The Humanization of Church Books

[Guardian Comics]

I think it depends on the title. Action Mile Highs would sell for a premium over a regular Action in the same grade. Maybe even double it. Same with Timelys if they ever come on the market.

 

So people are irrational?

 

 

It's not people being irrational, it's simply supply and demand and hot titles will carry a greater premium than those with less demand.

 

Adventure comics are cool as heck but there aren't nearly as many people wanting a copy of a classic cover Adventure #42 as there are that would want a Church copy of an early Action or Marvel Mystery book.

 

Many of those books that recently sold will sell for only a fraction of guide in lower grades so they are already over priced in the current guide. That's sad to me as they are terrific books but that is the reality.

 

It's simply a matter of certain titles moving from formerly A tier to a B tier.

 

I'm just quoting this so I can recant it next time you try and argue that Marvel 1 hasn't become B tier.

 

May I suggest something in the way of a tattoo to remind you?

 

 

This tattoo reminds me of you...

 

 

I feel inadequate without a Marvel #1.

 

 

You should

 

JJ

[1koko]

When the Overstreet conference discussed the adoption of the ten point system, a number of traditionalists wondered if it would eventually mean that a Church copy would simply be "another high grade copy". In other words, would it loose that "times Guide" pricing?

 

I looked at some of the results of the Heritage Auction and see that a number of Church books were fortunate to sell at Guide. (Centaur excluded). I understand that some books are more desirable than others. But that "premium" would be built in any way.

 

Have we seen the prophecy come true, that a Church book is just another high grade book?

 

jb

 

I think its just a short term issue.

 

The sale of Gary Keller's collection in such a short period (last 6 months) has menat that there have been so many Church copies available that you could pick and choose.

 

There were for example 43 Church adventures available in this sale alone.

 

Once this collection has been absorbed by the market we will see an increase again in the differential between Church and other similarly graded copies.

 

However, the fact that Gary Keller was trying to put together runs put pressure upwards on the differential as the books were a must have for him.

 

3-4x equivalent graded book is unlikely to happen until a similar run builder hits the market.

 

 

 

 

 

[1koko]

 

I feel inadequate without a pedigree Marvel #1.

 

 

Fixed it for you

[buttock]

if you were a car collector, would you pay a bit more for a certain lincoln town car convertible, vintage '63, that a president was shot in than you would for another of "the same quality?"

 

I would, I would!!!

 

The car would go nicely with this:

 

 

Is that yours?!?!? Incredible!

[G.A.tor]

if you were a car collector, would you pay a bit more for a certain lincoln town car convertible, vintage '63, that a president was shot in than you would for another of "the same quality?"

 

I would, I would!!!

 

The car would go nicely with this:

 

 

Is that yours?!?!? Incredible!

I believe that is mark's...pretty cool, huh!

[Mio]

 

if you were a car collector, would you pay a bit more for a certain lincoln town car convertible, vintage '63, that a president was shot in than you would for another of "the same quality?"

 

obviously the analogy is off-kilter toward the historical car--but to many of us, the fact of the book coming from church's collecition gives it an extra "oomph" that another, similar book does not have.

 

Indeed the analogy is a bit off... I don't get the premium for pedigrees either. What difference does it make which creepy hoarder kept the book in his basement for 30-40 years? The car the president was shot in is a little more significant than any specific pack rat.

 

Even regarding Gaines copies I don't get the premium they command sometimes vs books in the same grade from other sources for those file copies that are lower than 8.5 or so. Sure it's cool to own something from the company's owner... but I'd rather put that premium into more books. :shrug:

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

 

if you were a car collector, would you pay a bit more for a certain lincoln town car convertible, vintage '63, that a president was shot in than you would for another of "the same quality?"

 

obviously the analogy is off-kilter toward the historical car--but to many of us, the fact of the book coming from church's collecition gives it an extra "oomph" that another, similar book does not have.

 

Indeed the analogy is a bit off... I don't get the premium for pedigrees either. What difference does it make which creepy hoarder kept the book in his basement for 30-40 years? The car the president was shot in is a little more significant than any specific pack rat.

 

Even regarding Gaines copies I don't get the premium they command sometimes vs books in the same grade from other sources for those file copies that are lower than 8.5 or so. Sure it's cool to own something from the company's owner... but I'd rather put that premium into more books. :shrug:

 

I think its clear that the market has spoken: just being a Mile High copy doesn't guarantee that there are people out there willing to pay multiples just to have the book.

 

But, I think that's more of a reflection on the books in question, then on the pedigree itself.

 

Afterall, if you have two comparably graded copies of the same book, one being a MH and the other a non-pedigree, which one would you choose if the price was the same?

 

Exactly.

[SuperBird]

why did Keller dump these all at the same time, anyway?

[Straw-Man]

if you were a car collector, would you pay a bit more for a certain lincoln town car convertible, vintage '63, that a president was shot in than you would for another of "the same quality?"

 

I would, I would!!!

 

The car would go nicely with this:

 

 

now that is something.

[markseifert]

Indeed the analogy is a bit off... I don't get the premium for pedigrees either. What difference does it make which creepy hoarder kept the book in his basement for 30-40 years?

 

C'mon now. You really can't go there. If you start chipping away at that particular foundation the entire vintage-comics hobby reduces to something foolish and pointless -- which of course we all know it is not.

 

Why do any of us want these books in an era where reprints are available and many people like books sealed in slabs anyway? Any of those so-called "creepy hoarders" in theory had more practical and direct reasons for doing what they did.

 

To me, pedigree appreciation is about an appreciation of the hobby itself (as an additional aspect of the appreciation of the medium): Thinking about what it was like to buy comics then, talk about them with your friends, and wonder what was going to happen next -- decades before direct market shops, the internet, and many other things we have now.

 

I couldn't care less about the high grade aspect of it. It's a connection to the hobby's history.

[Straw-Man]

 

if you were a car collector, would you pay a bit more for a certain lincoln town car convertible, vintage '63, that a president was shot in than you would for another of "the same quality?"

 

obviously the analogy is off-kilter toward the historical car--but to many of us, the fact of the book coming from church's collecition gives it an extra "oomph" that another, similar book does not have.

 

Indeed the analogy is a bit off... I don't get the premium for pedigrees either. What difference does it make which creepy hoarder kept the book in his basement for 30-40 years? The car the president was shot in is a little more significant than any specific pack rat.

 

Even regarding Gaines copies I don't get the premium they command sometimes vs books in the same grade from other sources for those file copies that are lower than 8.5 or so. Sure it's cool to own something from the company's owner... but I'd rather put that premium into more books. :shrug:

 

if for no reason other than the loads and loads of fun i had assembling the run below, i am all for the ped designations. and i wasn't always that way. i sure am now, tho'.

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3711980&fpart=1

[stagedoorjohnny]

why did Keller dump these all at the same time, anyway?

 

 

 

That's the million dollar question... Literally.

[stagedoorjohnny]

 

 

 

 

WOW! That is an awesome piece of history.

[Mio]

 

I couldn't care less about the high grade aspect of it. It's a connection to the hobby's history.

 

I'm still not following why anyone would celebrate one hoard of comics over some other loose survivors (tiny collections of higher grade books, for example) that aren't classified as a pedigree. To me, 10 books surviving 50 years in the back of grandpa's closet despite all odds is just as interesting a story as someone packing a basement full.

 

But that's the fun of collecting - differing preferences among people with similar interests.

[markseifert]

I'm still not following why anyone would celebrate one hoard of comics over some other loose survivors (tiny collections of higher grade books, for example) that aren't classified as a pedigree. To me, 10 books surviving 50 years in the back of grandpa's closet despite all odds is just as interesting a story as someone packing a basement full.

 

I don't care whether or not cgc officially recognizes something as a pedigree. I care that I know a little something extra about the book's history, and in some cases know something about the original owner. It just so happens that a pedigree's history is often well-documented (or at least... better documented than grandpa's stash).

 

Example: I recently realized I have a book from an original owner collection that a fellow forum member unearthed 25 years ago. I was able to learn something about the collection. Few people if anybody else know about it, but I still think it's cool. That little extra connection to the hobby's history is part of why I do this.

 

Larson books would be a more famous example of that. They are sometimes not the highest graded books out there of a particular comic, but it's the knowledge of their history and their original owner that makes them cool.

[sfcityduck]

I'm still not following why anyone would celebrate one hoard of comics over some other loose survivors (tiny collections of higher grade books, for example) that aren't classified as a pedigree. To me, 10 books surviving 50 years in the back of grandpa's closet despite all odds is just as interesting a story as someone packing a basement full.

 

I don't care whether or not cgc officially recognizes something as a pedigree. I care that I know a little something extra about the book's history, and in some cases know something about the original owner. It just so happens that a pedigree's history is often well-documented (or at least... better documented than grandpa's stash).

 

Example: I recently realized I have a book from an original owner collection that a fellow forum member unearthed 25 years ago. I was able to learn something about the collection. Few people if anybody else know about it, but I still think it's cool. That little extra connection to the hobby's history is part of why I do this.

 

Larson books would be a more famous example of that. They are sometimes not the highest graded books out there of a particular comic, but it's the knowledge of their history and their original owner that makes them cool.

 

I don't get this at all.

 

If you really want a connection to comic history, you should be far more interested in Jerry's All Stars than the Mile High pedigree. Jerry Bails is a legendary collector. Jerry's All Stars inspired the birth of comic fandom. For folks who want a connection to comic history, the books from a pivotal collection should seem pretty cool, perhaps second only to books from a comic professional's collection.

 

But, Edgar Church wasn't a comic collector at all. He had no demonstrable love of comics. He didn't promote the hobby. He just compiled magazines and comics as source material for swipes in his profession as telephone book ad illustrator. The significance of Mile High books isn't Edgar Church, it's the quality of the comics.

 

But, what deserves a higher price: The Mile High D27 or the Allentown D27? We all know the answer: The higher quality Allentown D27.

 

Quality is what matters, regardless of source. A non-pedigree book in higher quality should not be priced lower than a Mile High book in lesser quality. A Mile High book shouldn't command a "premium" over similar quality books. [Which is not to say that if the Mile High book is higher quality than a book of the same grade, it shouldn't be priced higher. I understand the quality of Mile High books. But, I think you should be paying for the level of quality, not the pedigree designation.]

 

Heck, the "Allentown" books aren't even a real pedigree -- no one knows who the OO was and there were a hundred or so books. There's nothing to distinguish the Allentown "pedigree" from the discovery of a lot of comic collections. And if the Allentown D27 had never gotten a pedigree designation it would still be a legendary book.

 

 

[Bunky Brian]

Great topic,

 

Depends on the book, and the grade, many Church copies are not the highest grade, and those that are not, do not get the multiple they used to,

 

Centaur Church copies have dropped in expected value over the past couple of years, fact.

 

I think the more obscure titles have the largest price drops,

 

 

[G.A.tor]

I always had to pay 3-4x guide for Church centaurs, even mid/not high grade copies

[Bunky Brian]

I always had to pay 3-4x guide for Church centaurs, even mid/not high grade copies

 

Well you overpay on everything

[G.A.tor]

I always had to pay 3-4x guide for Church centaurs, even mid/not high grade copies

 

Well you overpay on everything

used to...haven't overpaid for a book in years (thumbs u