FF 50 shenanigans on Pedigree?

[LordRahl]

I don't buy into Internet hype just because it is posted.

 

Are you saying the allegations as to his behavior are pure hype? The evidence I've seen is far more compelling than that...are you sure you're not just dismissing it or never looked at the evidence in the first place?

 

No I'm not dismissing it. I am fully aware of these allegations (and facts) and also the situation with his Law practice.

 

They are compelling and certainly enough for some to not want to do business with someone with that kind of past. I understand and do not question those decisions.

 

All I am saying is I base my own opinions on the behavior of the person when they deal with me. So far, I have had no reason to say anything negative about Pedigree or Doug.

 

I've had positive experiences buying several TOS books from him. That is all.

 

I haven't sold anything with Pedigree nor have I been witness to unscrupulous business practices.

 

To each his own. When I used the word hype...I meant Internet piling...there is a phenomenon that happens where people who haven't done any biz with someone...they just take the words on a forum for gospel and that means 100% of what is written somehow becomes the truth.

 

I know I might be the minority here who has had a positive experience. That's okay. Just sharing it. Take it for what it is ... Just one person who hasn't had anything negative to post about Doug or Pedigree...I hope I can continue to get good books from him at fair prices and have quality service. That's all I can ask for when making purchases.

 

I also enjoy buying from others on this site and have only had positive experiences so far. With that said, I hope it stays that way.

 

I also respect everyone's opinion here and I AM NOT dismissing any of it.

 

 

 

I have to chime in here. I like Doug. Doug is a nice guy and always treated me well when I used to consign with him. And I consigned with him a lot when Pedigree first came on the scene. I have in the last couple of years completely stopped working with him because I just don't have much trust in the guy anymore. Sad really, as I really liked Doug the few times I talked to him.

 

This isn't about Doug not being a nice guy and not treating his customers well.

 

This is about Doug manipulating the market. Which by the way is considered by most to be "unscrupulous business practices". You have now been a witness to it as it has been pointed out in this example as well as several others in the old thread.

 

He is ripping people off in a round about way. The phantom sale of this FF for $13,400, which is reported in GPA could have an influence on someone to purchase this book at the ask price of $14,500. It has previously sold (this exact copy) for right around $10K TWICE in the last 6 months on CL. I know at least one of those sales was legit as I was the consignor and I didn't shill the book. So market value is probably around $10K but the phantom sale makes it look like there is demand at $13+K.

[Mark 1]

 

No I'm not dismissing it. I am fully aware of these allegations (and facts) and also the situation with his Law practice.

 

They are compelling and certainly enough for some to not want to do business with someone with that kind of past.

 

All I am saying is I base my own opinions on the behavior of the person when they deal with me. So far, I have had no reason to say anything negative about Pedigree or Doug.

 

I've had positive experiences buying several TOS books from him. That is all.

 

I haven't sold anything with Pedigree nor have I been witness to unscrupulous business practices.

 

To each his own.

 

I also respect everyone's opinion here and I AM NOT dismissing any of it.

 

 

 

Forgive me for plucking just some of your comments out here but I just wanted to weigh in on one aspect of what you're saying.

 

So you don't dismiss what people are saying about Doug. You are aware of the factual shenanigans he's been embroiled in.

 

And you know that he engages in some, let's say less than above board practices when it comes to selling comics.

 

Given that, your reasoning for continuing to deal with him is b/c he hasn't personally ed you over.

 

Well, that's your right of course. But I simply don't understand it. And I guess I don't have to. It just baffles me. I mean, would you trust a convicted child molester to watch your kids simply b/c he hasn't actually molested your kids? Obviously you wouldn't and I know that's an extreme example but that's what I gather by your line of thinking.

 

Personally, I don't like to put myself into a position to find out "the hard way". Why wait for the other shoe to drop?

 

But you're right, to each his own.

 

 

Correct.

 

Additionally, by giving him your custom, you are keeping him afloat and in a position to continue to monkey with the market. Because make no mistake, because of his practices, somebody somewhere is getting screwed over and the simple fact that it isn't you doesn't justify continued patronage.

 

We are supposed to be a 'community' but too often, we sure as sh!te don't behave like one.

 

I respect your opinion. I don't agree with it.

 

EVERY dealer out there is out to make money. I've dealt with some that I have refused to spend another penny with because of their attitude or behavior. That's my choice. I don't need to publicly out them or say they are bad for this hobby...even though I believe they are.

 

I belong to this community and enjoy it. I just don't have to listen to every person and how they conduct their business. You choose to not buy from him. Great.

 

I choose to buy from Doug if there is a book I like and the price is what I am willing to spend. End of story. I can't see how I am getting screwed in that situation or how someone else is getting screwed.

 

Anyway, I don't want to get labeled a Doug apologist or shill or anything else.

 

I'm just stating that I have not had any negative experiences with Doug and Pedigree yet. I hope I don't.

 

I really enjoy this site and respect everyone's thoughts. Please return the favor.

 

Thanks

[LordRahl]

Chris,

 

This might have been better placed in the Pedigree thread, where we've already got loads of examples of 'market manipulation'.

 

Oh, wait a minute...

 

Sorry, forgot that that one got locked for no reason whatsoever...other than to keep the gravy train rolling.

 

Yeah Nick, I tried to post it in there first and then realized the thread was locked. To be fair though, I think it got locked when VK went off the deep end and it looked like the downward spiral had begun. CGC mods have been good about letting threads like this roll as long as it stays on course.

[fantastic_four]

So submitting false data is not as bad as not submitting data at all?

 

It depends upon how much of it is false. If 100% is false, Doug's impact is worse. If only 5% is false, Josh's impact is worse. Additionally, if Doug is impacting the data too much, I'd think George would stop accepting data from him...why hasn't he yet?

[nearmint]

Additionally, by giving him your custom, you are keeping him afloat and in a position to continue to monkey with the market. Because make no mistake, because of his practices, somebody somewhere is getting screwed over and the simple fact that it isn't you doesn't justify continued patronage.

 

When I weigh Doug's unethical behavior against Josh's ethical act of refusing to submit data to GPA, I estimate that Josh is affecting me more adversely than Doug is. That doesn't mean I like what he's doing, just that its impact on me--and everyone--is minimal. I wish he'd stop peeing in the pool, but I'm not ready to kick him out of the apartment complex for it.

 

It seems like Josh's refusal to submit data to GPA both hurts and helps the individual collector. If you buy a book on CL for a record price, then not reporting it might hurt you when you re-sell. On the other hand, if you buy something for a bargain price on CL, not reporting it might benefit you greatly when you re-sell.

[LordRahl]

 

No I'm not dismissing it. I am fully aware of these allegations (and facts) and also the situation with his Law practice.

 

They are compelling and certainly enough for some to not want to do business with someone with that kind of past.

 

All I am saying is I base my own opinions on the behavior of the person when they deal with me. So far, I have had no reason to say anything negative about Pedigree or Doug.

 

I've had positive experiences buying several TOS books from him. That is all.

 

I haven't sold anything with Pedigree nor have I been witness to unscrupulous business practices.

 

To each his own.

 

I also respect everyone's opinion here and I AM NOT dismissing any of it.

 

 

 

Forgive me for plucking just some of your comments out here but I just wanted to weigh in on one aspect of what you're saying.

 

So you don't dismiss what people are saying about Doug. You are aware of the factual shenanigans he's been embroiled in.

 

And you know that he engages in some, let's say less than above board practices when it comes to selling comics.

 

Given that, your reasoning for continuing to deal with him is b/c he hasn't personally ed you over.

 

Well, that's your right of course. But I simply don't understand it. And I guess I don't have to. It just baffles me. I mean, would you trust a convicted child molester to watch your kids simply b/c he hasn't actually molested your kids? Obviously you wouldn't and I know that's an extreme example but that's what I gather by your line of thinking.

 

Personally, I don't like to put myself into a position to find out "the hard way". Why wait for the other shoe to drop?

 

But you're right, to each his own.

 

 

Correct.

 

Additionally, by giving him your custom, you are keeping him afloat and in a position to continue to monkey with the market. Because make no mistake, because of his practices, somebody somewhere is getting screwed over and the simple fact that it isn't you doesn't justify continued patronage.

 

We are supposed to be a 'community' but too often, we sure as sh!te don't behave like one.

 

I respect your opinion. I don't agree with it.

 

EVERY dealer out there is out to make money. I've dealt with some that I have refused to spend another penny with because of their attitude or behavior. That's my choice. I don't need to publicly out them or say they are bad for this hobby...even though I believe they are.

 

I belong to this community and enjoy it. I just don't have to listen to every person and how they conduct their business. You choose to not buy from him. Great.

 

I choose to buy from Doug if there is a book I like and the price is what I am willing to spend. End of story. I can't see how I am getting screwed in that situation or how someone else is getting screwed.

 

Anyway, I don't want to get labeled a Doug apologist or shill or anything else.

 

I'm just stating that I have not had any negative experiences with Doug and Pedigree yet. I hope I don't.

 

I really enjoy this site and respect everyone's thoughts. Please return the favor.

 

Thanks

 

I think what Nick is getting at is why do you need to PERSONALLY be screwed by Pedigree in order to stop doing business with him? There is plenty of evidence that at the very least he is manipulating market data and as I said in my post above, ripping people off in a roundabout way.

 

Would you buy books from Dupcack because he hasn't ripped YOU off personally? Not that I think Doug is on the same level as Danny boy. But the analogy works.

[LordRahl]

So submitting false data is not as bad as not submitting data at all?

 

It depends upon how much of it is false. If 100% is false, Doug's impact is worse. If only 5% is false, Josh's impact is worse. Additionally, if Doug is impacting the data too much, I'd think George would stop accepting data from him...why hasn't he yet?

 

Problem is we don't know how much of Pedigree's data to trust. Is it 5%, 50%, 90%

 

At least with Josh, none of the data is out there and you just dont' take the figures into account. I wish he would report to GPA but it is what it is I guess.

[VintageComics]

So submitting false data is not as bad as not submitting data at all?

 

It depends upon how much of it is false. If 100% is false, Doug's impact is worse. If only 5% is false, Josh's impact is worse. Additionally, if Doug is impacting the data too much, I'd think George would stop accepting data from him...why hasn't he yet?

 

Problem is we don't know how much of Pedigree's data to trust. Is it 5%, 50%, 90%

 

At least with Josh, none of the data is out there and you just dont' take the figures into account. I wish he would report to GPA but it is what it is I guess.

 

This comes right back to all the involved GPA discussions we had: People want all or nothing, and nothing is just as good as everything at this point.

 

That's different than submitting everything and having a percentage of manipulated data in there.

 

 

[Mark 1]

 

No I'm not dismissing it. I am fully aware of these allegations (and facts) and also the situation with his Law practice.

 

They are compelling and certainly enough for some to not want to do business with someone with that kind of past.

 

All I am saying is I base my own opinions on the behavior of the person when they deal with me. So far, I have had no reason to say anything negative about Pedigree or Doug.

 

I've had positive experiences buying several TOS books from him. That is all.

 

I haven't sold anything with Pedigree nor have I been witness to unscrupulous business practices.

 

To each his own.

 

I also respect everyone's opinion here and I AM NOT dismissing any of it.

 

 

 

Forgive me for plucking just some of your comments out here but I just wanted to weigh in on one aspect of what you're saying.

 

So you don't dismiss what people are saying about Doug. You are aware of the factual shenanigans he's been embroiled in.

 

And you know that he engages in some, let's say less than above board practices when it comes to selling comics.

 

Given that, your reasoning for continuing to deal with him is b/c he hasn't personally ed you over.

 

Well, that's your right of course. But I simply don't understand it. And I guess I don't have to. It just baffles me. I mean, would you trust a convicted child molester to watch your kids simply b/c he hasn't actually molested your kids? Obviously you wouldn't and I know that's an extreme example but that's what I gather by your line of thinking.

 

Personally, I don't like to put myself into a position to find out "the hard way". Why wait for the other shoe to drop?

 

But you're right, to each his own.

 

 

Correct.

 

Additionally, by giving him your custom, you are keeping him afloat and in a position to continue to monkey with the market. Because make no mistake, because of his practices, somebody somewhere is getting screwed over and the simple fact that it isn't you doesn't justify continued patronage.

 

We are supposed to be a 'community' but too often, we sure as sh!te don't behave like one.

 

I respect your opinion. I don't agree with it.

 

EVERY dealer out there is out to make money. I've dealt with some that I have refused to spend another penny with because of their attitude or behavior. That's my choice. I don't need to publicly out them or say they are bad for this hobby...even though I believe they are.

 

I belong to this community and enjoy it. I just don't have to listen to every person and how they conduct their business. You choose to not buy from him. Great.

 

I choose to buy from Doug if there is a book I like and the price is what I am willing to spend. End of story. I can't see how I am getting screwed in that situation or how someone else is getting screwed.

 

Anyway, I don't want to get labeled a Doug apologist or shill or anything else.

 

I'm just stating that I have not had any negative experiences with Doug and Pedigree yet. I hope I don't.

 

I really enjoy this site and respect everyone's thoughts. Please return the favor.

 

Thanks

 

I think what Nick is getting at is why do you need to PERSONALLY be screwed by Pedigree in order to stop doing business with him? There is plenty of evidence that at the very least he is manipulating market data and as I said in my post above, ripping people off in a roundabout way.

 

Would you buy books from Dupcack because he hasn't ripped YOU off personally? Not that I think Doug is on the same level as Danny boy. But the analogy works.

 

I guess the honest answer....

 

Because there aren't many silver dealers out there who sell CGC books in higher grades. It's a limited pool of business owners and I am in a hobby to collect these books. They don't come easily sometimes and you have to hunt them down.

 

If I cut off businesses for every thing I hear it would be a very small pool of people to do biz with.

 

 

[MrBedrock]

So submitting false data is not as bad as not submitting data at all?

 

It depends upon how much of it is false. If 100% is false, Doug's impact is worse. If only 5% is false, Josh's impact is worse.

Josh's refusal to report has absolutely no impact on the data that is already collected by GPA. It would be great to have the ADDITIONAL data.

But that data is no more important than any other sale that is not included. By the above logic each one of you who sells a comic and doesn't report is harming the GPA data.

You should all be spanked!

[hockey&comicsguy]

 

I respect your opinion. I don't agree with it.

 

EVERY dealer out there is out to make money. I've dealt with some that I have refused to spend another penny with because of their attitude or behavior. That's my choice. I don't need to publicly out them or say they are bad for this hobby...even though I believe they are.

 

I belong to this community and enjoy it. I just don't have to listen to every person and how they conduct their business. You choose to not buy from him. Great.

 

I choose to buy from Doug if there is a book I like and the price is what I am willing to spend. End of story. I can't see how I am getting screwed in that situation or how someone else is getting screwed.

 

Anyway, I don't want to get labeled a Doug apologist or shill or anything else.

 

I'm just stating that I have not had any negative experiences with Doug and Pedigree yet. I hope I don't.

 

I really enjoy this site and respect everyone's thoughts. Please return the favor.

 

Thanks

 

I get where you are coming from. And it's hard to not come off like we're trying to be preachy or look down on someone for dealing with him. It's the idea that by living in your own bubble and ignoring what he is doing or potentially doing to harm others is not a real community-oriented way to go about things. It's like you're saying, I have no problems with him so as long as he screws other people over but not me, i'll buy from him. IMO that's kind of a selfish way to go about things but again, just my opinion.

 

As for the 1st bolded part. It's this community that probably helps more than any other in helping/warning people away from getting mixed up in a bad situation. Let's say there's a really bad, scam artist dealer out there and you were about to buy from them. You're telling me you "don't need to hear about how they conduct their business" You're telling me you wouldn't appreciate hearing from people in this community if they could potentially save you a lot of hassle, headache and $$?

 

I'm glad you've had good experiences with Doug. I hope, be it directly or indirectly, that you don't ever get "screwed over" by him. But to live in your own bubble is naive at best. And helping to keep him in business or keeping him from doing things the right way isn't the way I would handle myself.

[hockey&comicsguy]

So submitting false data is not as bad as not submitting data at all?

 

It depends upon how much of it is false. If 100% is false, Doug's impact is worse. If only 5% is false, Josh's impact is worse.

Josh's refusal to report has absolutely no impact on the data that is already collected by GPA. It would be great to have the ADDITIONAL data.

But that data is no more important than any other sale that is not included. By the above logic each one of you who sells a comic and doesn't report is harming the GPA data.

You should all be spanked!

 

DING!!

[Transplant]

I guess the honest answer....

 

Because there aren't many silver dealers out there who sell CGC books in higher grades. It's a limited pool of business owners and I am in a hobby to collect these books. They don't come easily sometimes and you have to hunt them down.

 

If I cut off businesses for every thing I hear it would be a very small pool of people to do biz with.

 

This is not to pick on you as I've had people I respect here say essentially the same thing. But, good lord. Watch out granny, there's a mint copy of Action #1 at the bottom of the stairs and you're slowing me down.

[Transplant]

You should all be spanked!

Now I'm kind of glad you're not coming to Chicago.

[hockey&comicsguy]

 

No I'm not dismissing it. I am fully aware of these allegations (and facts) and also the situation with his Law practice.

 

They are compelling and certainly enough for some to not want to do business with someone with that kind of past.

 

All I am saying is I base my own opinions on the behavior of the person when they deal with me. So far, I have had no reason to say anything negative about Pedigree or Doug.

 

I've had positive experiences buying several TOS books from him. That is all.

 

I haven't sold anything with Pedigree nor have I been witness to unscrupulous business practices.

 

To each his own.

 

I also respect everyone's opinion here and I AM NOT dismissing any of it.

 

 

 

Forgive me for plucking just some of your comments out here but I just wanted to weigh in on one aspect of what you're saying.

 

So you don't dismiss what people are saying about Doug. You are aware of the factual shenanigans he's been embroiled in.

 

And you know that he engages in some, let's say less than above board practices when it comes to selling comics.

 

Given that, your reasoning for continuing to deal with him is b/c he hasn't personally ed you over.

 

Well, that's your right of course. But I simply don't understand it. And I guess I don't have to. It just baffles me. I mean, would you trust a convicted child molester to watch your kids simply b/c he hasn't actually molested your kids? Obviously you wouldn't and I know that's an extreme example but that's what I gather by your line of thinking.

 

Personally, I don't like to put myself into a position to find out "the hard way". Why wait for the other shoe to drop?

 

But you're right, to each his own.

 

 

Correct.

 

Additionally, by giving him your custom, you are keeping him afloat and in a position to continue to monkey with the market. Because make no mistake, because of his practices, somebody somewhere is getting screwed over and the simple fact that it isn't you doesn't justify continued patronage.

 

We are supposed to be a 'community' but too often, we sure as sh!te don't behave like one.

 

I respect your opinion. I don't agree with it.

 

EVERY dealer out there is out to make money. I've dealt with some that I have refused to spend another penny with because of their attitude or behavior. That's my choice. I don't need to publicly out them or say they are bad for this hobby...even though I believe they are.

 

I belong to this community and enjoy it. I just don't have to listen to every person and how they conduct their business. You choose to not buy from him. Great.

 

I choose to buy from Doug if there is a book I like and the price is what I am willing to spend. End of story. I can't see how I am getting screwed in that situation or how someone else is getting screwed.

 

Anyway, I don't want to get labeled a Doug apologist or shill or anything else.

 

I'm just stating that I have not had any negative experiences with Doug and Pedigree yet. I hope I don't.

 

I really enjoy this site and respect everyone's thoughts. Please return the favor.

 

Thanks

 

I think what Nick is getting at is why do you need to PERSONALLY be screwed by Pedigree in order to stop doing business with him? There is plenty of evidence that at the very least he is manipulating market data and as I said in my post above, ripping people off in a roundabout way.

 

Would you buy books from Dupcack because he hasn't ripped YOU off personally? Not that I think Doug is on the same level as Danny boy. But the analogy works.

 

I guess the honest answer....

 

Because there aren't many silver dealers out there who sell CGC books in higher grades. It's a limited pool of business owners and I am in a hobby to collect these books. They don't come easily sometimes and you have to hunt them down.

 

If I cut off businesses for every thing I hear it would be a very small pool of people to do biz with.

 

 

That's like saying you'll deal with the Devil b/c he's the only game in town. Come on man, you're better than that.

 

I don't even buy high grade SA and I see that shet everywhere. I'm sure there's more than a handful of dealers right on these boards that could get you your fix.

 

[hockey&comicsguy]

 

This is not to pick on you as I've had people I respect here say essentially the same thing. But, good lord. Watch out granny, there's a mint copy of Action #1 at the bottom of the stairs and you're slowing me down.

 

QFT

[hockey&comicsguy]

You should all be spanked!

Now I'm kind of glad you're not coming to Chicago.

 

Jessica Alba sucking on extremities and now spankings.

 

This thread is gaining momentum.

[fantastic_four]

Anyway, I don't want to get labeled a Doug apologist or shill or anything else.

 

I'm just stating that I have not had any negative experiences with Doug and Pedigree yet. I hope I don't.

 

You're not giving us useful info here though, which will get you labelled as an apologist. Doug doesn't do what he does directly to customers, he does it in ways that he thought he could get away with it. If he was screwing over customers frequently, he'd go out of business. All of my buys and sells through Doug have also been positive like yours.

[mica]

I guess the honest answer....

 

Because there aren't many silver dealers out there who sell CGC books in higher grades. It's a limited pool of business owners and I am in a hobby to collect these books. They don't come easily sometimes and you have to hunt them down.

 

If I cut off businesses for every thing I hear it would be a very small pool of people to do biz with.

 

This is not to pick on you as I've had people I respect here say essentially the same thing. But, good lord. Watch out granny, there's a mint copy of Action #1 at the bottom of the stairs and you're slowing me down.

Now that's funny

[Jeffro.]

I guess the honest answer....

 

Because there aren't many silver dealers out there who sell CGC books in higher grades. It's a limited pool of business owners and I am in a hobby to collect these books. They don't come easily sometimes and you have to hunt them down.

 

If I cut off businesses for every thing I hear it would be a very small pool of people to do biz with.

 

This is not to pick on you as I've had people I respect here say essentially the same thing. But, good lord. Watch out granny, there's a mint copy of Action #1 at the bottom of the stairs and you're slowing me down.

 

Indeed. I'm reminded of what topofthetotem said recently,

 

"Some collectors would crash through a group of preschoolers then step on their own mother's throat just to buy a book off of Hitler with the hope of selling it to Satan for a few extra bucks"