus the reason they feel no need to ask.

Thank you for your reply on this. (thumbs u It's just good to see some common ground, even if CGC never ever makes an effort against the phenomenon.

 

The one you marked "huh?" is poorly written, my fault. That one is mainly saying CGC could also take a verbal stance, in conjunction with those efforts you agreed with. A "company position" stated on the their website, press releases and interviews.

 

[Foolkiller]

This is absurd.

 

Not only does it require a gigantic leap of "faith", but it is disproven by the before and after scans of the book in my possession.

Sorry, I didn't catch your edit.

 

You chose to believe that CGC arbitrarily went from a blue label to a trimmed PLOD label. I believe something happened between the time you gave it to Matt and it was given to the graders at CGC.

 

I'm not sure which one of us is taking the bigger leap.

 

It's a huge leap. It'd be like one of us rolling out that Joey trimmed a book before it went to CGC. I know Joey wouldn't trim it and I know Matt wouldn't either.