The Mound City resubmits begin!

[fantastic_four]

Steve, I am sympathetic to your feelings on these manufactured uber-grades, however I'm not sure moving on to something else is the right choice. Don't all collectible hobbies have their problems ?

 

There isn't any market in existence, hobby or otherwise, that doesn't have people trying to fudge, cheat, or steal money from the other people in that market. If money's involved, eventually, you will become disillusioned in one way or another.

[buttock]

 

 

You know, I just realized something...

 

Is FF #3 the first appearance of the Marvel "issue number box"...?

 

I'm guessing not, but seeing the #5 in the old Atlas format has me wondering....

 

 

(1) I think it ties with Millie the Model 107(Dec. 12 '61), Journey Into Mystery 78 (Jan. 2 '62), Linda Carter 4 (Dec. 12 '61), Love Romances 98 (Jan.2 '62), and Teen Age Romance 86 (Jan. 2 '62) (also cover dated March, 1962) for the white box.

 

(2) Other issues cover dated March, 1962 or earlier (Tales to Astonish 29 (Dec. 5 '61), Tales of Suspense 27(Dec. 5 '61), Life With Millie 15 (Dec. 5 '61), Amazing Adult Fantasy 10 (Dec. 5 '61), Kid Colt Outlaw 103 (Dec. 12 '61), Strange Tales 94 (Dec.12 '61), Rawhide Kid 26 (Nov. 9 '61), Gunsmoke Western 63 (sic) (#68 Nov. 2 '61), Kathy 15 (Dec. 5 '61) , Patsy and Hedy 80 (Nov. 9 '61), and Patsy Walker 99 (Dec. 5 '61) have the old style number/month (no box) style.

 

The odd one is Strange Tales 96 (April, 1962), which also has the old style. Curious!

 

I believe the comic historian in me can explain this as a matter of chronology. [Note: I have taken the liberty of adding the newsstand release dates to the book titles above and numbering the paragraphs.]

 

First one needs to recall that Marvel's monthly releases, right up to the introduction of the 20¢ issues, all had two "cover" month dates.

 

The December 1961 releases (the 5th and the 12th) were cover dated either Feb. or Mar. 1962. These months did not correspond with the early or late release dates in the month.

 

The January 1962 releases (the 2nd and the 9th) were cover dated either Mar. or Apr. These months did not correspond with the early or late release dates in the month.

 

The books in paragraph 1 were all released Dec. 12 or later and have the white box.

 

The books in paragraph 2 were all released (with one exception) Dec. 5 or earlier and do not have the white box.

 

Kid Colt 103 (no white box) was released on Dec. 12 but, according to the Marvel Comics Group 1939-1980 index site, it was the 10th issue released that month and Millie the Model 107 (white box) was the 11th. Linda Carter, Student Nurse 4 (white box) was the 12th and last release for December.

 

All issues released after Kid Colt 103 have the white box (excepting ST 95 & 96 --and a single month reversion for FF 5).

 

ST 95 (Jan. 2 '62) and ST 96 (Feb. 8 '62) were a bit of a last gasp as Strange Tales did not use the white box until issue 97 (and FF 5 was an aberration/someone forgot) but all the rest can be explained as chronology.

 

 

Agreed!

[Bomber-Bob]

Obviously the new grades assigned to some of the Mound City books has resulted in anger. In fact I don't think anybody is happy about the new grades except the owner. The early concensus on Mound City was the grades were soft. Now

the resubs are coming back even stronger. Admit it, we're all jealous and mad.

The newfound abundance of many issues in previously unheard of uber grades is affecting the value of all our collections. If you are a dealer, it is affecting the value of your inventory. In spite of this I still love the hobby, I believe in CGC, and I'll use

a pressing service occasionally.

[Hero Restoration]

How do you all tell a book has been resubmited? I mean unless the history has been disclosed how would you know? This as been a question I have been wanting to ask for a while now.

[joeypost]

How do you all tell a book has been resubmited? I mean unless the history has been disclosed how would you know? This as been a question I have been wanting to ask for a while now.

 

Secret Societies exist that scan raw book and all documented slabs. When a new book is entered into the census they compare all existing scans to see if the book has any identifying marks and add these results to another database.

 

This is usually followed by 2-3 thousand posts complaining that someone performed CPR on the book.

[Paratrooper]

How do you all tell a book has been resubmited? I mean unless the history has been disclosed how would you know? This as been a question I have been wanting to ask for a while now.

 

Secret Societies exist that scan raw book and all documented slabs. When a new book is entered into the census they compare all existing scans to see if the book has any identifying marks and add these results to another database.

 

This is usually followed by 2-3 thousand posts complaining that someone performed CPR on the book.

 

It's the Illuminati! Roy can confirm.

[Bomber-Bob]

How do you all tell a book has been resubmited? I mean unless the history has been disclosed how would you know? This as been a question I have been wanting to ask for a while now.

 

The Mound City books were easy as Doug is advertising them as Mound City and

GPA has Mound City stats. In fact, if a resubbed book is from most any Pedigree collection it is an easy trace. Also, there are enough astute eyes on this Board that recognizes certain characteristics of resubbed books. If the book has been resubmitted by the original submitter you would never know.

[kimik]

Obviously the new grades assigned to some of the Mound City books has resulted in anger. In fact I don't think anybody is happy about the new grades except the owner. The early concensus on Mound City was the grades were soft. Now

the resubs are coming back even stronger. Admit it, we're all jealous and mad.

The newfound abundance of many issues in previously unheard of uber grades is affecting the value of all our collections. If you are a dealer, it is affecting the value of your inventory. In spite of this I still love the hobby, I believe in CGC, and I'll use

a pressing service occasionally.

 

I am not jealous, but I am frustrated by what appears to be very soft grading on the resubs for a BSD/industry insider especially after seeing CGC tighten things up (which I was in full favor of) the latter half of last year. I have no issue with pressing and have decided I might as well buy flawed books and press them for my own collection now instead of paying top dollar for books that have most likely been pressed and slabbed by someone else. It is the weak/inconsistent grading on these books from the get go that is the problem and I think it will cause damage to the hobby long term. One of two scenarios will likely occur with the book this "9.4" FF #5 - since it is an overgraded copy the price will be less than the previous sale(s) and affect all of the other BSD's collections/inventories, or the new owner will take a significant loss in the future trying to move the fugliest "9.4" copy in the world and exit the hobby. Either way, the hobby loses IMHO.

[Moondog]

The process for grading books should be boiled down to a step-by-step check list or recipe that so simple and straight forward that my grandmother should be able to use it to grade a book.

I don't see how you can do that as each book will have a different combination of defects. I don't know how you come up with a recipe to cover each and every scenario.

 

It is impossible, but everyone wants people to be perfect, even when they cannot be.

 

Steve, I agree that the "fallibility of people" excuse is legitimate to a certain degree, but at what point does it begin not to hold water? When the difference in value can be thousands and tens of thousands of dollars because of something so subtle as .2 or .4 of a point, doesn't that preclude CGC from taking this position?

 

Absolutely not. We, the collecting community, have, IMHO, the best saftey net (CGC) for buying and selling books, that there has ever been in our hobby. No system is going to be anywhere near the standards we truly HOPE to have, ever. Take a look at our broken system of goverment, banking, stockmarket, FDA, dept of homeland security, car industry, etc.... not to mention how many scamming grading companies in other hobbies that go in and out of biz ever year, just to make a fast buck. At least we know the people at CGC and have these boards (that they give us) to be very vocal and try to make them a better company. We can also use our hard earned dollars to vote, to make an even stronger statement. I remember before CGC, don't you? Forget pressing, an easy 40% of sellers would either do resto to their own books or just ignore it period. Then we had those who would grade as high as they could sell the book at knowing certain defects would be missed by 90% of collectors. I am sure you can name as many if not more than I could. The fake pedigree designations were rampant as well. I think CGC has gotten rid of a huge portion of those people. Not all, but many. That's a huge improvement.

 

Oh, and let's not forget the "grading" gangs at the auction houses comprised of some great people and some bad apples. Those bad apples would miss resto on purpose, grade their friends books higher and the people that the disliked or were in competition with lower. Sometimes they would grade a book lower than it should be, champion others in the room to agree, so that then they could buy the book at auction themselves. So much less impartiality back then. Weist and I talk about this all the time.

 

And give us all a little peek behind the scenes. When a spectacular book comes in, do the graders say to themselves, "Wow, I've never seen one of these in such nice shape before!"

 

Yes, it does.

 

I would imagine they do, since they're all collectors too. This "Wow Factor" I believe can lead to more lenient grades. Not on purpose - but just because they don't have a previous book to compare it to.

 

I am sure that I, along with others at CGC, have made that mistake (I would love to get back a couple of books I finalized), but grading hundreds of books a day and keeping a human element in the mix, that is going to happen once in awhile.

 

What's it like in these rare (and cool!) cases?

 

We took a good long look to make sure and TRY that we were not doing that. I believe that they do thye same today. That's the reason for three graders, and sometimes on a big book, four or five graders.

 

Hope you have a great new year Gary!

 

Thanks, Steve. Appreciate the information and candor. And a great to 2010 to you and yours.

[fantastic_four]

How do you all tell a book has been resubmited? I mean unless the history has been disclosed how would you know? This as been a question I have been wanting to ask for a while now.

 

Umm...because you saw the same book already in a holder with a different grade on it...the answer's so simple I feel like I must be misunderstanding the question.

[VintageComics]

How do you all tell a book has been resubmited? I mean unless the history has been disclosed how would you know? This as been a question I have been wanting to ask for a while now.

 

Secret Societies exist that scan raw book and all documented slabs. When a new book is entered into the census they compare all existing scans to see if the book has any identifying marks and add these results to another database.

 

This is usually followed by 2-3 thousand posts complaining that someone performed CPR on the book.

 

It's the Illuminati! Roy can confirm.

 

The Illuminati are not real. Elvis is undercover. There is no mafia.

 

[Tsimanga]

I don't see what all the hoopla's about...

 

Everyone knew that NONE of the Mound City books were pressed prior to auction... people showed up, smart ones in person, and picked out all the best books that they felt were either undergraded or could be upgraded with a pressing. Can't get all worked up because Doug has a great eye for that.. should have bought the books yourself and done the same thing...

 

About pressing... I just submitted my first book to be pressed to Brent at Quality comics.. it was a great looking Marvel Mystery Comics #88... but it had a big problem. The back was all wrinkly and wavy.. it was probably a 5.0 because of that... well now it just got graded a 7.5.. and not only is it worth more, it's a much better looking book...

 

Not all books can be improved with pressing. On obvious ones like mine it's simple, but other than that it takes a good eye to find the right ones. In the future I have others I will press also that need it. Why keep a comic ugly when it can be made much more presentable for 20-30 bucks?

 

BTW - I'm also kicking myself in the for not buying that JIM 85 as I fell asleep during the auction.... I'm sure we can all look at in in Dougs vault though for the next ten years )

[tth2]

In the future I have others I will press also that need it. Why keep a comic ugly when it can be made much more presentable for 20-30 bucks?

Why not just slap a mint photocopy cover over it and make it even more presentable for 10 cents?

[paperheart]

In the future I have others I will press also that need it. Why keep a comic ugly when it can be made much more presentable for 20-30 bucks?

Why not just slap a mint photocopy cover over it and make it even more presentable for 10 cents?

 

why woo a virgin when you can have a professional for an extra 20-30 bucks?

[Monstro]

I don't see what all the hoopla's about...

 

Everyone knew that NONE of the Mound City books were pressed prior to auction... people showed up, smart ones in person, and picked out all the best books that they felt were either undergraded or could be upgraded with a pressing. Can't get all worked up because Doug has a great eye for that.. should have bought the books yourself and done the same thing...

 

About pressing... I just submitted my first book to be pressed to Brent at Quality comics.. it was a great looking Marvel Mystery Comics #88... but it had a big problem. The back was all wrinkly and wavy.. it was probably a 5.0 because of that... well now it just got graded a 7.5.. and not only is it worth more, it's a much better looking book...

 

Not all books can be improved with pressing. On obvious ones like mine it's simple, but other than that it takes a good eye to find the right ones. In the future I have others I will press also that need it. Why keep a comic ugly when it can be made much more presentable for 20-30 bucks?

 

BTW - I'm also kicking myself in the for not buying that JIM 85 as I fell asleep during the auction.... I'm sure we can all look at in in Dougs vault though for the next ten years )

 

Just one mans opinion, but to me that is where pressing is a good thing, fixing an otherwise nice book except for a major flaw as you mentioned. Not trying to press a 9.6 into a 9.8

[trmoore54]

Glad to see people are tracking this . This is a wonderful hobby we`re in, isn`t it?

 

People are tracking it, but few seem to care. Every dealer, auction house and small-time flipper is hitting 70 home runs on 'roids and slapping each other on the back as they trot around the bases on the way to home bank, uh, I mean, home plate. Higher grades, more money, high-fives and all around.

 

And people think *I'm* crazy.

 

I'm with you, Tim - this just makes me

 

Sorry Gene, but using steroids in your agruement is utter non-sense.

Makes sense to me

 

It would.

You look at things differently as you're pro-pressing Take off the glasses

 

 

Stop being ing a Mets Fans for a minute and listen.

 

Pressing= Legal and it's out in the open for everyone to use the service

 

Steroids= illegal-you are adding material to your body that was never there before.

 

You're starting to repeat yourself...

[hikeeba-migration]

How do you all tell a book has been resubmited? I mean unless the history has been disclosed how would you know? This as been a question I have been wanting to ask for a while now.

 

Umm...because you saw the same book already in a holder with a different grade on it...the answer's so simple I feel like I must be misunderstanding the question.

 

Don't sweat it. This is the guy that butchers books and thinks he's performing "awesome restoration" on them. Not much gets through to his gray matter.

[trmoore54]

I always stumble onto these threads late, but I guess I'm surprised no one suggested the following...if you were completely cynical about it and one prone to conspiracy theories...or perhaps what others might refer to as a smart "business plan" one might suspect that CGC, knowing that the Mound City people were not comic people, would not have any opinion about their books being "softly graded"...hell, they were gonna make a mint anyway...but that the savvy boardies and big collectors who would bid on these books would spot a -load of resubmit and pressing candidates, which sounds like the case, for resubmittal and cha-ching mega CGC fees...

 

Just sayin...

[Old Fashion PB and J]

[Flaming_Telepath]

I always stumble onto these threads late, but I guess I'm surprised no one suggested the following...if you were completely cynical about it and one prone to conspiracy theories...or perhaps what others might refer to as a smart "business plan" one might suspect that CGC, knowing that the Mound City people were not comic people, would not have any opinion about their books being "softly graded"...hell, they were gonna make a mint anyway...but that the savvy boardies and big collectors who would bid on these books would spot a -load of resubmit and pressing candidates, which sounds like the case, for resubmittal and cha-ching mega CGC fees...

 

Just sayin...

 

Surely that should only work if the books were harshly graded in the first place, Tom?

 

And many still believe that there were a lot of 'gifts' in the grades this collection received.