Are Overstreet's grading guidelines copyrighted information?

[Rob]

I'm considering making a website all about comic grading. I'm no expert, but am getting tired of poor grading on eBay, and thought the net needed a good grading resource. I would need help from other collectors as yourselves.

 

My question is, what are the copyright issues I need to consider? Can I use Overstreet's guidlines for each grade? Can I use the 10 point scale? If people can find grading guidelines on my site, would Overstreet see that as a deterrant to buying their grading guide? How is it different than a seller on eBay saying, "This comic grades at VF because Overstreet states..."?

[RS]

CGG and CGC use the 10 point scale why not

[garthgantu]

I would think that, if you credited Overstreet when using its grading standards/criteria, they would be okay with that - after all, you're just helping to establish their grading system/guidelines as 'the standard' in some sense. On the other hand, if you copied the information in their Grading Guide verbatim, you'd obviously be violating some copyright...? Not sure where/when you cross over the line on this one...

[Rob]

I wrote Gemstone's editor, and am waiting a reply. There has to be a solution. Either cite them as a reference (with permission) and offer a link to purchase their guide, or paraphrase their info and not quote word for word. I feel their descriptions are vague (maybe written that way to be open to interpretation) and their pictures aren't detailed enough. Many of the flaw arrows point to spots of the comic that look perfect. I find myself saying "what crease?" many times. I envision putting together a simple, yet credible grading resource that is respected in the hobby. I'd have a message board, and encourage collectors to offer their advice and pictures of CGC graded books for reference.

 

What do you think?

[FFB]

I think it sounds like a great idea, but you'll need permission from Gemstone before you can copy their text.

 

I wrote Gemstone's editor, and am waiting a reply. There has to be a solution. Either cite them as a reference (with permission) and offer a link to purchase their guide, or paraphrase their info and not quote word for word. I feel their descriptions are vague (maybe written that way to be open to interpretation) and their pictures aren't detailed enough. Many of the flaw arrows point to spots of the comic that look perfect. I find myself saying "what crease?" many times. I envision putting together a simple, yet credible grading resource that is respected in the hobby. I'd have a message board, and encourage collectors to offer their advice and pictures of CGC graded books for reference.

 

What do you think?

[Deucedriver]

I'm interested in the reply from Gemstone - keep us posted.

 

As far as the actual numbers (1-10), I'm not a copyright lawyer, but I would not think they are protected. If they were, CGG, CGC, CBG etc. would be paying royalties and putting the trademark or copyright symbol next to the numerical grade everytime they use it. Even further, you would have to pay royalties everytime you posted a comic book on E-Bay as "Sub-mariner 2 - 3.5". I think the only way you would get in trouble is if you actually use the text descriptions without their permission.

 

Good luck and give a link to your guide when you get it posted.

 

Sean

 

[FFB]

The numbers are not protected. I was referring only to the text itself. You can use "10.0" or "9.9" or "Near Mint" or "NM or "VF+" or whatever because they are not only not copyrighted, they are not copyrightable in the first place. But Gemstone's unique text in the guide is copyrighted, even though it consists of non-copyrightable ideas. My point was that anyone who is planning on developing a website on grading should seek Gemstone's permission before copying any substantial portion of the text of the OGG.

 

I'm interested in the reply from Gemstone - keep us posted.

 

As far as the actual numbers (1-10), I'm not a copyright lawyer, but I would not think they are protected. If they were, CGG, CGC, CBG etc. would be paying royalties and putting the trademark or copyright symbol next to the numerical grade everytime they use it. Even further, you would have to pay royalties everytime you posted a comic book on E-Bay as "Sub-mariner 2 - 3.5". I think the only way you would get in trouble is if you actually use the text descriptions without their permission.

 

Good luck and give a link to your guide when you get it posted.

 

Sean

[Rob]

If you intend to use our grade descriptions verbatim or copy any significant

section of text from the Grading Guide, you will have to obtain permission

to do so and carry an appropriate citation everywhere our material appears

on such a website. However, it's not in my power to grant such permission.

That must be obtained by writing a letter in the traditional sense,

explaining your request and intentions for use, and sending it to us care of

our Executive Editor.

 

Regards,

Arnold T. Blumberg

Editor, Gemstone Publishing

 

I was also thinking about a gallery of CGC graded books. Select scans, and good examples of how flaws affect grade. That way, I wouldn't necessarily have to list specific flaws that make up a grade (OGG copyright), but rather give many high-detailed examples of CGC grades for one to compare off of.

[FFB]

There is nothing wrong with writing your own text to describe what flaws are allowable in a specific grade. What you are not allowed to do is copy the grade descriptions verbatim or copy the exact text (or the exact text with minor changes) in your website. The "ideas" themselves, (such as what makes a "Gem Mint" comic -- for example, if you were to say that 10.0 permits only the most minute, virtually invisible bindery defects and no other wear, printing defects, or miswrap, etc.) are not copyrightable, as long as you word them in your own way and don't copy the wording of the OGG too closely.

 

Maybe you should just write the letter to Gemstone and see what they say?

 

If you intend to use our grade descriptions verbatim or copy any significant

section of text from the Grading Guide, you will have to obtain permission

to do so and carry an appropriate citation everywhere our material appears

on such a website. However, it's not in my power to grant such permission.

That must be obtained by writing a letter in the traditional sense,

explaining your request and intentions for use, and sending it to us care of

our Executive Editor.

 

Regards,

Arnold T. Blumberg

Editor, Gemstone Publishing

 

I was also thinking about a gallery of CGC graded books. Select scans, and good examples of how flaws affect grade. That way, I wouldn't necessarily have to list specific flaws that make up a grade (OGG copyright), but rather give many high-detailed examples of CGC grades for one to compare off of.

[Rob]

There is nothing wrong with writing your own text to describe what flaws are allowable in a specific grade. What you are not allowed to do is copy the grade descriptions verbatim or copy the exact text (or the exact text with minor changes) in your website. The "ideas" themselves, (such as what makes a "Gem Mint" comic -- for example, if you were to say that 10.0 permits only the most minute, virtually invisible bindery defects and no other wear, printing defects, or miswrap, etc.) are not copyrightable, as long as you word them in your own way and don't copy the wording of the OGG too closely.

 

Maybe you should just write the letter to Gemstone and see what they say?

 

Yeah, I probably will. You're right though, I don't think my descriptions would be word for word from Overstreet anyway, but my guidelines for each grade would be based on their grading guidelines. I want to have a simple online resource for beginners to experts to use. So my NM description may say, "Only the slightest stress line allowed. A 1/4" corner crease is not allowed in NM." That's not verbatim, but it summarizes Overstreet's definition of NM.

[Deucedriver]

I wouldn't worry about it. You aren't copying verbatim and the basic grading standards have been around for a long time. Are they really Overstreets grading guidelines anyway? They are consensus views of comic book grades, and Overstreet had to get them from somewhere - and that place was the entire world of comic collectors. He just started articulating it first in his Price Guide. Let's face it, just a few years ago there was a 100 point scale, CGC went to a 10 point scale, and then Overstreet changed. In the end your grading guide will be your opinion of various grades since every possible defect can't/isn't covered in the CGG. Good luck and let us know when your site is up.

 

Sean