Pedigree Auction Sales and Relistings. Legit?

[divad]

Divad,

 

You can ask George yourself if you'd like. I do not actually have to manually send them any data, unless a book sells "off" of my site (like the TTA #27 9.4 last month). My web designer set it up so that when a book is paid for and shipped, I will click a "book shipped" email in the database to let the buyer know the book is on the way to him (or her). At the same time, an email is auto-generated to the consignor letting him know the item has been shipped and that payment for the book is forthcoming. And, a third email is auto-generated to George at GPA giving him all the book data so he can include it in the GPA report, etc. I believe it gives all the relevant info. he needs, including page quality and CGC cert. #.

 

 

 

I see. I'm glad to see that steps have been taken to insure that only "actual" sales are reported to GPA.

 

I think George and GPA are great, and I am quite happy that they don't include C-Link's "sales" data.

[Dale Roberts]

I agree with this.

You can't disregard a sale just because. Makes no sense to me. It's like a batter in baseball saying" forget that at bat, I wasn't focused."

A sale is a sale and should be reported. If that lowers the average, so be it.

 

It does make GPA's data less accurate and reliable.

 

YES YES YES YES YOU'RE RIGHT. But you're complaining about the sky being blue when you with it were red--there's nothing anyone can do about this. Like pressing, this issue has no good resolution...move it along, nothing to see here! No need to derail the thread on an issue that could go for another 100 pages itself.

Sorry, FF...but that is complete and total defeatist horse mess.

 

I will be contacting George about this...and if this is what's going on, I will be cancelling my subscription to GPA. I like George and the idea of GPA. But if dealers are openly allowed to manipulate the sales data...then what the hell is the point?

 

I swear...the more I learn about this hobby, the more disgusted I get with it.

 

My take....and bear in mind that I DO NOT report to GPA....

 

There is no reason to be disgusted with the hobby.

 

George can only get data by cooperating with sellers. If you think they only way in which GPA is useful is if the data is complete, then you will never be satisfied. I made over 2000 sales of CGC graded books last year and none were reported. Many of the books sold for over GPA, many sold at GPA, some sold for less than GPA. It doesn't make the data presented any more or less accurate. If you need to know every sale to use GPA, then you are using it incorrectly. It gives you accurate data. It does not and will not ever give you complete data. The fact that is it incomplete, does not make what is reported any more or less accurate. It is not meant to tell you what price you should pay on any book.

 

Things which factor in to price which is not reported in GPA data.

1. seller reputation - especially on ebay

2. seller presentation - quality of scan, information provided, time auction ends

3. hammer price and shipping fees(customer realistically pays the full price for the book, including all the fees)

4. eye appeal and general appearance of the book, centering, color strike, presence of any odd defects which could detract from the saleability of the book(such as grease pencil, writing, date stamps, fading, dust shadows, etc)

5. page quality

 

All of these things greatly affect the price of a book and most books will affected by some of these conditions in one way or another..

[qualitycomix]

This is easier James. When I have an auction, I submit a list of all books, serial numbers and links to each auction for the purposes of advertising. You know, when you look up a book in GPA and see the books on sale on ebay, pedigree, quality comix etc right there with that particular issue.

 

So, since George already has all of the auction listings before the auction (on all auction houses that report), he would just have to ensure all data comes in for each book. That would clean up some of this c r a p.

 

You can't report all the sales to him because they won't all go through. How does George know which ones legitimately didn't go through and which ones you're omitting for personal reasons?

 

Of course I mean "you" here in the general, "fill-in-auction-house-name-here" sense. I'm sure you wouldn't do any omitting.

 

You're right that George does not know which buyers didn't pay in an auction.

 

But it would prevent 100+ auctions from not getting reported.

[divad]

What is irritating about expecting a person reporting GPA sales to be honest?

 

Isn't that what this thread's bottom line is all about?

 

If I may borrow from John.

 

Doug shoulda Man'd up and reported the sale whether the buyer likes it or not.

 

 

Well, that's not the "business model"

[comicwiz]

I agree with this.

You can't disregard a sale just because. Makes no sense to me. It's like a batter in baseball saying" forget that at bat, I wasn't focused."

A sale is a sale and should be reported. If that lowers the average, so be it.

 

It does make GPA's data less accurate and reliable.

 

YES YES YES YES YOU'RE RIGHT. But you're complaining about the sky being blue when you with it were red--there's nothing anyone can do about this. Like pressing, this issue has no good resolution...move it along, nothing to see here! No need to derail the thread on an issue that could go for another 100 pages itself.

Sorry, FF...but that is complete and total defeatist horse mess.

 

I will be contacting George about this...and if this is what's going on, I will be cancelling my subscription to GPA. I like George and the idea of GPA. But if dealers are openly allowed to manipulate the sales data...then what the hell is the point?

 

I swear...the more I learn about this hobby, the more disgusted I get with it.

 

This is a contentious point. However, IMHO this situation can be reproduced by an auction/consignment site that is offering pressing. In a hypothetical situation, I win a book from one such site. I do this knowing that the auctioneer/consigner offers pressing services so I ask the consigner/auctioneer to carry out the pressing service, and once completed, relist the book through the same venue.

 

Assuming the site owner does proper reporting, and discloses the sale of the two books to GPA, my question is this: assuming the book eke's out a higher grade after pressing, where is the data point on the GPA site that make's the association to the two distinctly different grades, and the prices achieved by the same book?

 

Not quite sure what you mean by this, Joseph. It is one more real world issue that numbers and data reporting can't address.

As far as GPA is concerned, being in a different grade, it would appear and affect the averages as two different books. I know that sounds crazy, but it really speaks more to the problems inherent in pressing than GPA's or dealer's) handling of the data.

 

I'm not disagreeing with the problem in arbitrary reporting, but what I'm saying is that there are other issues with current reporting. From my perspective, this is another point of consideration that is all the same. If anything, these issues and the data gaps will widen because it all comes down to human trust, and while you see it as a pressing problem, there is just as much wiggle room with arbitrary reporting when pressing enters into the fray. Remember, we are talking about the same dealer, reporting sales for the same books, with two different values The only difference in the pressing scenario is that now the grade is also different from the price the same book achieved. IMHO, validity gets thrown out the window unless there is a point of reference in the reporting that accurately depicts them as the same book.

[Domo Arigato]

Sorry, FF...but that is complete and total defeatist horse mess.

 

No...it's complete and total trying-to-avoid-a-total-thread-derail-mess. I'll link you the other endless complaining threads on this topic if you ask me more nicely than that...if you really wanna drag it back out...can we start another thread?

 

Any topic that has no good resolution yet people complain about it anyway is what irritates me. Could be pressing, GPA under-reporting, shilling, or whatever...if it's out of everyone's control...there's nothing to be gained by complaining about it endlessly. If this is the first time you've considered the issue, it's completely understandable that you think there are solutions...but it'll take a dozens and dozens of pages to get you to the point where you realize there aren't any comprehensive ones that'll make the problem of underreporting go away.

How is it a thread derail? The reporting (or not reporting) of these sales has been a part of the topic since the beginning of this thread. And sorry, but I just don't agree with rolling over and accepting any amount of *spoon* that someone decides they can get away with in this hobby.

 

And it's certainly not out of my control. If George at GPA won't do something about it, then I'll simply speak with my wallet. And for the record...I'll state again that George is a terrific guy and I like the idea of GPA. But if sellers are freely allowed to manipulate the data like this...then it's not for me.

[fantastic_four]

What is irritating about expecting a person reporting GPA sales to be honest?

 

The same thing that's irritating about expecting a person selling comic books to be honest and disclose pressing--nothing. Except it's still gonna happen no matter WHAT I expect...so fretting over other people's greed that I can't control is a waste of time and brain power.

[Domo Arigato]

What is irritating about expecting a person reporting GPA sales to be honest?

The same thing that's irritating about expecting a person selling comic books to be honest and disclose pressing--nothing. Except it's still gonna happen no matter WHAT I expect...so fretting over other people's greed that I can't control is a waste of time and brain power.

Sort of like how complaining about those doing the fretting is?

[fantastic_four]

And it's certainly not out of my control. If George at GPA won't do something about it, then I'll simply speak with my wallet. And for the record...I'll state again that George is a terrific guy and I like the idea of GPA. But if sellers are freely allowed to manipulate the data like this...then it's not for me.

 

Your indignation is understandable...yet if everyone just complained emptily about it, hoping for a solution that's out of George's control...GPA would go away. And that'd be worse than it being there.

[comix4fun]

And to think people used to ask me why I switched my collecting to almost entirely Original Art over 15 years ago.

 

All this kinda stuff sort of answers the question by itself.

 

I thought OA had it own level of issues... stolen art, forgeries etc.

 

 

I don't want to take this too far off topic, but you deserve an answer.

 

Being that they are unique, one of a kind, items it's almost impossible to pass a stolen piece of OA of any significance off to someone. That unique nature of OA also eliminates almost all issues of condition, grade, and the inevitable chariot race to the death that come with getting the "better" copy.

 

I don't think I have come across a forgery of any piece of significance in all these years.

 

There are horrible Shulz, Eisner, etc forgeries on Ebay all the time. They are usually crude sketches and even a newb OA collector could spot them in the dark wearing a blind fold. The skill it takes to create a well-made forgery of an important piece of Comic OA would be better served in the fine art world where the payoff is far larger.

 

The issues that the comic market faces now have been there for the 25 or so years that I have been paying attention to it.

 

This may be a habit for most folks here, but I can't see it being enjoyable when you have to approach it as if you were a CSI Investigator rather than a casual fan.

 

It belies the nature of a hobby (to be fun, relaxing, and enjoyable) if you have to be constantly on your guard and travel around carrying a black light (for example). That was one of the reasons I stopped investing huge amounts of time and money in comics and switched to OA.

 

Once I switched to OA I was able to stop counting spine stresses, measuring corner creases down to the micron, and deciding if the pages were antique white, or egg shell white. Christ, I didn't get into this hobby to start using interior decorator language.

 

I could get back to actually reading and enjoying the writing and artwork within the books themselves and searching for the work of artists I respected and loved. Then if I saw a piece by that artist that I liked I could try to get it. If it didn't work out I could try for another example by that artist or any of 50 more whose work I enjoyed. If a seller or piece doesn't feel right, isn't priced right, isn't right for me I just walk away and look somewhere else. Ahhhh...relaxing.

 

The unexpected upside to switching to almost all OA was that I got to avoid those certain dealers who treated everyone like absolute simply because they had a Cap 1 or Tec 27 on their wall, and watched as everyone still bought from them because they had the books they wanted. It was nice to say goodbye to guys like that forever.

 

Ok, Carry on with the fisticuffs fellas.

 

Best,

Chris

 

[buttock]

And to think people used to ask me why I switched my collecting to almost entirely Original Art over 15 years ago.

 

All this kinda stuff sort of answers the question by itself.

 

Yeah. The OA market is pure.

[buttock]

Brent,

 

1. I'm not sure what you mean in statement #1. Where does the price say $0.00 in the auction listing? I do not see this on the site, Brent. When a purchaser asks me to re-list a book he has just won in an auction, I simply change the status in the database from "auction" to "none" (which would put the book back into the live inventory on the site), change the date (to get it to the front) and add in his new list price and change the consignor's name to his.

 

2. I am going to send George a list of the sales (ones that haven't shipped yet as he already has those). The problem is I have to go through each listing and get the CGC cert. #s but I will do it. Plus, to make sure there's no double-reporting, the books that are about to be shipped won't be in there as George will get those emails.

 

3. There were 481 total books in the auction, Brent. The books that didn't meet reserve (there were many) and were re-listed on the main site will no longer appear in the auction listing plus the books that were bought and re-consigned would no longer appear in the auction listings. Unlike the regular site, those books that were paid for and shipped to the customers remain in the auction listings for reference, etc.

 

4. There are definitely a few books that had sold and then re-listed and then sold again in another auction, etc. I am grateful that these customers/consignors decide to sell again through my site than a competitor's. The problem is some of the purchasers who got them at less than current GPA value ask me not to report the sale for obvious reasons and I respect that. If you bought an ASM 14, for example, at $5,000, knowing you got it on the cheap, want that sale to be purposely made public when you are trying to sell it for $9,000?

 

Again, I am going to get George a list of these sales. I had sent the relevant sales data to Scoop and ComicsPriceGuide and will forward it to GPA. Getting him all the other sales and the cert #'s is the hard part.

 

Right. You had 4 options.

 

1) You are shilling up your auctions and buying books back.

2) You are manipulating GPA data by not reporting sales that your buyers don't want you to

3) buyers are buying books back and reconsigning

4) Some combination of the above

 

Looks like you chose #2 and #4.

 

Definitely more palatable than #1.

 

Has he denied that #1 happened yet? #3 could include #1.

[fantastic_four]

Sort of like how complaining about those doing the fretting is?

 

Terrorism is bad. Don't you just wish it would go away?

 

Snow, too. We need to get rid of snow.

[comix4fun]

And to think people used to ask me why I switched my collecting to almost entirely Original Art over 15 years ago.

 

All this kinda stuff sort of answers the question by itself.

 

Yeah. The OA market is pure.

 

 

Everything is relative my friend.

 

I'd be on top of a mountain in Nepal contemplating the meaning of my navel wearing only a cloth diaper if I wanted complete purity.

 

However, I want my comics too, and compared to the stuff being discussed in this thread OA is the driven snow baby...the driven snow.

[qualitycomix]

Brent,

 

1. I'm not sure what you mean in statement #1. Where does the price say $0.00 in the auction listing? I do not see this on the site, Brent. When a purchaser asks me to re-list a book he has just won in an auction, I simply change the status in the database from "auction" to "none" (which would put the book back into the live inventory on the site), change the date (to get it to the front) and add in his new list price and change the consignor's name to his.

 

2. I am going to send George a list of the sales (ones that haven't shipped yet as he already has those). The problem is I have to go through each listing and get the CGC cert. #s but I will do it. Plus, to make sure there's no double-reporting, the books that are about to be shipped won't be in there as George will get those emails.

 

3. There were 481 total books in the auction, Brent. The books that didn't meet reserve (there were many) and were re-listed on the main site will no longer appear in the auction listing plus the books that were bought and re-consigned would no longer appear in the auction listings. Unlike the regular site, those books that were paid for and shipped to the customers remain in the auction listings for reference, etc.

 

4. There are definitely a few books that had sold and then re-listed and then sold again in another auction, etc. I am grateful that these customers/consignors decide to sell again through my site than a competitor's. The problem is some of the purchasers who got them at less than current GPA value ask me not to report the sale for obvious reasons and I respect that. If you bought an ASM 14, for example, at $5,000, knowing you got it on the cheap, want that sale to be purposely made public when you are trying to sell it for $9,000?

 

Again, I am going to get George a list of these sales. I had sent the relevant sales data to Scoop and ComicsPriceGuide and will forward it to GPA. Getting him all the other sales and the cert #'s is the hard part.

 

Right. You had 4 options.

 

1) You are shilling up your auctions and buying books back.

2) You are manipulating GPA data by not reporting sales that your buyers don't want you to

3) buyers are buying books back and reconsigning

4) Some combination of the above

 

Looks like you chose #2 and #4.

 

Definitely more palatable than #1.

 

Has he denied that #1 happened yet? #3 could include #1.

 

It could definitely include #1, but that is much more difficult to prove.

[Domo Arigato]

And it's certainly not out of my control. If George at GPA won't do something about it, then I'll simply speak with my wallet. And for the record...I'll state again that George is a terrific guy and I like the idea of GPA. But if sellers are freely allowed to manipulate the data like this...then it's not for me.

 

Your indignation is understandable...yet if everyone just complained emptily about it, hoping for a solution that's out of George's control...GPA would go away. And that'd be worse than it being there.

True.

 

And I don't want GPA to go away. I like it and want it to be as accurate as it can be (not perfect...just as accurate as George can make it). And this looks like at least one problem that could be fixed. Either a seller (Pedigree in this instance) reports ALL public sales or they report none.

[COI]

Any topic that has no good resolution yet people complain about it anyway is what irritates me. Could be pressing, GPA under-reporting, shilling, or whatever...if it's out of everyone's control...there's nothing to be gained by complaining about it endlessly. If this is the first time you've considered the issue, it's completely understandable that you think there are solutions...but it'll take a dozens and dozens of pages to get you to the point where you realize there aren't any comprehensive ones that'll make the problem of underreporting go away.

 

The same thing that's irritating about expecting a person selling comic books to be honest and disclose pressing--nothing. Except it's still gonna happen no matter WHAT I expect...so fretting over other people's greed that I can't control is a waste of time and brain power.

 

(thumbs u

 

However, watching other people spend entire work days fretting over these issues is not so much irritating, as it is immensely entertaining to me.

[skypinkblu]

Sort of like how complaining about those doing the fretting is?

 

Terrorism is bad. Don't you just wish it would go away?

 

Snow, too. We need to get rid of snow.

 

Maybe some of the "kvetching" is bringing awareness. It actually might make someone remember and think twice before their next action, and the "someone" might refer to the person supplying the data, and or using it:) .

 

I want to suggest that all non Ebay sales listed on GPA be posted in a separate color.

 

 

Not purple, please!

 

(how was that for positive thinking;)?

[qualitycomix]

And it's certainly not out of my control. If George at GPA won't do something about it, then I'll simply speak with my wallet. And for the record...I'll state again that George is a terrific guy and I like the idea of GPA. But if sellers are freely allowed to manipulate the data like this...then it's not for me.

 

Your indignation is understandable...yet if everyone just complained emptily about it, hoping for a solution that's out of George's control...GPA would go away. And that'd be worse than it being there.

True.

 

And I don't want GPA to go away. I like it and want it to be as accurate as it can be (not perfect...just as accurate as George can make it). And this looks like at least one problem that could be fixed. Either a seller reports ALL public sales or they report none.

 

GPA is awesome. Not nearly perfect due to the human reporting factor, but awesome!

 

And George has made it the best he can make it. The techonology he's incorporated into the site and the depth of data on the site is really amazing.

[divad]

I'd be on top of a mountain in Nepal contemplating the meaning of my navel wearing only a cloth diaper if I wanted complete purity.

 

Wasn't that a Super Bowl ad?