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IS THERE NO HONOR AMONG THIEVES?

Started by Guest,

98 posts in this topic

Guest

Guest

Posted
Posted

A couple of months ago we had a lively discussion on the merit of keeping information about “hidden variants” secret”. It was suggested that everybody saw these routinely and that buying them relatively cheap was not possible. I have a case in point tonight that will make it clear that these variants can be won at the early stage of an auction with a reasonable negotiation between buyer and seller. Unfortunately, for me, the story is filled with ethical challenges and no comic book for my work.

 

Yesterday afternoon I received this e-mail from “Horkorp”. Indeed it seemed that Jeremy had struck a big score picking up a reasonably priced copy of Sgt Fury 134 that had obviously escaped the attention of fellow variant collectors. L@@K

 

Subject: Interesting item on eBay web site item# 2228138497: 8 SGT FURY MARVEL WAR COMIC LOT - #8,11,14 etc.

Date: 2/24/2004 2:09:39 PM Mountain Standard Time

From: horkorp@XXXXXX.net

Reply To:

To: GMalloy@aol.co

 

She never responded to my Emails---Jeremy is SOOOOOOOO Lucky

 

Title of item: 8 SGT FURY MARVEL WAR COMIC LOT - #8,11,14 etc.

Seller: littlemissmarcy

Starts: Feb-23-04 19:18:18 PST

Ends: Feb-24-04 11:39:22 PST

Price: Currently $25.00

 

 

There is a lot more to this and later I will post a full chronicle. The question to be answered ultimately:: Was Jeremy lucky?

893scratchchin-thumb.gif

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Darthdiesel

Darthdiesel

Posted
Posted

Drama in variant land....Jeremy and Glenn - feel free to post my PMs to you guys on this situation if you guys feel it has any merit or bearing on the case at hand.

 

What I know:

 

Glenn had circumvented ebay somehow and gotten the seller to set up a BIN auction with the variants in question.

 

Jeremy came upon them 16 hours and 10 minutes hours later and BINned it. I don't know why Glenn hadn't worked it out in a smoother way with the seller, such that he was online with his browser open on the seller's auctions as she was about to list the variant lot with a BIN option. The yshould have been in phone contact with each other so Glenn could hit the BIN seconds after posting confused-smiley-013.gif

 

My take on it is that anyone of the variant collectors or a random Sgt Fury collector had ample time to find the lot and hit the BIN. If Glenn approached them after the fact, would they believe he had a deal in the works and even if they did believe him, what would it be worth to Glenn to hand over the variant lot?

 

As an addendum, this is Jeremy's only copy of the SGT Fury 134 now. I remember him trading his copy to another collector who needed it at the time 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

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buena_vista

buena_vista

Posted
Posted

While I shouldn't be surprised that Glenn is airing his grievance in the forum, it certainly disappoints me.

 

Now I'm being forced to tell the story, as Mister Malloy has implied I'm a thief.

 

Here's the deal ---

 

link

 

Yesterday, I was on e-bay when I ran across the auction in the above link. It had a "hidden" Sgt. Fury 134 30 cent variant. The BIN was low -- so I bought it and I was a happy camper.

 

About an hour later I got an e-mail from Glenn. He told me that he had negotiated a deal with the seller for the BIN. His plan was once she put up the BIN, he would buy the auction and that would be that.

 

Glenn told me that for whatever reason, there was a lag between the time the buyer posted the BIN and until he got to the auction itself.

 

In that space of time, I bought the auction, having no idea any of this took place.

 

So now Glenn wants his comics. He negotiated and made an agreement with the seller and I should allow it to go thru, despite my bid.

 

I contacted the seller, who said she had struck a deal with Glenn, but by e-bay rules, the auction is mine, and whatever I decide is ok with her.

 

After this I contacted Glenn -- I basically said that the fact that he negotiated a deal that did not give him 100% exclusivity was not my fault -- and I see no reason that I should be punished for it. Also, he's making this request because he knows me---a stranger wouldn't even answer a request like that.

 

Keep in mind that Glenn has 3 copies of this book.

 

With all that -- I offered Glenn a compromise. There are other variants that I need and he has in multiples. I proposed we do some sort of deal that would allow me to buy one of my missing variants. Glenn flat out refused -- twice.

 

Mister Malloy does not see the connection. While he said he MIGHT sell me a book, if I give up the auction, my previous requests to buy have been denied.

 

After this whole mess -- I've decided to keep the auction. Glenn's unwillingness to find a solution other than black or white, is what finalized this decision.

 

Now he's implying I'm a thief...

 

Your thoughts & comments are welcome.

 

 

 

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COI

COI

Posted
Posted

You saw an auction, and pulled the trigger, so you did nothing wrong. I can see why Glenn would be aggrivated, but unless there's something else going on, I don't see where any "thievery" occured.

 

Glenn: I would be a little agrivated too, but you could have gotten the to

pre-approve only your own bid. But by getting her to set up an open auction, you risked something like this happening, and you can't really blame buena_vista if he happened by the auction first. Again, maybe I'm missing something? And if this is the full story, and you do have duplicates and/or other variants he needs, why can't you just work something out?

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rob_react

rob_react

Posted
Posted

What I'm wondering is why not just end the auction without a BIN and pay the agreed to price then and there? Does the seller enjoy paying eBay fees? OR, alternatively, why not set it up with a pre-approved bidders list? Either way none of this would have happened.

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Mephisto

Mephisto

Posted
Posted

I could see Glenn being upset if he mentioned that he arraneged this to happen and it was bought intentionally before he had a chance to follow through but if Jeremy found it in passing then I'm not sure how he can be blamed.

I once mentioned to my friend when we were playing a game of wiffle ball in high school that I wanted to get this baseball card from the local store. So about a week later we were playing again and he goes, oh I bought that card. He never even expressed interest in it when I had mentioned I wanted it so I was a bit ticked. If he would have said oh yeah that card is awsome or something maybe I wouldn't have cared as much but it almost seemed like he picked it up merely because I wanted it.

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ShieldAgent

ShieldAgent

Posted
Posted

Hello everyone. Thought I would post my two cents, then return back to my usual lurking status.....

 

I am horkorp. hi.gif Alot of you know me, and I have been a registered board member for a while, and have lurked a lot longer.

 

I am currently on the variant kick. At least right now, it is still fun as I am not down to the last book like Glenn, or within 10 like Carl or Jeremy. I spend a portion of almost everyday searching through hundreds of listings looking for those "hidden variants". I have found enough to keep me looking everyday.

 

I saw that auction not too long after it was posted, and tried to email the seller, as I always do when I find something like this. She never answered my Email. I am online all day with the kind of work I am doing, so I checked the auction at least hourly while I was waiting for a reply. The only reason I was checking the auction was to see if anyone else bid.(this has happened to me before) I would have either asked for a ended auction or a BIN, which I don't think the seller can do if someone bids........at least not easily.

 

Imagine my surprise, when not only did it have a bid, but the auction was ended with a really cheap BIN. 893whatthe.gif I thought Jeremy was the man!!! He beat me to this lady. Then I shot the Email to Glenn and others I correspond with in the collecting community. gossip.gif

 

If the first time I saw the auction it had a BIN, I would have hit it in a heartbeat like Jeremy did. Jeremy was surely in the right place at the right time. I do not think Jeremy is a thief.

 

This is not the first Fury variant I have lost on Ebay.

 

My last comment on the matter is this (for you really smart guys)-- Someone please sell me a SGT Fury 133 or 134 30 cent variant for $25.

--- I did not think there would be any takers ---Jeremy is not a thief.

 

Harry

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Guest

Guest

Posted
Posted
Yep, I am in the dark also, what is your point? confused.gif

 

I’m glad you asked. At first blush this seems like a simple BIN winner. Let me also say I never called Jeremy a thief.

 

But as Paul Harvey would say: Now we’ll here the rest of the story. As noted in the counter, I was the first viewer of this auction on 2/24 I sent the following e-mail to the seller:

 

Subj: Question for seller -- Item #2228138497

Date: 2/23/2004 10:35:45 PM Mountain Standard Time

From: gmalloy@aol.comx

To: gmalloy@aol.comx

Sent from the Internet (Details)

 

 

 

I've been looking for these in mid grade condition. Would you consider a "Buy it Now" for $25.00 ? I have perfect feedback over 300. Many thanks-

--------------------

 

 

Question from: 4gemworks

Title of item: 8 SGT FURY MARVEL WAR COMIC LOT - #8,11,14 etc.

Seller: littlemissmarcy

Starts: Feb-23-04 19:18:18 PST

Ends: Mar-01-04 19:18:18 PST

Price: Starts at $3.99

To view the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2228138497

 

The next afternoon I got the following e-mail back from the seller:

 

Subj: Reply Question for seller -- Item #2228138497

Date: 2/24/2004 1:09:06 PM Mountain Standard Time

From: littlemissmarcy@xxx.com

To: gmalloy@aol.comx

Sent from the Internet (Details)

 

 

 

OK - it's there! - Marcy

 

This message is not flagged. [ Flag Messagxe - Mark as Unread ] To: littlemissmarcy@xxx.com

From: gmalloy@aol.com Add to Address Book

Subject: Question for seller -- Item #2228138497

Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:35:26 PST

 

 

 

I've been looking for these in mid grade condition. Would you consider

a "Buy it Now" for $25.00 ? I have perfect feedback over 300. Many

thanks-

--------------------

 

I went to bid and discovered the item was no longer listed. I then send the following note:

 

Subj: Re: Reply Question for seller -- Item #2228138497

Date: 2/24/2004 1:29:25 PM Mountain Standard Time

From: GMalloy

To: littlemissmarcy@xxx.com

 

 

 

Hi Marcy-

 

I just got your e-mail at 1:10 my time and somebody had already taken it. Since you had marked it specifically for me is there a way you could get that taken care of?

 

I get the following answer:

 

Subject: Re: Reply Question for seller -- Item #2228138497

Date: 2/24/2004 3:08:58 PM Mountain Standard Time

From: littlemissmarcy@xxx.com

 

To: GMalloy@xxx.com

 

Glenn, I'm having email connection problems- Sorry the other person bid on it- I can't believe it happened that quick- I was sending you a reply email when it happened & thought it was you- I really can't do anything now, but I've now had a number of emails on this just since it's sold- I'm guessing from the questions that the #134 had interest to collectors- Am I right? I have a number of other unusual; comics like these from an estate sale so keep an eye on my auctions. Sorry, Marcy

 

I send her this in return

 

Subj: Re: Reply Question for seller -- Item #2228138497

Date: 2/24/2004 3:23:32 PM Mountain Standard Time

From: GMalloy

To: littlemissmarcy@xxx.com

 

 

 

In a message dated 2/24/04 3:08:58 PM Mountain Standard Time, littlemissmarcy@yahoo.com writes:

 

 

I'm guessing from the questions that the #134 had interest to collectors- Am I right?

 

 

Hi Marcy-

 

The 134 has special collectability. I do not have a very good copy of this one and was hoping to improve my collection… Number 134 is a "Marvel price variant." That is between April 1976 and August 1976 a small number of copies were sold with the 30 cent price label. Any Marvel comic in that date range with a 30 cent price is one of those variants. Most have the "Starburst," but not all, a few look regular, with a square box, others have a big circle.

 

For what it is worth, I know Jeremy Ruden pretty well, the guy that won. If you explained to him what happened, I am pretty sure he would give you the OK to sell it to me. If he didn't I'd be surprised. Of course if that were the case, I don't know what else you could do but sell it to him. I was looking at the item the second I got your e-mail and it was no longer there.

 

Thank you so much though for getting back to me.

 

Thanks-

 

 

At that point I had also sent a bit of the communication to Jeremy so he might understand what had happened. I didn’t hear back from Jeremy, but I did get copied on a response she made to him. Apparently he recognized from what I had sent that indeed Marcy had intended to sell the comic to me. This is the response she sends to him (and me)

 

Subject: Re: eBay Item: 8 SGT FURY MARVEL WAR COMIC LOT - #8,11,14 etc. (Item #2228138497)

Date: 2/25/2004 7:29:21 AM Mountain Standard Time

From: littlemissmarcy@xxx.com

 

To: jeremyruden@xxx.com

CC: GMalloy@xxx.com

 

 

Hi, Jeremy- it is true that I placed the "buy it now" at Glenn request and when it went almost immediately I thought he had responded- He quickly sent me an email a few moments later saying he wasn't able to get a bid in before you. It's amazing how these things happen when there are a number of avid collectors looking at ebay as a source. Let me say this, according to the ebay rules, you are the winning buyer, but I will do whatever you want to if you want to work this out with Glenn. So Jeremy, whatever you decide, I would like to have an email from you confirming your decision. - Marcy To: littlemissmarcy@xxx.com

From: gmalloy@aol.com

Subject: Question for seller -- Item #2228138497

Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:35:26 PST

 

 

 

I've been looking for these in mid grade condition. WOuld you consider a "Buy it Now" for $25.00 ? I have perfect feedback over 300. Many thanks---------------------Question from: 4gemworksTitle of item: 8 SGT FURY MARVEL WAR COMIC LOT - #8,11,14 etc. Seller: littlemissmarcyStarts: Feb-23-04 19:18:18 PSTEnds: Mar-01-04 19:18:18 PSTPrice: Starts at $3.99

 

 

Jeremy Ruden wrote:

Marcy,

 

I won the above lot via the buy it now option. After I had won the auction, another collector (whom I am familiar with) contacted me and told me that he had made an off e-bay deal with you to post the buy it now price. He apparently did not respond fast enough, when I placed the winning bid.

Is this story true and what do you want to do now?

Jeremy

(j.r.9)

Having received this from the seller Jeremy now contacts me. While Jeremy acknowledges the seller had intended for me to get the sale, he wants a “good deal” on books that I have advertised as having available all the time.

Subject: Sgt Fury Auction

Date: 2/25/2004 12:00:37 PM Mountain Standard Time

From: jeremyruden@xxx.com

 

To: GMalloy@xxx.com

 

Glenn,

 

Sorry I didn't get back to you yesterday. I wanted to hear what the seller

had to say. As she has left it in my hands, I had to give the matter some

thought.

 

While you're expecting me to totally go along with your position, I find it

troubling that you have no consideration of my own.

 

While you did negotiate the buy it now option with the seller, you left out

a few of your own missteps.

 

1. You did NOT negotiate an exclusive deal with the seller. If you had, she

would have taken it off of e-bay immediately.

 

2. I don't know how much time went by between the time she put up the BIN

until the time I placed my bid. In any event, as someone negotiating under

the table, you should have just coordinated to make sure you'd be the first

to bid.

 

3. The point that really gets to me is that -- you are taking advantage of

our relationship by making this request. You feel the fact that you know me

thru the net & the forum gives you the right to ask me to forgo on a book

that I need --- and that you have numerous copies of.

You might ask a stranger to do the same thing -- but I think we both know

what kind of response you'd get.

 

Having said that, I feel we should try to iron out a compromise, in the

interest of being fair to both sides. I don't think I should give up an

auction I won fair & square for absolutely nothing in return.

There are other books that I need and if you'd give me a good deal on one of

them, I'm sure we can work something out.

 

My want list:

 

Chamber of Chills 22 (30 cent)

Kid Colt Outlaw 206 - 208 (30 cents)

Rawhide Kid 134 (30 cents)

Ringo Kid 28 (30 cents)

Tomb of Darkness 20 (30 cents)

Weird Wonder Tales 15 & 17 (30 cents)

 

 

Let me know what you'd like to do.

 

So I get back with him:

 

Subject: Re: Sgt Fury Auction

Date: 2/25/2004 12:35:01 PM Mountain Standard Time

From: GMalloy

 

To: jeremyruden@xxx.com

 

In a message dated 2/25/04 12:00:37 PM Mountain Standard Time, jeremyruden@hotmail.com writes:

 

 

3. The point that really gets to me is that -- you are taking advantage of

our relationship by making this request. You feel the fact that you know me

thru the net &the forum gives you the right to ask me to forgo on a book

that I need --- and that you have numerous copies of.

You might ask a stranger to do the same thing -- but I think we both know

what kind of response you'd get.

 

 

Jeremy-

 

In this very specialized niche there are few players other than those on the forum that might have even looked at the book let alone bought it. The seller copied me on her response to you earlier and I think it is safe to say that it was exclusively for me. She was having trouble with her online service and was unable to get a message to me as quickly as she wanted. I went to the auction within two minutes of her e-mail being sent. I am reticent to ask sellers to cancel an auction because I want them to have all the protections of eBay. The BIN is the best way to accomplish that purpose.

 

Now putting the shoe on the other foot. If the roles were reversed I would give it up with no strings attached, especially if it were to someone that I knew. If a stranger could show they had arranged a buy it now that was supposed to be for them, I would probably give that up if the seller acknowledged the scenario as being correct.

 

To say you won it fair and square is not exactly correct, however. Fair and square would have been you negotiating a buy it now, taking it out of the hands of chance in an auction format. There was no "buy it now" until I negotiated such a deal. Fair and square would also have been putting in a bid before the buy it now appeared, lessening the chance that the seller changes anything AND then winning the ultimate bidding war if any. Having it fall into your sights in the 30 minute window between her posting the BIN and e-mailing me to convert it involved a lot of luck. As the buyer noted, after she explained what had happened:

 

 

"Let me say this, according to the ebay rules, you are the winning buyer,"

 

I'll leave it up to you Jeremy. You do what you think is right.

 

At this point it breaks down: he comes back

 

>>Just so we're clear, Glenn --- you're rejecting any compromise?

 

Jeremy<<

 

My response:

 

In a message dated 2/25/04 3:19:30 PM Mountain Standard Time, jeremyruden@hotmail.com writes:

 

 

Just so we're clear, Glenn --- you're rejecting any compromise?

 

 

I am not rejecting any compromise. I don't see the two issues as being related. If you want to get issues from me that you need you can approach me with them separately. All I am dealing with is the issue of the auction. If you don't have a problem taking the auction that is your purgative. You have heard the facts from both myself and the seller.

 

There are a number of things I might be willing to do, but I am not going to make them contingent upon this particular auction. Either the comics wee intended for me or not and you got in the middle or you didn't. Once you can answer those questions, you know the right thing to do.

 

Finally he comes back:

 

>>I'm sorry you refuse to comprimise. I'll keep the auction<<

 

So what is the point?

 

1) Legally, as the buyer points out-Jeremy is the winner and without anything from him to the seller he can force a sale.

2) Was this simply a cut and dry purchase of a BIN?

3) Understanding the motives of a seller is there actually a potential for “gray” or is it simply black and white?

4) What as a buyer do you do in a similar situation with somebody you know?

5) As “Horkorp” notes up front: Jeremy was SOOOO lucky. He just didn’t know how lucky.

 

 

I tend to think in black and white and not “fuzzy gray”. I have multiple copies of tough to find books. Thee are a number of ethical issues that come up for grabs here. Plenty of folks, I’m guessing, will question mine. In any case I have my opinion on this as you might guess. I’m more sad and disappointed than mad or upset. But what can I say: Jeremy won the auction!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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