Pedigree Auction Sales and Relistings. Legit?

[8milemax]

Either a seller (Pedigree in this instance) reports ALL public sales or they report none.

Impossible for George to control, and exceedingly difficult for him to determine.

 

Yep, it is typically impossible for George to determine what's being reported and what's not, except in the case of Pedigree since Doug just admitted here that he deliberately withholds "low" sales data. And in this case, since there's no issue of needing to verify it, George should toss out all of Pedigree's sales data. (thumbs u

 

Great Ideal! Don't allow Doug sales on GPA.

And that would help how, precisely?

 

Doug shilling wouldn't show up on GPA. Wouldn't that be a good reason

[fantastic_four]

Maybe some of the "kvetching" is bringing awareness. It actually might make someone remember and think twice before their next action, and the "someone" might refer to the person supplying the data, and or using it:) .

 

Definitely it's raising awareness...but lacking a great solution...like pressing, all it will do is leave everyone pissed off at each other and the hobby.

 

Suppose it's necessary and inevitable nonetheless, may as well enjoy it!

[sborock]

Been reading this thread for awhile now..............

 

For the record, at Heritage Auctions and ComicMarket, we send GPA the data of every comic sold whether it is the highest or lowest price ever paid.

 

We do not "hold back" sales data at the request of a buyer. Heck, we leave up every sale, even low sales, on our site, too. We let the market set itself. We also do not shill bid, as it has been suggested here as I, and HA, have mentioned here many times.

 

We do sometimes purchase books ourselves for resale later, but we place those bids well in advance of the auction without any knowledge of other bidders’ limits, and we never shill bid or falsely report items as sold. We purchase these items only because we would buy them at that price, same as any other company that sells comics.

 

Shill bidding is bidding without the intent of buying the item, simply to run up a price so that the winner is forced to pay more.

 

.......I can tell you from personal observation that Heritage is all about avoiding any sort of shill bidding or GPA manipulation.

-Steve

[DrWatson]

Either a seller (Pedigree in this instance) reports ALL public sales or they report none.

Impossible for George to control, and exceedingly difficult for him to determine.

 

Yep, it is typically impossible for George to determine what's being reported and what's not, except in the case of Pedigree since Doug just admitted here that he deliberately withholds "low" sales data. And in this case, since there's no issue of needing to verify it, George should toss out all of Pedigree's sales data. (thumbs u

 

Great Ideal! Don't allow Doug sales on GPA.

And that would help how, precisely?

 

Doug shilling wouldn't show up on GPA. Wouldn't that be a good reason

Are you going to eliminate eBay shilling as well? What about Heritage and Clink? Besides, I'm still not convinced Doug's auctions are shilled. There's a difference in selectively reporting data (which I do not agree with) and shilling.

[MrBedrock]

Anyhow, if you don't like dealing with dealers, then there's always Ebay and other collectors.

I am a dealer. I don't even like dealing with myself.

[DrWatson]

Anyhow, if you don't like dealing with dealers, then there's always Ebay and other collectors.

I am a dealer. I don't even like dealing with myself.

I can understand that. I bet it makes you feel dirty.

[Sal]

I agree with this.

You can't disregard a sale just because. Makes no sense to me. It's like a batter in baseball saying" forget that at bat, I wasn't focused."

A sale is a sale and should be reported. If that lowers the average, so be it.

 

It does make GPA's data less accurate and reliable.

 

YES YES YES YES YOU'RE RIGHT. But you're complaining about the sky being blue when you with it were red--there's nothing anyone can do about this. Like pressing, this issue has no good resolution...move it along, nothing to see here! No need to derail the thread on an issue that could go for another 100 pages itself.

Sorry, FF...but that is complete and total defeatist horse mess.

 

I will be contacting George about this...and if this is what's going on, I will be cancelling my subscription to GPA. I like George and the idea of GPA. But if dealers are openly allowed to manipulate the sales data...then what the hell is the point?

 

I swear...the more I learn about this hobby, the more disgusted I get with it.

 

My take....and bear in mind that I DO NOT report to GPA....

 

There is no reason to be disgusted with the hobby.

 

George can only get data by cooperating with sellers. If you think they only way in which GPA is useful is if the data is complete, then you will never be satisfied. I made over 2000 sales of CGC graded books last year and none were reported. Many of the books sold for over GPA, many sold at GPA, some sold for less than GPA. It doesn't make the data presented any more or less accurate. If you need to know every sale to use GPA, then you are using it incorrectly. It gives you accurate data. It does not and will not ever give you complete data. The fact that is it incomplete, does not make what is reported any more or less accurate. It is not meant to tell you what price you should pay on any book.

 

Things which factor in to price which is not reported in GPA data.

1. seller reputation - especially on ebay

2. seller presentation - quality of scan, information provided, time auction ends

3. hammer price and shipping fees(customer realistically pays the full price for the book, including all the fees)

4. eye appeal and general appearance of the book, centering, color strike, presence of any odd defects which could detract from the saleability of the book(such as grease pencil, writing, date stamps, fading, dust shadows, etc)

5. page quality

 

All of these things greatly affect the price of a book and most books will affected by some of these conditions in one way or another..

 

there's a pretty sizable difference between not reporting any sales at all, and cherry-picking which sales you report.

 

one just removes all data points from one seller, while the other skews the data towards higher prices.

 

 

just saying.

[8milemax]

Either a seller (Pedigree in this instance) reports ALL public sales or they report none.

Impossible for George to control, and exceedingly difficult for him to determine.

 

Yep, it is typically impossible for George to determine what's being reported and what's not, except in the case of Pedigree since Doug just admitted here that he deliberately withholds "low" sales data. And in this case, since there's no issue of needing to verify it, George should toss out all of Pedigree's sales data. (thumbs u

 

Great Ideal! Don't allow Doug sales on GPA.

And that would help how, precisely?

 

Doug shilling wouldn't show up on GPA. Wouldn't that be a good reason

Are you going to eliminate eBay shilling as well? What about Heritage and Clink? Besides, I'm still not convinced Doug's auctions are shilled. There's a difference in selectively reporting data (which I do not agree with) and shilling.

 

I thought C link does not report the sales to GPA? What do you think Doug was doing?

[fantastic_four]

Anyhow, if you don't like dealing with dealers, then there's always Ebay and other collectors.

I am a dealer. I don't even like dealing with myself.

I can understand that. I bet it makes you feel dirty.

 

It shouldn't make you feel dirty. Dealing with yourself is a part of the hobby, and perhaps it should be taught!

 

[buttock]

And to think people used to ask me why I switched my collecting to almost entirely Original Art over 15 years ago.

 

All this kinda stuff sort of answers the question by itself.

 

Yeah. The OA market is pure.

 

I have been collecting both comics and OA for 20+ years and the best advice I can give is "caveat emptor." Based on what I've learned myself and from others about a number of other hobbies that same advice is universally useful. Don't assume that because the item in question is a thing of beauty that the normal rules of commerce will be suspended.

 

Agreed. My intent wasn't to degrade the OA market, but to point out that there are shenanigans all over the place, just different kinds of shenanigans.

[seanfingh]

 

 

This place is hilarious. There was a thread no more than 7 or 8 months ago, where Roy was talking about "Selective Reporting" to GPA. He got absolutely torched by me and others. I wonder where some of the players in this thread came down on this issue then?

[Domo Arigato]

Maybe some of the "kvetching" is bringing awareness. It actually might make someone remember and think twice before their next action, and the "someone" might refer to the person supplying the data, and or using it:) .

 

Definitely it's raising awareness...but lacking a great solution...like pressing, all it will do is leave everyone pissed off at each other and the hobby.

 

Suppose it's necessary and inevitable nonetheless, may as well enjoy it!

Some of you seem to be saying if you can't fix every single problem and make something absolutely perfect...then you shouldn't bother fixing any of the problems.

 

I don't agree with that and never will. Doug has admitted to manipulating the data he reports to GPA. George can address and fix this particular issue...and I believe he should.

[DrWatson]

Either a seller (Pedigree in this instance) reports ALL public sales or they report none.

Impossible for George to control, and exceedingly difficult for him to determine.

 

Yep, it is typically impossible for George to determine what's being reported and what's not, except in the case of Pedigree since Doug just admitted here that he deliberately withholds "low" sales data. And in this case, since there's no issue of needing to verify it, George should toss out all of Pedigree's sales data. (thumbs u

 

Great Ideal! Don't allow Doug sales on GPA.

And that would help how, precisely?

 

Doug shilling wouldn't show up on GPA. Wouldn't that be a good reason

Are you going to eliminate eBay shilling as well? What about Heritage and Clink? Besides, I'm still not convinced Doug's auctions are shilled. There's a difference in selectively reporting data (which I do not agree with) and shilling.

 

I thought C link does not report the sales to GPA? What do you think Doug was doing?

I don't know what Doug was doing, but let's fry his just to be safe.

[Sal]

 

This place is hilarious. There was a thread no more than 7 or 8 months ago, where Roy was talking about "Selective Reporting" to GPA. He got absolutely torched by me and others. I wonder where some of the players in this thread came down on this issue then?

 

consider the source.

 

 

see what i did there?

[Dale Roberts]

I agree with this.

You can't disregard a sale just because. Makes no sense to me. It's like a batter in baseball saying" forget that at bat, I wasn't focused."

A sale is a sale and should be reported. If that lowers the average, so be it.

 

It does make GPA's data less accurate and reliable.

 

YES YES YES YES YOU'RE RIGHT. But you're complaining about the sky being blue when you with it were red--there's nothing anyone can do about this. Like pressing, this issue has no good resolution...move it along, nothing to see here! No need to derail the thread on an issue that could go for another 100 pages itself.

Sorry, FF...but that is complete and total defeatist horse mess.

 

I will be contacting George about this...and if this is what's going on, I will be cancelling my subscription to GPA. I like George and the idea of GPA. But if dealers are openly allowed to manipulate the sales data...then what the hell is the point?

 

I swear...the more I learn about this hobby, the more disgusted I get with it.

 

My take....and bear in mind that I DO NOT report to GPA....

 

There is no reason to be disgusted with the hobby.

 

George can only get data by cooperating with sellers. If you think they only way in which GPA is useful is if the data is complete, then you will never be satisfied. I made over 2000 sales of CGC graded books last year and none were reported. Many of the books sold for over GPA, many sold at GPA, some sold for less than GPA. It doesn't make the data presented any more or less accurate. If you need to know every sale to use GPA, then you are using it incorrectly. It gives you accurate data. It does not and will not ever give you complete data. The fact that is it incomplete, does not make what is reported any more or less accurate. It is not meant to tell you what price you should pay on any book.

 

Things which factor in to price which is not reported in GPA data.

1. seller reputation - especially on ebay

2. seller presentation - quality of scan, information provided, time auction ends

3. hammer price and shipping fees(customer realistically pays the full price for the book, including all the fees)

4. eye appeal and general appearance of the book, centering, color strike, presence of any odd defects which could detract from the saleability of the book(such as grease pencil, writing, date stamps, fading, dust shadows, etc)

5. page quality

 

All of these things greatly affect the price of a book and most books will affected by some of these conditions in one way or another..

 

there's a pretty sizable difference between not reporting any sales at all, and cherry-picking which sales you report.

 

one just removes all data points from one seller, while the other skews the data towards higher prices.

 

 

just saying.

 

Sal,

I am not saying that GPA is inacurrate because "I " don't report data. I am also not saying that it doesn't skew the data higher if sales are cherry picked. I am saying regardless of what is reported, GPA is incomplete, and generally not used as it should be. It is a very useful tool.

 

However most people just look at the highest price if selling and the lowest price if buying, without taking into account how and why any of those figures were reached.

[drbanner]

Either a seller (Pedigree in this instance) reports ALL public sales or they report none.

Impossible for George to control, and exceedingly difficult for him to determine.

 

Yep, it is typically impossible for George to determine what's being reported and what's not, except in the case of Pedigree since Doug just admitted here that he deliberately withholds "low" sales data. And in this case, since there's no issue of needing to verify it, George should toss out all of Pedigree's sales data. (thumbs u

 

Great Ideal! Don't allow Doug sales on GPA.

 

+2

[buttock]

Brent,

 

1. I'm not sure what you mean in statement #1. Where does the price say $0.00 in the auction listing? I do not see this on the site, Brent. When a purchaser asks me to re-list a book he has just won in an auction, I simply change the status in the database from "auction" to "none" (which would put the book back into the live inventory on the site), change the date (to get it to the front) and add in his new list price and change the consignor's name to his.

 

2. I am going to send George a list of the sales (ones that haven't shipped yet as he already has those). The problem is I have to go through each listing and get the CGC cert. #s but I will do it. Plus, to make sure there's no double-reporting, the books that are about to be shipped won't be in there as George will get those emails.

 

3. There were 481 total books in the auction, Brent. The books that didn't meet reserve (there were many) and were re-listed on the main site will no longer appear in the auction listing plus the books that were bought and re-consigned would no longer appear in the auction listings. Unlike the regular site, those books that were paid for and shipped to the customers remain in the auction listings for reference, etc.

 

4. There are definitely a few books that had sold and then re-listed and then sold again in another auction, etc. I am grateful that these customers/consignors decide to sell again through my site than a competitor's. The problem is some of the purchasers who got them at less than current GPA value ask me not to report the sale for obvious reasons and I respect that. If you bought an ASM 14, for example, at $5,000, knowing you got it on the cheap, want that sale to be purposely made public when you are trying to sell it for $9,000?

 

Again, I am going to get George a list of these sales. I had sent the relevant sales data to Scoop and ComicsPriceGuide and will forward it to GPA. Getting him all the other sales and the cert #'s is the hard part.

 

Right. You had 4 options.

 

1) You are shilling up your auctions and buying books back.

2) You are manipulating GPA data by not reporting sales that your buyers don't want you to

3) buyers are buying books back and reconsigning

4) Some combination of the above

 

Looks like you chose #2 and #4.

 

Definitely more palatable than #1.

 

Has he denied that #1 happened yet? #3 could include #1.

 

It could definitely include #1, but that is much more difficult to prove.

 

My point is that he's specifically addressed the others while skirting around #1. Seems like the posts are being read thoroughly, but responded to selectively.

 

Saying "a customer" bought them and reconsigned them is one way to address the accusations without really addressing them. If he considers himself a customer, then he's been truthful without being honest.

 

Not accusing, just observing.

[Sal]

 

there's a pretty sizable difference between not reporting any sales at all, and cherry-picking which sales you report.

 

one just removes all data points from one seller, while the other skews the data towards higher prices.

 

 

just saying.

 

Sal,

I am not saying that GPA is inacurrate because "I " don't report data. I am also not saying that it doesn't skew the data higher if sales are cherry picked. I am saying regardless of what is reported, GPA is incomplete, and generally not used as it should be. It is a very useful tool.

 

However most people just look at the highest price if selling and the lowest price if buying, without taking into account how and why any of those figures were reached.

 

i wasn't saying GPA was inaccurate because you don't report data, either.

 

i agree GPA is an incomplete tool and that it's used in ways in which it was never intended.

 

that being said, if the only sales that get reported are high ones, it will artificially inflate the market for those books, until George can rejigger his output string to include things like PQ and scans

[buttock]

Either a seller (Pedigree in this instance) reports ALL public sales or they report none.

Impossible for George to control, and exceedingly difficult for him to determine.

 

Yep, it is typically impossible for George to determine what's being reported and what's not, except in the case of Pedigree since Doug just admitted here that he deliberately withholds "low" sales data. And in this case, since there's no issue of needing to verify it, George should toss out all of Pedigree's sales data. (thumbs u

 

Great Ideal! Don't allow Doug sales on GPA.

 

+2

 

You can't + your own idea!

[DrWatson]

 

This place is hilarious. There was a thread no more than 7 or 8 months ago, where Roy was talking about "Selective Reporting" to GPA. He got absolutely torched by me and others. I wonder where some of the players in this thread came down on this issue then?

I didn't agree with selectively reporting data then, and I don't agree with it now. However, I'm not ready to throw GPA out the window over it. Overstreet is also susceptible to price manipulation, but no one seems to care about that.