Cleaned And Pressed By Matt Nelson

[a_mysterious_penguin-migra]

Ok, a few newbie questions here:

 

1) Who's this Matt Nelson guy?

 

2) How can you tell it's the same book in both auctions?

 

3) If the book had been cleaned and pressed, wouldn't CGC have given it a PLOD?

 

Number 2 is my main question, as I've seen quite a few threads here speculating that books in various auctions are the same, and I'm curious how you tell. Is it just that there are relatively few copies of a particular issue in mid to high grade, so it's suspicious when it pops up for auction twice in short succession, or are you noticing certain identifying marks in the scans?

 

 

[FFB]

1) Matt Nelson is one of the top comic restorers in the business. His website is www.comicrestoration.com. He also is (or was, since no one seems to know whether the relationship is ongoing at this time) the restoration detection expert for Heritage auctions.

 

2) All of the books are identifiable by bits of writing, scuff marks, or other characteristics that demonstrate that the books are the same.

 

3) Dry cleaning (meaning, through erasure, wonder bread treatment, whatever) is not considered restoration because nothing is added to the book. Wet cleaning (water or solvent cleaning) is considered restoration and will get a PLOD if detected.

 

Pressing is not considered restoration as long as the cover is not taken off of the book. If the cover is removed and if this is detected, the book will get a PLOD.

 

Ok, a few newbie questions here:

 

1) Who's this Matt Nelson guy?

 

2) How can you tell it's the same book in both auctions?

 

3) If the book had been cleaned and pressed, wouldn't CGC have given it a PLOD?

 

Number 2 is my main question, as I've seen quite a few threads here speculating that books in various auctions are the same, and I'm curious how you tell. Is it just that there are relatively few copies of a particular issue in mid to high grade, so it's suspicious when it pops up for auction twice in short succession, or are you noticing certain identifying marks in the scans?

 

[FFB]

What is out of character? As long as he dry cleaned and pressed the book, it is not considered "restoration," and there was nothing "wrong" from CGC's perspective with him resubmitting the book for a higher grade. Heritage allows its employees to bid on the auctions, so while this may be a conflict of interest, it is not concealed from anyone that this may occur.

 

Shameful, just shameful. I've known Matt for a long time and I really hope he didn't do this. If it was him, it's very out of character.

[joe_collector]

Doesn't Metropolis, Bob Storm and other dealers have an advantage over other buyers. Of course they do, and that's the way it's suppose to be.

 

Bad example, as I don't think Bob goes through his own boxes, and then buys back comics from himself to re-sub to CGC. If he does, tell him to see a doctor.

 

A better one would be a weekend dealer who grades and/or prices books for a larger company like Metro. That guy would have insider info on the books in question, and be able to see which comics (in their present grade) might be candidates for clean-and-press submissions.

[AtomicPaul-migration]

I took a brief comparing look at the seller's auctions that you brought up and noted some other comics that seem to be from the Heritage Auctions,

 

Hulk 181's

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=35761&item=2227318991

 

http://apps.heritagecomics.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=13101&Lot_No=16709&src=pr&sid=E71135A6E4CFC7911C2D2EB985A87BF5

 

Another Startling

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=68&item=2227325464

 

http://apps.heritagecomics.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=13052&Lot_No=17501&src=pr&sid=E71135A6E4CFC7911C2D2EB985A87BF5

 

Possibly a few others. Maybe the seller is simply selling them on consignment for someone else?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[drbanner]

What is out of character? As long as he dry cleaned and pressed the book, it is not considered "restoration," and there was nothing "wrong" from CGC's perspective with him resubmitting the book for a higher grade. Heritage allows its employees to bid on the auctions, so while this may be a conflict of interest, it is not concealed from anyone that this may occur.

 

In other words...hate the game, not the playa!

[FFB]

Exactly. I don't like the way that Heritage allows its employees to bid on the auctions, but I don't begrudge Matt his right to do it if it is allowed. A man's gotta eat.

 

Also, as long as CGC permits dry cleaning and pressing without removal in a BLU, people are going to do it. Why pick on one guy when he is clearly playing within "the rules"?

 

What is out of character? As long as he dry cleaned and pressed the book, it is not considered "restoration," and there was nothing "wrong" from CGC's perspective with him resubmitting the book for a higher grade. Heritage allows its employees to bid on the auctions, so while this may be a conflict of interest, it is not concealed from anyone that this may occur.

 

In other words...hate the game, not the playa!

[Red Hook]

I think it's the pressing part they are ok with, not the cleaning.

 

 

[OldGuy]

Why pick on one guy when he is clearly playing within "the rules"?

 

Don't worry, he's just the whipping boy of the day.

[garthgantu]

True, although as has been pointed out previously in this thread, even other Heritage employees don't have the advantage of decades of restoration experience under their belts, nor presumably do they have the luxury of 'restoring' the book(s) themselves without incurring additional cost. And while you might say "well, what's stopping them from just doing amateur pressing and cleaning?" I somehow doubt they'd get the same results that Matt appears to be getting consistently...

 

Are you arguing just for the sake of arguing, or do you have something new to add?

 

Funny, I was going to ask the same question of you!

 

I know how to grow tomatoes, but that doesn't mean you have to begrudge me if you have to buy yours at the grocery store!

 

Please let me know when you figure out how to grow old funnybooks. I'm not much of a tomato fan Seriously, you don't really want to use this analogy, do you? It was made in jest, right?

 

Look, I'm not blaming Matt Nelson for the 'trend' we're seeing... he's simply taking advantage of the situation in which he finds himself. Is he doing anything unethical? Personally, I'd say that's a tough call, but no, he's not. Is Heritage making a mistake by allowing a restoration pro to buy, 'improve' and re-sell books from their auctions? Yes. Even if the whole thing is above-board, it looks very bad from the outside.

[FFB]

What's a little wonder bread between friends?

 

I think it's the pressing part they are ok with, not the cleaning.

 

[sfilosa]

Doesn't Metropolis, Bob Storm and other dealers have an advantage over other buyers. Of course they do, and that's the way it's suppose to be.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

Bad example, as I don't think Bob goes through his own boxes, and then buys back comics from himself to re-sub to CGC. If he does, tell him to see a doctor.

 

 

My real point was that Matt Nelson, living in Dallas, has the opportunity to view books in person and therefore possibly having an advantage over "internet" bidders, when determining what books could be candidates for pressing.

 

What I was saying about major dealers is that they have IN FACT advantages over other buyers.

 

They set-up at conventions and then look through other dealers books, prior to the actual convention starting. If they see a book reasonably priced, they have an opportunitiy to buy it before the genral public. If they see a CGC book (prior to the show opening), that they believe would be a great resubmit candidate, they have an advantage over the poor smucks who have to wait until the convention opens.

 

Do I like this. NO.

Would I do it if I was in there place. OF COURSE.

 

Nothing wrong with having a competive advantage.

[joe_collector]

Nothing wrong with having a competive advantage.

 

Assuming you're a dealer, and not an employee of a major auction house.

 

It's pretty easy to see the difference between Bob looking over some collections, and Matt scouring the auction floor for "resub deals" and then bidding for them at discount, against potentially thousands of active buyers.

 

One is hard work, while the other resembles insider trading.

[Ze-man]

Which brings me back to a topic I have brought up before, as well as several other forumites.

 

Since most of these (if not all) of these resubs after a surface cleaning,and pressing , etc... alomost always recieve a higher grade from CGC, and hence in return demand a higher selling price from the seller.. (whomever it may be.. a heritage employee, or private collector.) and most of these resubs are High dollar amount book.

Then I think it seems logical we should discuss, and debate a possible solution to this matter.

 

I peronally would like to see CGC implement some type of a " cover scan system"," DNA comicprint" or some way to easily identify high dollar comics that pass through their company more then once.

 

Since so many people seem to be bending the curent rules in place by CGC, they are forcing CGC to either continue "as is", since CGC is doing nothing wrong except doing what they are paid to do...which is GRADE THE BOOK IN FRONT OF THEM ,

or CGC needs to create a new way to ensure that a comic when submitted with an estimated dollar amount of $500-$10,000 is not a resubmitted book that has undergone a "legal tune -up" and has just recieved a signifigent bump up in grade.

 

As I said CGC is not really at fault here, they grade the book thats given them, I just think to maintain a high level of intregrity, and a cutting edge aura, then for CGC to "self police " the books that are submited to them , and let the public at least know...... through some written statment on the new lable, or a new color label altogether..

something like this..

 

"First submitted on 6/17/02.. Blue lable.. 6.5............ resubmitted after cleaning and pressing on 8/21/04 ....Blue Lable 8.0.

 

Knowledge is power, and since people are using this loophole to generate money for themselves , we the public should at least try and learn as much as we can about the CGC comic we are buying, especially the High Dollar ones, while CGC does see alot of, comics everyday, you cant tell me some one at some point when grading a high end book , says "hey didnt we just see this book 4 months ago?.. oh well.. since it doesnt qualiy a PLOD..... whammo.. a spiffy new grade, and slab.

 

I dunno as I write this I can already see how complicated this ussue is.. and my points wander...and so far, you Ebay, Heritage , Comiclink police have done a great job of sniffing out resubed books and posting them for all to see.

 

So after all is said and done, CGC might just let us figure this darn mess out for ourselves.

 

 

Zeman

 

 

[FlComicFan]

I've had nothing but good deals with Matt buying several great books from him via Ebay. I dont agree with the way Heritage has set up their business allowing their employees to buy from their auctions . But....... I dont blame him he's just using his expertise in picking out books which may benefit from a clean and press job. Maybe he got sick of watching others profit from his services and is getting his while the getting is good? Any case this whole business is all about greed, more now then ever before. While I like the concept of CGC and graded books I am seeing more and more negative impact on the hobby. Didnt we already rehash this though when a few Nic Cage books came back graded substantially higher after being cleaned and pressed? So Matt makes a few bucks this time instead of some other consigner, big deal.

[OldGuy]

As long as CGC encourages cleaning and pressing, nothing will change. I applaud your desire to try and find a solution, but until CGC thinks there's a problem, there wont be any changes.

[garthgantu]

In a way, what Matt is doing is similar to this scenario:

- prospective resto customer contacts Matt, sends him books to peruse/screen.

- Matt contacts prospective customer, and says "well, I can move the books in question by an average of 1.5 grades each, in my estimation. This work will cost approx. $1,000. OR you can sell me the books as-is for a total of $XXXX and save the time and trouble of getting them cleaned and pressed and sold."

 

Except that in the current real-world scenario, Matt doesn't have to wait for books to come to him, he just steps into the 'receiving' room at Heritage.

 

It's really all on Heritage, far as I'm concerned - yes, it would be nice if CGC could somehow recognize these resubs when they come thru the door the second time, but I can think of many reasons why CGC doesn't want to deal with the policing aspects. Yes, it would be good if Matt didn't take such complete advantage of the position he's in, but under the circs most of us would probably do the same..?

It's really up to Heritage to decide if this is how they want their business perceived - as a turnkey service for Heritage employees to cherry-pick the best books that come thru the doors and leave the rest for the "average Joes."

 

Oh, and I do like the fact that Matt is now even denying Heritage whatever monies they might make off the second sale of the book(s) after cleaning/pressing, by selling 'em on eBay ! Maybe the buyer's premium is waived for Heritage employees, but the seller's/consignor's premium is not ?

[FlComicFan]

Yes he would have to pay fees both when he bought the books and sold them on heritage I think when they answered the last thread with the Nic Cage resubmits they mentioned that the employees had no ädvantage"other than of course being able to sit all day looking at the stuff at their convenience Most of us cant make every Heritage sale in person to look at the books and even when you do can you ask to see every lot to peruse at your choice those that can be improved? I dont think you would have enough time so I guess these are perks of working with an auction house. Cant blame CGC on this one they have admitted as most restorers would tell you that a good press job and cleaning arent detectable.

[Red Hook]

What's a little wonder bread between friends?

 

 

[Aces]

 

Where is his fat buddy the Pillberry Doughboy?

He can press the book after it's been dry cleaned by rolling on it.