Batman # 1 Blue label 9.0 to be auctioned on ComicLink again.

[fantastic_four]

If we are talking popularity and not dollar value, then a lot of it has to do with simply personal taste, and the first tier of books does not need to be wittle down to 5 books.

 

There are likely 10 or 15 books that I can come up as 1st tier titles because they make up the primary core of many collections. FF is a core title. X-men is a core title. Batman is a core title. ASM is a core title. Superman is a core title. It doesn't get more "core" than these titles, so it just doesn't make sense to me to relegate some of these titles to a second tier.

 

I don't disagree...yet I think you see his point about Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man holding a distinction above the others in terms of appeal, about how the market for those books will be there long after the others have started to taper off. So you call them all "first tier" with some unlabelled distinction of popularity amongst them, whereas he labels the mega-first-tier books with a separate label...eh, whatever...to-may-to, to-mah-to. Shouldn't get hung up on top books being called "second tier" when you agree in theory. Call it "First Tier" and "Second Tier," or call it "Mega First Tier" and "First Tier"...it's not that important which label gets used.

[VintageComics]

If we are talking popularity and not dollar value, then a lot of it has to do with simply personal taste, and the first tier of books does not need to be wittle down to 5 books.

 

There are likely 10 or 15 books that I can come up as 1st tier titles because they make up the primary core of many collections. FF is a core title. X-men is a core title. Batman is a core title. ASM is a core title. Superman is a core title. It doesn't get more "core" than these titles, so it just doesn't make sense to me to relegate some of these titles to a second tier.

 

I don't disagree...yet I think you see his point about Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man holding a distinction above the others in terms of appeal, about how the market for those books will be there long after the others have started to taper off. So you call them all "first tier" with some unlabelled distinction of popularity amongst them, whereas he labels the mega-first-tier books with a separate label...eh, whatever...to-may-to, to-mah-to. Shouldn't get hung up on top books being called "second tier" when you agree in theory. Call it "First Tier" and "Second Tier," or call it "Mega First Tier" and "First Tier"...it's not that important.

 

After I typed out what I did and submitted it I realized and saw it exactly that way.

 

ASM is more popular than, say, the original X-men, but I just can't get myself to call the other books "B" tier titles. That's just a disservice to how big the FF and the X-men are. I mean, we're talking multiple title crossovers, movie franchises, etc, etc.

 

As far as over all ranking, Ryan has it right. As far as labeling them, well that's where I thought he was a bit off.

 

Again, Ryan and I were just discussing a principle. It's not a personal thing (except that maybe I'm not an ASM collector and that I can sympathize with all the FF and X-men collectors out there).

 

 

 

[kimik]

If we are talking popularity and not dollar value, then a lot of it has to do with simply personal taste, and the first tier of books does not need to be wittle down to 5 books.

 

There are likely 10 or 15 books that I can come up as 1st tier titles because they make up the primary core of many collections. FF is a core title. X-men is a core title. Batman is a core title. ASM is a core title. Superman is a core title. It doesn't get more "core" than these titles, so it just doesn't make sense to me to relegate some of these titles to a second tier.

 

I guess the way I look at it is like this: If I can't see a collection existing without what I consider a "core" title, and if a majority agrees, then to me that is an A tier title.

 

I don't think FF and X-men (or Marvel #1) have gone the way of Whiz and All Star quite yet.

 

I respect your opinion. (thumbs u

 

As I stated, my ranking is based on widespread impact, not just value. The five properties I listed are the ones with the most mass market appeal. I included TMNT as the only CA book with that type of appeal, but it is on the wane a bit right now. FF and X-Men are solid properties in the comic world, but if you ask John Q public worldwide about comic characters they would likely name Spidey, Batman, Supes, and Wolverine (in no particular order). The FF has been dropping in significance for a while now, and that is why I do not consider it a 1st tier book. It is definitely still an important book, but just not as important as the others.

 

[kimik]

If we are talking popularity and not dollar value, then a lot of it has to do with simply personal taste, and the first tier of books does not need to be wittle down to 5 books.

 

There are likely 10 or 15 books that I can come up as 1st tier titles because they make up the primary core of many collections. FF is a core title. X-men is a core title. Batman is a core title. ASM is a core title. Superman is a core title. It doesn't get more "core" than these titles, so it just doesn't make sense to me to relegate some of these titles to a second tier.

 

I don't disagree...yet I think you see his point about Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man holding a distinction above the others in terms of appeal, about how the market for those books will be there long after the others have started to taper off. So you call them all "first tier" with some unlabelled distinction of popularity amongst them, whereas he labels the mega-first-tier books with a separate label...eh, whatever...to-may-to, to-mah-to. Shouldn't get hung up on top books being called "second tier" when you agree in theory. Call it "First Tier" and "Second Tier," or call it "Mega First Tier" and "First Tier"...it's not that important.

 

After I typed out what I did and submitted it I realized and saw it exactly that way.

 

ASM is more popular than, say, the original X-men, but I just can't get myself to call the other books "B" tier titles. That's just a disservice to how big the FF and the X-men are. I mean, we're talking multiple title crossovers, movie franchises, etc, etc.

 

As far as over all ranking, Ryan has it right. As far as labeling them, well that's where I thought he was a bit off.

 

Again, Ryan and I were just discussing a principle. It's not a personal thing (except that maybe I'm not an ASM collector and that I can sympathize with all the FF and X-men collectors out there).

 

 

 

Looks like you posted while I was typing.

 

FWIW, I am not a big ASM fan either.

[fantastic_four]

ASM is more popular than, say, the original X-men, but I just can't get myself to call the other books "B" tier titles. That's just a disservice to how big the FF and the X-men are. I mean, we're talking multiple title crossovers, movie franchises, etc, etc.

 

As far as over all ranking, Ryan has it right. As far as labeling them, well that's where I thought he was a bit off.

 

He's not off, though...it's just difficult to admit it. FF IS a B title...or call it A-Minus if you prefer! It was the first big Marvel, but without the iconic villains (Dr. Doom, Galactus, and Silver Surfer) and without Byrne, the title may have even been cancelled, as the Four themselves are only moderately interesting. If Wolverine was in X-Men #1, it'd be in the top league.

 

Sub-Mariner, Flash, Green Lantern, FF, and X-Men don't pass the gramma test...if you ask most grandmothers if they've heard of Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man, the vast majority will say yes, whereas I can't imagine that half will say they've heard of Fantastic Four or X-Men because they're not cultural icons. Grammas in the next decade or two will likely begin to say yes to having heard of Wolverine.

[VintageComics]

I might be able to live with an A-

 

[tth2]

My rationale on the AF #15 in 20 years is a generational thing since there should be more collectors at that point interested in the top SA book to own, AF #15, than a 2nd tier GA key.

 

Ryan, I think you need to pull back on the stick a little bit. Calling a Marvel #1 a second tier book is a little far fetched at this point.

 

 

Roy, in my opinion there are only 4, maybe 5 top tier books in the entire hobby. They include 2 GA - Action #1 and Tec #27, 1 SA - AF #15, 1 BA - Hulk #181, and you can add 1 Copper Age - TMNT #1. MC #1 falls into the 2nd tier along with FF#1, X-Men #1, SC #4 and #22, etc.

 

 

FF #1, X-men #1 second tier?

 

 

Nevermind. Conversation over.

 

 

 

 

 

To each their own, Roy, but if you only want to buy and hold 5 books for the long haul then that is the list. FF #1 is no longer the key SA Marvel to own, and X-Men #1 is a relatively common key.

 

Ryan, how can a $100K or $200K book be second tier? I don't understand your logic.

 

They may be ranked in a certain order, but I don't think that would be enough to qualify them as a second tier book.

 

To add to this, FF#1 CGC 9.6 is worth much more than just a few hundred thousand, not bad for a 2nd tier 60's book. What other SA book outside of AF#15 could even come close to challenging its value?

Hulk #1 in 9.4, so long as there remained only one.

[Silver Surfer]

The Church MC#1 in 9.6 or 9.8 condition is worth millions.

 

You need to take an "s" off of that "millions"...it's debatable that book would reach a million, but two is ludicrous.

 

If the price difference between an Action #1 in CGC 6.0 to CGC 8.0 condition (not even the best, or second best copy) or even the Tec #27 sale are an indication of why the MC#1 is easily a $1M+++ book then what are you basing your theory on? Its not only a Church copy but its in outrageous condition, far and away the best known copy and it really belongs in a museum. This book would sell in 3 seconds if listed at $1M.

[Silver Surfer]

My rationale on the AF #15 in 20 years is a generational thing since there should be more collectors at that point interested in the top SA book to own, AF #15, than a 2nd tier GA key.

 

Ryan, I think you need to pull back on the stick a little bit. Calling a Marvel #1 a second tier book is a little far fetched at this point.

 

 

Roy, in my opinion there are only 4, maybe 5 top tier books in the entire hobby. They include 2 GA - Action #1 and Tec #27, 1 SA - AF #15, 1 BA - Hulk #181, and you can add 1 Copper Age - TMNT #1. MC #1 falls into the 2nd tier along with FF#1, X-Men #1, SC #4 and #22, etc.

 

 

FF #1, X-men #1 second tier?

 

 

Nevermind. Conversation over.

 

 

 

 

 

To each their own, Roy, but if you only want to buy and hold 5 books for the long haul then that is the list. FF #1 is no longer the key SA Marvel to own, and X-Men #1 is a relatively common key.

 

Ryan, how can a $100K or $200K book be second tier? I don't understand your logic.

 

They may be ranked in a certain order, but I don't think that would be enough to qualify them as a second tier book.

 

To add to this, FF#1 CGC 9.6 is worth much more than just a few hundred thousand, not bad for a 2nd tier 60's book. What other SA book outside of AF#15 could even come close to challenging its value?

Hulk #1 in 9.4, so long as there remained only one.

 

Maybe but I still think it would fall well short of the top FF copy.

[Silver Surfer]

ASM is more popular than, say, the original X-men, but I just can't get myself to call the other books "B" tier titles. That's just a disservice to how big the FF and the X-men are. I mean, we're talking multiple title crossovers, movie franchises, etc, etc.

 

As far as over all ranking, Ryan has it right. As far as labeling them, well that's where I thought he was a bit off.

 

He's not off, though...it's just difficult to admit it. FF IS a B title...or call it A-Minus if you prefer! It was the first big Marvel, but without the iconic villains (Dr. Doom, Galactus, and Silver Surfer) and without Byrne, the title may have even been cancelled, as the Four themselves are only moderately interesting. If Wolverine was in X-Men #1, it'd be in the top league.

 

Sub-Mariner, Flash, Green Lantern, FF, and X-Men don't pass the gramma test...if you ask most grandmothers if they've heard of Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man, the vast majority will say yes, whereas I can't imagine that half will say they've heard of Fantastic Four or X-Men because they're not cultural icons. Grammas in the next decade or two will likely begin to say yes to having heard of Wolverine.

 

So if a hot artist takes on the FF are they a tier 1 book again??? C'mon the quality of a long running series ebbs and flows over the years depending on who is writing/drawing it but how can you begin to discount their value. "Without the iconic villians", this is a most puzzling statement. They are part and parcel of the Fantastic Four legacy and its what makes them great. Using that logic I guess Superman doesn't have much going for him other than the fact that he appeared in Action #1? Does he even have "iconic" villians? Mr. Myzlpylx! How many times can they write about him having a race with the Flash before it gets tiresome. I hear Superman saving a cat out of a tree covers is hot again.

[Rip]

Batman-14 MC 1- 5. That is a pretty good gap that I did not expect in among the "enlightened" collectors. Out in the real world of comics I suspect Batman would win overwhelmingly.

 

Amongst top books there are two more not to forget. The Mile High Flash 1 is the fourth largest sale ever and I suspect Captain America 1 would be a monster book if the highest graded came to market.

 

Yea that Flash 1 Church copy just sold for 450K this month. The Cap 1 Allentown 9.6 I suspect would go for close to the same, maybe a hair more.

[thedude]

ASM is more popular than, say, the original X-men, but I just can't get myself to call the other books "B" tier titles. That's just a disservice to how big the FF and the X-men are. I mean, we're talking multiple title crossovers, movie franchises, etc, etc.

 

As far as over all ranking, Ryan has it right. As far as labeling them, well that's where I thought he was a bit off.

 

He's not off, though...it's just difficult to admit it. FF IS a B title...or call it A-Minus if you prefer! It was the first big Marvel, but without the iconic villains (Dr. Doom, Galactus, and Silver Surfer) and without Byrne, the title may have even been cancelled, as the Four themselves are only moderately interesting. If Wolverine was in X-Men #1, it'd be in the top league.

 

Sub-Mariner, Flash, Green Lantern, FF, and X-Men don't pass the gramma test...if you ask most grandmothers if they've heard of Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man, the vast majority will say yes, whereas I can't imagine that half will say they've heard of Fantastic Four or X-Men because they're not cultural icons. Grammas in the next decade or two will likely begin to say yes to having heard of Wolverine.

 

So if a hot artist takes on the FF are they a tier 1 book again??? C'mon the quality of a long running series ebbs and flows over the years depending on who is writing/drawing it but how can you begin to discount their value. "Without the iconic villians", this is a most puzzling statement. They are part and parcel of the Fantastic Four legacy and its what makes them great. Using that logic I guess Superman doesn't have much going for him other than the fact that he appeared in Action #1? Does he even have "iconic" villians? Mr. Myzlpylx! How many times can they write about him having a race with the Flash before it gets tiresome. I hear Superman saving a cat out of a tree covers is hot again.

 

all I can add is that the proof is in the pudding. Action #1 and Tec #27 have both sold for a million each, and they aren't even the best copies that we know of. just the best ones available recently. and I'm quite sure that the 8.5 Action #1 will sell for over a mil. as well.

 

come on man, even a guy who's board name is Fantastic Four is saying that the Fantastic Four is a B title.

 

 

[kimik]

So if a hot artist takes on the FF are they a tier 1 book again??? C'mon the quality of a long running series ebbs and flows over the years depending on who is writing/drawing it but how can you begin to discount their value. "Without the iconic villians", this is a most puzzling statement. They are part and parcel of the Fantastic Four legacy and its what makes them great. Using that logic I guess Superman doesn't have much going for him other than the fact that he appeared in Action #1? Does he even have "iconic" villians? Mr. Myzlpylx! How many times can they write about him having a race with the Flash before it gets tiresome. I hear Superman saving a cat out of a tree covers is hot again.

 

Actually, Supes' iconic human villain is the likely archetype of the FF's iconic foe Dr. Doom or the Green Goblin for Spidey (just like Stan used the JLA for the basis of FF). I bet that the general public is more aware of him as well than either of those two Marvel villains.

[Flash105]

If we are talking popularity and not dollar value, then a lot of it has to do with simply personal taste, and the first tier of books does not need to be wittle down to 5 books.

 

There are likely 10 or 15 books that I can come up as 1st tier titles because they make up the primary core of many collections. FF is a core title. X-men is a core title. Batman is a core title. ASM is a core title. Superman is a core title. It doesn't get more "core" than these titles, so it just doesn't make sense to me to relegate some of these titles to a second tier.

 

I guess the way I look at it is like this: If I can't see a collection existing without what I consider a "core" title, and if a majority agrees, then to me that is an A tier title.

 

I don't think FF and X-men (or Marvel #1) have gone the way of Whiz and All Star quite yet.

 

I respect your opinion. (thumbs u

 

As I stated, my ranking is based on widespread impact, not just value. The five properties I listed are the ones with the most mass market appeal. I included TMNT as the only CA book with that type of appeal, but it is on the wane a bit right now. FF and X-Men are solid properties in the comic world, but if you ask John Q public worldwide about comic characters they would likely name Spidey, Batman, Supes, and Wolverine (in no particular order). The FF has been dropping in significance for a while now, and that is why I do not consider it a 1st tier book. It is definitely still an important book, but just not as important as the others.

 

I think relating TMNT in Copper to Marvel Comics #1 in gold is actually on the mark. TMNT is the most valuable copper book. It is a killer book that most would love to have but it is not a book that most would buy. It has a narrow fan base that limits its topside growth.

[Silver Surfer]

So if a hot artist takes on the FF are they a tier 1 book again??? C'mon the quality of a long running series ebbs and flows over the years depending on who is writing/drawing it but how can you begin to discount their value. "Without the iconic villians", this is a most puzzling statement. They are part and parcel of the Fantastic Four legacy and its what makes them great. Using that logic I guess Superman doesn't have much going for him other than the fact that he appeared in Action #1? Does he even have "iconic" villians? Mr. Myzlpylx! How many times can they write about him having a race with the Flash before it gets tiresome. I hear Superman saving a cat out of a tree covers is hot again.

 

Actually, Supes' iconic human villain is the likely archetype of the FF's iconic foe Dr. Doom or the Green Goblin for Spidey (just like Stan used the JLA for the basis of FF). I bet that the general public is more aware of him as well than either of those two Marvel villains.

 

Yeah Stan took common themes/characters and actually made them interesting while DC drew some of the lamest covers/stories of all-time. Lexx Luggy? Really who gives a rats arse about that character, he is about as interesting as.....Bizzaro. The only reason the character is burned in my memory is that they continue to replay those horrible Superman movies from the 80's on Saturday afternoons.

[Dark Knight]

ASM is more popular than, say, the original X-men, but I just can't get myself to call the other books "B" tier titles. That's just a disservice to how big the FF and the X-men are. I mean, we're talking multiple title crossovers, movie franchises, etc, etc.

 

As far as over all ranking, Ryan has it right. As far as labeling them, well that's where I thought he was a bit off.

 

He's not off, though...it's just difficult to admit it. FF IS a B title...or call it A-Minus if you prefer! It was the first big Marvel, but without the iconic villains (Dr. Doom, Galactus, and Silver Surfer) and without Byrne, the title may have even been cancelled, as the Four themselves are only moderately interesting. If Wolverine was in X-Men #1, it'd be in the top league.

 

Sub-Mariner, Flash, Green Lantern, FF, and X-Men don't pass the gramma test...if you ask most grandmothers if they've heard of Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man, the vast majority will say yes, whereas I can't imagine that half will say they've heard of Fantastic Four or X-Men because they're not cultural icons. Grammas in the next decade or two will likely begin to say yes to having heard of Wolverine.

 

So if a hot artist takes on the FF are they a tier 1 book again??? C'mon the quality of a long running series ebbs and flows over the years depending on who is writing/drawing it but how can you begin to discount their value. "Without the iconic villians", this is a most puzzling statement. They are part and parcel of the Fantastic Four legacy and its what makes them great. Using that logic I guess Superman doesn't have much going for him other than the fact that he appeared in Action #1? Does he even have "iconic" villians? Mr. Myzlpylx! How many times can they write about him having a race with the Flash before it gets tiresome. I hear Superman saving a cat out of a tree covers is hot again.

 

all I can add is that the proof is in the pudding. Action #1 and Tec #27 have both sold for a million each, and they aren't even the best copies that we know of. just the best ones available recently. and I'm quite sure that the 8.5 Action #1 will sell for over a mil. as well.

 

come on man, even a guy who's board name is Fantastic Four is saying that the Fantastic Four is a B title.

 

 

But the question is, if the 8.5 Action 1 went up for auction first, would the 8.0 Action 1 and Tec 27 8.0 sell for a million?

[nearmint]

ASM is more popular than, say, the original X-men, but I just can't get myself to call the other books "B" tier titles. That's just a disservice to how big the FF and the X-men are. I mean, we're talking multiple title crossovers, movie franchises, etc, etc.

 

As far as over all ranking, Ryan has it right. As far as labeling them, well that's where I thought he was a bit off.

 

He's not off, though...it's just difficult to admit it. FF IS a B title...or call it A-Minus if you prefer! It was the first big Marvel, but without the iconic villains (Dr. Doom, Galactus, and Silver Surfer) and without Byrne, the title may have even been cancelled, as the Four themselves are only moderately interesting. If Wolverine was in X-Men #1, it'd be in the top league.

 

Sub-Mariner, Flash, Green Lantern, FF, and X-Men don't pass the gramma test...if you ask most grandmothers if they've heard of Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man, the vast majority will say yes, whereas I can't imagine that half will say they've heard of Fantastic Four or X-Men because they're not cultural icons. Grammas in the next decade or two will likely begin to say yes to having heard of Wolverine.

 

So if a hot artist takes on the FF are they a tier 1 book again??? C'mon the quality of a long running series ebbs and flows over the years depending on who is writing/drawing it but how can you begin to discount their value. "Without the iconic villians", this is a most puzzling statement. They are part and parcel of the Fantastic Four legacy and its what makes them great. Using that logic I guess Superman doesn't have much going for him other than the fact that he appeared in Action #1? Does he even have "iconic" villians? Mr. Myzlpylx! How many times can they write about him having a race with the Flash before it gets tiresome. I hear Superman saving a cat out of a tree covers is hot again.

 

all I can add is that the proof is in the pudding. Action #1 and Tec #27 have both sold for a million each, and they aren't even the best copies that we know of. just the best ones available recently. and I'm quite sure that the 8.5 Action #1 will sell for over a mil. as well.

 

come on man, even a guy who's board name is Fantastic Four is saying that the Fantastic Four is a B title.

 

 

But the question is, if the 8.5 Action 1 went up for auction first, would the 8.0 Action 1 and Tec 27 8.0 sell for a million?

 

Kind of a moot point, isn't it?

[fantastic_four]

They are part and parcel of the Fantastic Four legacy and its what makes them great. Using that logic I guess Superman doesn't have much going for him other than the fact that he appeared in Action #1? Does he even have "iconic" villians? Mr. Myzlpylx! How many times can they write about him having a race with the Flash before it gets tiresome. I hear Superman saving a cat out of a tree covers is hot again.

 

Yea but the FF can't fight Dr. Doom and Galactus EVERY month...the iconic heroes are the ones that are the most appealing themselves. You've hit the main problem with Superman, he doesn't have compelling villains because they made him too powerful. Stan learned from that and made all of his heroes both physically vulnerable, and less obviously interesting to most writers at that time, emotionally vulnerable. Superman himself is compelling though...who wouldn't want to be invulnerable and fly?

[fantastic_four]

If the price difference between an Action #1 in CGC 6.0 to CGC 8.0 condition (not even the best, or second best copy) or even the Tec #27 sale are an indication of why the MC#1 is easily a $1M+++ book then what are you basing your theory on?

 

I'm basing it on:

• It featuring the first appearances of characters who haven't been popular in over 50 years
• Mediocre 9.0 prices for most of the last decade
• The fact that 9.6/9.8 Golden Age doesn't sell for the same kinds of multiples that Silver Age does. When there are so few copies that the top grades jump from 9.0 all the way up to 9.6/9.8, I haven't seen the same kinds of multiples we see on Silver where there are lots more collectors and lots more copies that people feel compelled to upgrade from or to buy to separate themselves from the rest of the pack. For a 9.6 to fetch multiples of 9.2 and 9.4 prices, there actually has to be a 9.2 and 9.4 in existence, otherwise, you're just buying the top copy, period, and the extra point increments are just gravy you keep adding money on for...but do people really say "well the 9.0 went for $X, so a 9.2 would go for $X times 2, a 9.4 for $X times 4, a 9.6 for $X * 6, and a 9.8 for $X * 10, so that's what I'm willing to pay." I haven't seen it.

[Silver Surfer]

FF brought us the Super Skrull, Klaw, Annihilus, Blastar, The Inhumans, the return of the Sub-Mariner, Terrax, the Silver Surfer, other Heralds, the Salem Seven, the Sphinx, the Watcher, good grief I don't think there is another series that can match the same depth of original characters.