Pedigree Auction Sales and Relistings. Legit?

[comix4fun]

And to think people used to ask me why I switched my collecting to almost entirely Original Art over 15 years ago.

 

All this kinda stuff sort of answers the question by itself.

[marvelcollector]

I agree with this.

You can't disregard a sale just because. Makes no sense to me. It's like a batter in baseball saying" forget that at bat, I wasn't focused."

A sale is a sale and should be reported. If that lowers the average, so be it.

 

It does make GPA's data less accurate and reliable.

 

YES YES YES YES YOU'RE RIGHT. But you're complaining about the sky being blue when you with it were red--there's nothing anyone can do about this. Like pressing, this issue has no good resolution...move it along, nothing to see here! No need to derail the thread on an issue that could go for another 100 pages itself.

 

This does have some validity in my mind. I've always explained to people (a few who have tried on these boards could reference by PM) that GPA is a data point, and as such, a seller should reserve the right to use various data points to arrive at a price.

 

The point about GPA blind spots like date stamps, miswraps or PQ are just some of the ways auction results can explain lows, and books with higher production/page quality achieving highs.

 

However, such blind spots (at least not until now) haven't accounted for any arbitrary decision to opt-out of the need for double-reporting. In the example used, $5,000 is the price realized and paid for (reportable), while the $9,000 is the hypothetical, pie-in-the-sky (which should also be reported should it realize that sale price). I'm not sure this double-standard jives in the same way as resub/pressed books because that discrepancy still has a way of averaging itself out. A distant comparable to what you're suggesting, is when auction results for the same book are accounted for by two different grade assignments (i.e. pressed) and prices.

 

Yes, I think most (reasonable) people understand GPA (or any price guide) is just that - a guide. It can never give an absolute value for anything. And even if it could, it would only be valid for that moment.

 

But one would like to believe that it represents a fair unbaised, unmanipulated snapshot, and that the "data" isn't being cherry picked, in particular by a group that has a vested interest in seeing prices go up.

 

If it's not counting all sales, it's even farther away from the ideal, and really has to be re-evaluated as a guide.

 

[qualitycomix]

In summary,

- Doug is cool .

- Dale and Brent are cool but maybe not with each other ().

- Blazing Bob is always cool (more PR for the Blazing One).

- GPA is skewed but the best we have.

- There are more day traders than collectors participating in auctions.

 

Dale & Brent are cool with each other, at least from my perspective. We can agree to disagree and still be friends. Sometimes disagreements are not disagreements at all, just looking at things from different perspectives.

 

 

[comicwiz]

I agree with this.

You can't disregard a sale just because. Makes no sense to me. It's like a batter in baseball saying" forget that at bat, I wasn't focused."

A sale is a sale and should be reported. If that lowers the average, so be it.

 

It does make GPA's data less accurate and reliable.

 

YES YES YES YES YOU'RE RIGHT. But you're complaining about the sky being blue when you with it were red--there's nothing anyone can do about this. Like pressing, this issue has no good resolution...move it along, nothing to see here! No need to derail the thread on an issue that could go for another 100 pages itself.

Sorry, FF...but that is complete and total defeatist horse mess.

 

I will be contacting George about this...and if this is what's going on, I will be cancelling my subscription to GPA. I like George and the idea of GPA. But if dealers are openly allowed to manipulate the sales data...then what the hell is the point?

 

I swear...the more I learn about this hobby, the more disgusted I get with it.

 

This is a contentious point. However, IMHO this situation can be reproduced by an auction/consignment site that is offering pressing. In a hypothetical situation, I win a book from one such site. I do this knowing that the auctioneer/consigner offers pressing services so I ask the consigner/auctioneer to carry out the pressing service, and once completed, relist the book through the same venue.

 

Assuming the site owner does proper reporting, and discloses the sale of the two books to GPA, my question is this: assuming the book eke's out a higher grade after pressing, where is the data point on the GPA site that make's the association to the two distinctly different grades, and the prices achieved by the same book?

[Flaming_Telepath]

4. The problem is some of the purchasers who got them at less than current GPA value ask me not to report the sale for obvious reasons and I respect that. If you bought an ASM 14, for example, at $5,000, knowing you got it on the cheap, want that sale to be purposely made public when you are trying to sell it for $9,000?

 

You respect that?

 

me.

[Domo Arigato]

I agree with this.

You can't disregard a sale just because. Makes no sense to me. It's like a batter in baseball saying" forget that at bat, I wasn't focused."

A sale is a sale and should be reported. If that lowers the average, so be it.

 

It does make GPA's data less accurate and reliable.

 

YES YES YES YES YOU'RE RIGHT. But you're complaining about the sky being blue when you with it were red--there's nothing anyone can do about this. Like pressing, this issue has no good resolution...move it along, nothing to see here! No need to derail the thread on an issue that could go for another 100 pages itself.

Sorry, FF...but that is complete and total defeatist horse mess.

 

I will be contacting George about this...and if this is what's going on, I will be cancelling my subscription to GPA. I like George and the idea of GPA. But if dealers are openly allowed to manipulate the sales data...then what the hell is the point?

 

I swear...the more I learn about this hobby, the more disgusted I get with it.

 

This is a contentious point. However, IMHO this situation can be reproduced by an auction/consignment site that is offering pressing. In a hypothetical situation, I win a book from one such site. I do this knowing that the auctioneer/consigner offers pressing services so I ask the consigner/auctioneer to carry out the pressing service, and once completed, relist the book through the same venue.

 

Assuming the site owner does proper reporting, and discloses the sale of the two books to GPA, my question is this: assuming the book eke's out a higher grade after pressing, where is the data point on the GPA site that make's the association to the two distinctly different grades, and the prices achieved by the same book?

Apples and oranges compared to blatant data manipulation carried out by a dealer/seller.

[Count]

4. The problem is some of the purchasers who got them at less than current GPA value ask me not to report the sale for obvious reasons and I respect that. If you bought an ASM 14, for example, at $5,000, knowing you got it on the cheap, want that sale to be purposely made public when you are trying to sell it for $9,000?

 

You respect that?

 

me.

 

Why report any numbers if they are below GPA...

 

 

[1koko]

And to think people used to ask me why I switched my collecting to almost entirely Original Art over 15 years ago.

 

All this kinda stuff sort of answers the question by itself.

 

I thought OA had it own level of issues... stolen art, forgeries etc.

[drbanner]

4. The problem is some of the purchasers who got them at less than current GPA value ask me not to report the sale for obvious reasons and I respect that. If you bought an ASM 14, for example, at $5,000, knowing you got it on the cheap, want that sale to be purposely made public when you are trying to sell it for $9,000?

 

You respect that?

 

me.

 

Geez...toss out the low sales and the "great deals" and only report the record and trend-setting (upwards) prices? George needs to dump ALL the Pedigree sales data from GPA if this is how Doug filters it!?!?

[qualitycomix]

Brent,

 

1. I'm not sure what you mean in statement #1. Where does the price say $0.00 in the auction listing? I do not see this on the site, Brent. When a purchaser asks me to re-list a book he has just won in an auction, I simply change the status in the database from "auction" to "none" (which would put the book back into the live inventory on the site), change the date (to get it to the front) and add in his new list price and change the consignor's name to his.

 

2. I am going to send George a list of the sales (ones that haven't shipped yet as he already has those). The problem is I have to go through each listing and get the CGC cert. #s but I will do it. Plus, to make sure there's no double-reporting, the books that are about to be shipped won't be in there as George will get those emails.

 

3. There were 481 total books in the auction, Brent. The books that didn't meet reserve (there were many) and were re-listed on the main site will no longer appear in the auction listing plus the books that were bought and re-consigned would no longer appear in the auction listings. Unlike the regular site, those books that were paid for and shipped to the customers remain in the auction listings for reference, etc.

 

4. There are definitely a few books that had sold and then re-listed and then sold again in another auction, etc. I am grateful that these customers/consignors decide to sell again through my site than a competitor's. The problem is some of the purchasers who got them at less than current GPA value ask me not to report the sale for obvious reasons and I respect that. If you bought an ASM 14, for example, at $5,000, knowing you got it on the cheap, want that sale to be purposely made public when you are trying to sell it for $9,000?

 

Again, I am going to get George a list of these sales. I had sent the relevant sales data to Scoop and ComicsPriceGuide and will forward it to GPA. Getting him all the other sales and the cert #'s is the hard part.

 

Right. You had 4 options.

 

1) You are shilling up your auctions and buying books back.

2) You are manipulating GPA data by not reporting sales that your buyers don't want you to

3) buyers are buying books back and reconsigning

4) Some combination of the above

 

Looks like you chose #2 and #4.

 

Definitely more palatable than #1.

[divad]

I'm not sure how GPA has procured its data reporting process

 

No offense, but this is the truest statement in your entire post.

[fantastic_four]

Sorry, FF...but that is complete and total defeatist horse mess.

 

No...it's complete and total trying-to-avoid-a-total-thread-derail-mess. I'll link you the other endless complaining threads on this topic if you ask me more nicely than that...if you really wanna drag it back out...can we start another thread?

 

Any topic that has no good resolution yet people complain about it anyway is what irritates me. Could be pressing, GPA under-reporting, shilling, or whatever...if it's out of everyone's control...there's nothing to be gained by complaining about it endlessly. If this is the first time you've considered the issue, it's completely understandable that you think there are solutions...but it'll take a dozens and dozens of pages to get you to the point where you realize there aren't any comprehensive ones that'll make the problem of underreporting go away.

[marvelcollector]

I agree with this.

You can't disregard a sale just because. Makes no sense to me. It's like a batter in baseball saying" forget that at bat, I wasn't focused."

A sale is a sale and should be reported. If that lowers the average, so be it.

 

It does make GPA's data less accurate and reliable.

 

YES YES YES YES YOU'RE RIGHT. But you're complaining about the sky being blue when you with it were red--there's nothing anyone can do about this. Like pressing, this issue has no good resolution...move it along, nothing to see here! No need to derail the thread on an issue that could go for another 100 pages itself.

Sorry, FF...but that is complete and total defeatist horse mess.

 

I will be contacting George about this...and if this is what's going on, I will be cancelling my subscription to GPA. I like George and the idea of GPA. But if dealers are openly allowed to manipulate the sales data...then what the hell is the point?

 

I swear...the more I learn about this hobby, the more disgusted I get with it.

 

This is a contentious point. However, IMHO this situation can be reproduced by an auction/consignment site that is offering pressing. In a hypothetical situation, I win a book from one such site. I do this knowing that the auctioneer/consigner offers pressing services so I ask the consigner/auctioneer to carry out the pressing service, and once completed, relist the book through the same venue.

 

Assuming the site owner does proper reporting, and discloses the sale of the two books to GPA, my question is this: assuming the book eke's out a higher grade after pressing, where is the data point on the GPA site that make's the association to the two distinctly different grades, and the prices achieved by the same book?

 

Not quite sure what you mean by this, Joseph. It is one more real world issue that numbers and data reporting can't address.

As far as GPA is concerned, being in a different grade, it would appear and affect the averages as two different books. I know that sounds crazy, but it really speaks more to the problems inherent in pressing than GPA's or dealer's) handling of the data.

[500Club]

Brent,

 

1. I'm not sure what you mean in statement #1. Where does the price say $0.00 in the auction listing? I do not see this on the site, Brent. When a purchaser asks me to re-list a book he has just won in an auction, I simply change the status in the database from "auction" to "none" (which would put the book back into the live inventory on the site), change the date (to get it to the front) and add in his new list price and change the consignor's name to his.

 

2. I am going to send George a list of the sales (ones that haven't shipped yet as he already has those). The problem is I have to go through each listing and get the CGC cert. #s but I will do it. Plus, to make sure there's no double-reporting, the books that are about to be shipped won't be in there as George will get those emails.

 

3. There were 481 total books in the auction, Brent. The books that didn't meet reserve (there were many) and were re-listed on the main site will no longer appear in the auction listing plus the books that were bought and re-consigned would no longer appear in the auction listings. Unlike the regular site, those books that were paid for and shipped to the customers remain in the auction listings for reference, etc.

 

4. There are definitely a few books that had sold and then re-listed and then sold again in another auction, etc. I am grateful that these customers/consignors decide to sell again through my site than a competitor's. The problem is some of the purchasers who got them at less than current GPA value ask me not to report the sale for obvious reasons and I respect that. If you bought an ASM 14, for example, at $5,000, knowing you got it on the cheap, want that sale to be purposely made public when you are trying to sell it for $9,000?

 

Again, I am going to get George a list of these sales. I had sent the relevant sales data to Scoop and ComicsPriceGuide and will forward it to GPA. Getting him all the other sales and the cert #'s is the hard part.

 

Doug,

 

Do the re-consigners of books have you re-list the books at the exact same price the books had been listed at prior to the auctions?

 

Really?

 

And surely there has been enough time to report early and mid 2009 sales to GPA.

[fantastic_four]

Ack, look at all the moral indignation...it's too late, this will now become another "GPA sucks!" thread. Ah well, let it be...at least it's good that this unresolvable topic doesn't recur as often as pressing threads do.

[qualitycomix]

Sorry, FF...but that is complete and total defeatist horse mess.

 

No...it's complete and total trying-to-avoid-a-total-thread-derail-mess. I'll link you the other endless complaining threads on this topic if you ask me more nicely than that...if you really wanna drag it back out...can we start another thread?

 

Any topic that has no good resolution yet people complain about it anyway is what irritates me. Could be pressing, GPA under-reporting, shilling, or whatever...if it's out of everyone's control...there's nothing to be gained by complaining about it endlessly. If this is the first time you've considered the issue, it's completely understandable that you think there are solutions...but it'll take a dozens and dozens of pages to get you to the point where you realize there aren't any comprehensive ones that'll make the problem of underreporting go away.

 

This is easier James. When I have an auction, I submit a list of all books, serial numbers and links to each auction for the purposes of advertising. You know, when you look up a book in GPA and see the books on sale on ebay, pedigree, quality comix etc right there with that particular issue.

 

So, since George already has all of the auction listings before the auction (on all auction houses that report), he would just have to ensure all data comes in for each book. That would clean up some of this c r a p.

[divad]

Mere speculation.

 

He sends them data? If that's how it works, than the data is specious at best.

 

It's a little more than speculation--I've bought and sold many books through Pedigree the last 4-5 years, and pretty much every one I've looked up in GPA to see if it made it in there. Why would the frequency at which he submits data make it more or less specious? GPA is lucky to be getting any data at all from dealers and auction houses, many won't send them anything--I doubt George cares when he gets data, as long as he does get it.

 

The two statements are independent. By deleting the quote and the bold, you have changed the meaning of what I said.

 

The speculation refers to the fact you were guessing how, when, and how often Doug sends data to GPA.

 

The specious comment refers to the character of the data, based upon the intent of the data sender.

[blazingbob]

What is irritating about expecting a person reporting GPA sales to be honest?

 

Isn't that what this thread's bottom line is all about?

 

If I may borrow from John.

 

Doug shoulda Man'd up and reported the sale whether the buyer likes it or not.

 

 

[fantastic_four]

This is easier James. When I have an auction, I submit a list of all books, serial numbers and links to each auction for the purposes of advertising. You know, when you look up a book in GPA and see the books on sale on ebay, pedigree, quality comix etc right there with that particular issue.

 

So, since George already has all of the auction listings before the auction (on all auction houses that report), he would just have to ensure all data comes in for each book. That would clean up some of this c r a p.

 

You can't report all the sales to him because they won't all go through. How does George know which ones legitimately didn't go through and which ones you're omitting for personal reasons?

 

Of course I mean "you" here in the general, "fill-in-auction-house-name-here" sense. I'm sure you wouldn't do any omitting.

[Flaming_Telepath]

This is nothing less than price fixing...market manipulation if you will...and the person I feel sorry for is George at GPA.

 

He has taken Mr Schmell's data on trust, when trust should not have been given. George's data pool is now poisoned by utter sh!te submitted by a prominent dealer. George doesn't deserve this, so let's not get on his case.

 

However, the lengths some people will go to to wring a few more dollars out of the consumer is ing sickening.