Everyone says Moderns aren't going to be worth anything, meanwhile.....

[UnrulyAppendage]

You kinda got that backwards,....an average Modern print is anywhere between 55,000-125,000 depending upon the book,....the average Silver book in it's prime was a minimum of 200,000 to upwards of 750,000.....

 

 

Once again I stands corrected......

But ..

Arent many, many modern titles that have hopes of selling well printed in at least a million?

 

Or was it just that back then, there was no video games, cell phones, DVd's, computers.

And all a kid has was comics?... so they printed a ton?

 

Moderns are not pinted in mass quantities like in the millions. I believe the biggest selling book last year besides the multi cover Batman 619 was the Avengers/JLA and it was a little over 200,000. If a title sells out, it goes back for reprints. As Batman and a few other HOT titles have shown, it is the 2nd print that is getting high bucks if there is an alternate cover.

 

Collect moderns because you like them. Collect them for speculation purposes if you must, but don't collect them for investment purposes. You are better off getting a book with an established track record. We can all give tales of the next big thing that doesn't pan out. Battlestar Galactica, Firestorm, etc, were big hits but burned quickly. The New Ten Titans in 1980 is a good example of a hot title back then. It shot up big time in the early 1980's but it came back to earth and it is about the same value at its peak back then as it is now. In other words, twenty bucks in 1981 was huge, but it is still worth twenty buck now, which is not so huge.

 

The only way you can strike it big with moderns is you start getting stuff that few people read but it starts getting recognition by a good writer or artist. That actually requires much time in research and money by buying issues to speculate on. For every number one you by multiples of and it pays off, you will have many more duds that you are stuck with and it will even out your investment. The only way moderns will really pick up if new readers come into collecting but that is not happening.

 

[Ze-man]

Thanks F..F. I didnt mean to get "off-topic" of the Modern comics thread.

 

But I had always wondered about S.S. #4,

I see in the CGC census it has more then its share of highly graded copies, and thought " man this is low distribution? , then they must have all been graded by CGC by now"

 

 

 

Zeman

[Illiterati-migration]

Sure the modern now will be worth something in 30 - 40 years.

 

Since rarity/scarcity has virtually NOTHING to do with the value of comic books, why not talk about what REALLY makes a book valuable (besides the label)?

 

-How many "important" artists are working in comics currently? Are we seeing the work of a future Neal Adams right now? Is there someone whose art alone will fuel a book's value?

 

-What about the characters? Are there Key Issues being produced or is it just a continual re-hashing of the same old characters in the same old scenarios?

 

To answer my own question 1: I would say no. Kaare Andrews is doing some brilliant work at times, but I don't know that I could realistically forecast that his "style" would ever appeal to a broader audience.

 

And question 2? Nah. I'm sure some will want to trot out the old "Venom" argument, which is fine... but who else? What can be done to affect the notion that nothing in comics is permanent? The readers have been jerked around too many times in too many ways to fall for any "shocking" revelations... everyone knows that whatever happens could (and probably will) be retconned next year anyway. How does a "Key Issue" arise when there is a stigma like that?

 

And could it be said that there is a major schism in the comic book community right now? Those who are "collecting" aren't reading new books and those who are "reading" new books aren't collecting old ones?

[RushComics]

Comic book advice through the "ages"...

 

1960s - Don't bother with current books...

what you really want are the best books from the 1930s.

 

1970s - Don't bother with current books...

what you really want are the best books from the 1940s.

 

1980s - Don't bother with current books...

what you really want are the best books from the 1950s.

 

1990s - Don't bother with current books...

what you really want are the best books from the 1960s.

 

2000s - Don't bother with current books...

what you really want are the best books from the 1970s.

 

Of course you should stop bothering with current books... it's the RULE.

 

You forgot some of the conventional wisdom of the past..

 

Late 1970s: Don't bother with the X-Men, nobody buys that. Howard the Duck#1 is the sure-fire investment book! Pick up as many copies as you can at $35 a pop, you'll resell them at $100 in a few years. Oh, and don't forget those Howard the Duck appearances in Man-Thing! Those are the REAL investments!

(P.S. The $35 "Near Mint" copy had many, many stress lines on the spine, but that's what "Near Mint" was back then. Hey, that's why the word "Near" is there, it's NOT Mint!)

 

Early 1980s: Howard the Duck #1 is a dead book. But forget about that! You want the first New Teen Titans in DC Comics Presents! And don't forget Thor #337! Get as many copies as you can.. while they're still at the low, low price of only $45 a copy! (Near Mint wasn't much better then either.)

 

By the 1990s: Black-bagged Superman #75, now THIS is a sure fire investment, at $75 a pop, you can't go wrong! Don't open that bag though!

 

Those crying eyes that bought those books--not to mention the ones that bought super-multiples of 1980s-1990s books--are not going to cry the tears the people who paid hundreds of dollars for copies of Spawn #1, and I don't care if it's a Mint 10.0, Spawn #1 has about a bazillion copies in existance. I think there are enough copies of Spawn #1 in NM or better for every human being on the planet to have about 10 copies or so. Okay, it's an exagerration, but you get the idea.

 

The only other comment I can make is, unslabbed, I can't seem to get a tenth of cover price.

[joe_collector]

[The only way moderns will really pick up if new readers come into collecting but that is not happening.

 

That is part of it, but I really think the important ingredient is that comics simply don't have the disposability factor anymore.

 

No kids taking up comic reading is a serious blow, but at current cover prices, who tosses their Modern books anymore?

[justiceleaguer]

And could it be said that there is a major schism in the comic book community right now? Those who are "collecting" aren't reading new books and those who are "reading" new books aren't collecting old ones?

 

 

That is by far the best and most sensible quote ive ever read on these boards.

[joe_collector]

And could it be said that there is a major schism in the comic book community right now? Those who are "collecting" aren't reading new books and those who are "reading" new books aren't collecting old ones?

 

 

That is by far the best and most sensible quote ive ever read on these boards.

 

This goes back to the old "What Will Be the Next Gold/Silver/Bronze Key", as it's been since the early 90's where new comics could really influence back issue sales and key issue identification.

 

Or another example, CGC still lists ASM 122 as the Death of the Green Goblin, when he's alive and kicking in Modern comics. This horrific retcon has had little effect on deleting ASM 122 as a Key issue, and most Bronze collectors probably think he's still dead.

 

How many times has a major villain "disappeared, and presumed dead", only to show up later? Why does OS, Wizard and CGC not list those, while maintaining the ASM 122 status?

 

Because Bronze Age collectors don't give a rat's butt what those hacks at Marvel do in Modern comics.

 

 

[Illiterati-migration]

And could it be said that there is a major schism in the comic book community right now? Those who are "collecting" aren't reading new books and those who are "reading" new books aren't collecting old ones?

 

 

That is by far the best and most sensible quote ive ever read on these boards.

 

This goes back to the old "What Will Be the Next Gold/Silver/Bronze Key", as it's been since the early 90's where new comics could really influence back issue sales and key issue identification.

 

Or another example, CGC still lists ASM 122 as the Death of the Green Goblin, when he's alive and kicking in Modern comics. This horrific retcon has had little effect on deleting ASM 122 as a Key issue, and most Bronze collectors probably think he's still dead.

 

How many times has a major villain "disappeared, and presumed dead", only to show up later? Why does OS, Wizard and CGC not list those, while maintaining the ASM 122 status?

 

Because Bronze Age collectors don't give a rat's butt what those hacks at Marvel do in Modern comics.

 

 

And this, perhaps, is why "new book readers" don't give a rat's butt about what happened during the Bronze Age... and thus why they don't buy back issues.

 

So, is there a way to fix this? Does it even need to be fixed?

[DiceX]

Why does OS, Wizard and CGC not list those, while maintaining the ASM 122 status?

 

I've noticed that any character that dies and comes back in a later issue/title gets it listed as "Death" . (with the quotation marks)

I guess that's how they label the fake deaths.

[Darthdiesel]

Or another example, CGC still lists ASM 122 as the Death of the Green Goblin, when he's alive and kicking in Modern comics

 

Peter Parker Vol 2 issues # 44-47

[UnrulyAppendage]

[The only way moderns will really pick up if new readers come into collecting but that is not happening.

 

That is part of it, but I really think the important ingredient is that comics simply don't have the disposability factor anymore.

 

No kids taking up comic reading is a serious blow, but at current cover prices, who tosses their Modern books anymore?

 

Yes. Print runs may be down, but the quality of moderns is way up due to better storage. I used to cringe when I would see kids or adults fold and wrinkle comics. It was the collector in me that like to keep things pristine. Now, I wish there were more kids that trashed their comics.

[joe_collector]

I've noticed that any character that dies and comes back in a later issue/title gets it listed as "Death" . (with the quotation marks)

I guess that's how they label the fake deaths.

 

Actually, that's how they handle retcons that happen after many, many years, and it's a relatively new phenomenon.

 

All the old Silver and Bronze "Deaths" that were not held for long, are never noted, and it's only a method of keeping its status intact for collectors, and playing CYA for Modern specs.

 

Example: Galactus died once or twice, but since 20 issues or so later, he was alive and kicking, those are never noted.

 

If Galactus kicked the bucket, it stayed that way for 20 years, the issue turned into a high-priced key, and only 30 years later did some brain-dead hack exhume him for profit... then "Death" would be used to cover off both ends of the coin.

 

If OS listed every "fake death" Marvel ever concocted, the Guide would be released in encyclopedia form.

[justiceleaguer]

And could it be said that there is a major schism in the comic book community right now? Those who are "collecting" aren't reading new books and those who are "reading" new books aren't collecting old ones?

 

 

That is by far the best and most sensible quote ive ever read on these boards.

 

This goes back to the old "What Will Be the Next Gold/Silver/Bronze Key", as it's been since the early 90's where new comics could really influence back issue sales and key issue identification.

 

Or another example, CGC still lists ASM 122 as the Death of the Green Goblin, when he's alive and kicking in Modern comics. This horrific retcon has had little effect on deleting ASM 122 as a Key issue, and most Bronze collectors probably think he's still dead.

 

How many times has a major villain "disappeared, and presumed dead", only to show up later? Why does OS, Wizard and CGC not list those, while maintaining the ASM 122 status?

 

Because Bronze Age collectors don't give a rat's butt what those hacks at Marvel do in Modern comics.

 

 

And this, perhaps, is why "new book readers" don't give a rat's butt about what happened during the Bronze Age... and thus why they don't buy back issues.

 

So, is there a way to fix this? Does it even need to be fixed?

 

 

Yes, there are simple ways to fix these problems. Either the value of every book before the 1970's drops in value dramatically so that kids can afford them ......or get the comic industry to start producing comics id pay to [!@#%^&^] read.

[underthebigw]

I'm not sure that there have EVER been enough comic collectors to support a million-copy printing...the only reason they did that for X-Men #1 and Spawn #1 in the early 90s is because they knew a lot of people would be buying multiple copies.

 

 

Without realizing it, you point out the very problem with the plight of comics, that the market is geared toward "comic collectors", not readers. As long as it's collectors primarily buying books, no comic will ever again have a 1 mill circulation. Now, when kids (and adults) READ comics, 1 mill was a good seller. If memory serves, it was not uncommon for the major Dell Disney books to sell over a million into the late 50's. Forget Capt. Marvel in the 40's.

[FlyingDonut]

And could it be said that there is a major schism in the comic book community right now? Those who are "collecting" aren't reading new books and those who are "reading" new books aren't collecting old ones?

 

 

That is by far the best and most sensible quote ive ever read on these boards.

 

This goes back to the old "What Will Be the Next Gold/Silver/Bronze Key", as it's been since the early 90's where new comics could really influence back issue sales and key issue identification.

 

Or another example, CGC still lists ASM 122 as the Death of the Green Goblin, when he's alive and kicking in Modern comics. This horrific retcon has had little effect on deleting ASM 122 as a Key issue, and most Bronze collectors probably think he's still dead.

 

How many times has a major villain "disappeared, and presumed dead", only to show up later? Why does OS, Wizard and CGC not list those, while maintaining the ASM 122 status?

 

Because Bronze Age collectors don't give a rat's butt what those hacks at Marvel do in Modern comics.

 

 

Excellent point. Sold in 15 minutes from being listed.

[FFB]

I used to feel this way from about 1991 to 2000 or so, but I have to admit that I really enjoy a lot of new stuff. Ultimate Spider-Man is a great read every month, just like pretty much everything else that Brian Michael Bendis writes. The entire Ultimates line is pretty readable, in fact. I also like Daredevil, although I could have done without the recent David Mack storyline. Amazing Spider-Man is just "ok," but it is miles and miles ahead of where it was just a couple of years ago. Fantastic Four has been great IMO since Mark Waid started writing it.

 

The quality of stories in Marvel's books these days is a lot better than where it was in the mid- to late-1990s. Although I don't read any DCs (I guess that makes me the Bizarro-Joanna), the guy at my comic store tells me that there is a lot of good stuff coming out of DC now, too.

 

I know that new comics are pretty expensive, but try to pick up a couple of TPBs of recent storylines and see what you think. My recent re-introduction to collecting new comics came from picking up Volume 1 of the Ultimate Spider-Man TPB (Spidey was always my favorite). Check it out (or pick up any recent issue of whatever books you used to read) and see if your opinion of new books changes.

 

And this, perhaps, is why "new book readers" don't give a rat's butt about what happened during the Bronze Age... and thus why they don't buy back issues.

 

So, is there a way to fix this? Does it even need to be fixed?

 

 

Yes, there are simple ways to fix these problems. Either the value of every book before the 1970's drops in value dramatically so that kids can afford them ......or get the comic industry to start producing comics id pay to [!@#%^&^] read.

[Aman619]

I'm not sure that there have EVER been enough comic collectors to support a million-copy printing...the only reason they did that for X-Men #1 and Spawn #1 in the early 90s is because they knew a lot of people would be buying multiple copies.

 

 

Without realizing it, you point out the very problem with the plight of comics, that the market is geared toward "comic collectors", not readers. As long as it's collectors primarily buying books, no comic will ever again have a 1 mill circulation. Now, when kids (and adults) READ comics, 1 mill was a good seller. If memory serves, it was not uncommon for the major Dell Disney books to sell over a million into the late 50's. Forget Capt. Marvel in the 40's.

 

by collectors Im assuming you dont mean 'speculators'.

No comic will ever sell a million copies again until it is perceived as a safe "investment" to buy cases of that issue by collector/speculators. Cause you need thousands of cases to be sold to people AND retailers (like in the 90s) to reach those sales figures.

[lou_fine]

I'm not sure that there have EVER been enough comic collectors to support a million-copy printing...the only reason they did that for X-Men #1 and Spawn #1 in the early 90s is because they knew a lot of people would be buying multiple copies.

 

 

Without realizing it, you point out the very problem with the plight of comics, that the market is geared toward "comic collectors", not readers. As long as it's collectors primarily buying books, no comic will ever again have a 1 mill circulation. Now, when kids (and adults) READ comics, 1 mill was a good seller. If memory serves, it was not uncommon for the major Dell Disney books to sell over a million into the late 50's. Forget Capt. Marvel in the 40's.

 

An important point to note here is the very significant drop-off in the number of actual readers. Back in the 40's, an one million circulation actually meant several million readers as the books were pass from one reader to the next. In today's market, a 200,000 circulation may only represent 50,000 readers or less due to multiple purchases or even collectors buying single copies of book with no intention of reading them.

 

[Aman619]

agreed that the circulation both in passed around readership and printed copies was far greater in the 40s. But ALL circulation numbere pre-Direct market were much higher than today's "print to match pre-orders" quantities. Back then they printed many times th ereadership to fill newsstands, and took returns of high percentages of the print run.

[RushComics]

 

 

Yes, there are simple ways to fix these problems. Either the value of every book before the 1970's drops in value dramatically so that kids can afford them ......

 

A lot of them *are* cheap enough for kids to afford them. They are called:

1. Low grade copies.

2. Reprint books

3. Ebay auctions other people are ignoring.

 

Often, the Silver-early Bronze (sometimes even Gold) goes for cheaper than the cover price of today's comics.

 

Charlie