Rarest Silver Age Marvel Keys? 0

[jjonahjameson1]

I think it was Gerry Ross who showed me a vg-ish copy in San Diego this year. He was asking $200, but would have come down some, I'm sure. I wanted it, but only had $100 left.

That was the only copy I've seen, ever.

Gerry Ross was roaming around at SD? Incredible. The only place that guy should be in is a jail cell.

 

+ 2 from past bad mail order experience.

Think Gerry was asking $2k on his coverless Whiz 1 (2) at SDCC July/10.

 

+ 3. I can't imagine there's a bigger liar and thief in the industry than Gerry. Total slimeball.

[ComicConnoisseur]

I think it was Gerry Ross who showed me a vg-ish copy in San Diego this year. He was asking $200, but would have come down some, I'm sure. I wanted it, but only had $100 left.

That was the only copy I've seen, ever.

Gerry Ross was roaming around at SD? Incredible. The only place that guy should be in is a jail cell.

 

+ 2 from past bad mail order experience.

Think Gerry was asking $2k on his coverless Whiz 1 (2) at SDCC July/10.

 

+ 3. I can't imagine there's a bigger liar and thief in the industry than Gerry. Total slimeball.

I never heard of this guy Gerry Ross , what`s the deal?

[KirbyJack]

I think it was him. I got a bad sense about the guy, but I don't know of his industry transgressions.

[jjonahjameson1]

I think it was Gerry Ross who showed me a vg-ish copy in San Diego this year. He was asking $200, but would have come down some, I'm sure. I wanted it, but only had $100 left.

That was the only copy I've seen, ever.

Gerry Ross was roaming around at SD? Incredible. The only place that guy should be in is a jail cell.

 

+ 2 from past bad mail order experience.

Think Gerry was asking $2k on his coverless Whiz 1 (2) at SDCC July/10.

 

+ 3. I can't imagine there's a bigger liar and thief in the industry than Gerry. Total slimeball.

I never heard of this guy Gerry Ross , what`s the deal?

 

Back in the 70's/early 80's he joined up with Robert Crestahl to form 1,000,000 comics. If you read comics in the late 80's to early 90's their ads were in all the Marvel Comics for buying and selling via mail order.

 

Gerry would over-grade items he was selling, and would not disclose repair/restoration on the books. Furthermore, he would not refund your money when you called him on it. The repair work was often conducted by Gerry, but I'm not certain who performed the restoration work.

 

In the mid-to-late 80's, 1,000,000 started to franchise their operations and a family bought into the franchise opportunity here in Toronto. As part of the franchise start-up package, the franchisee was to receive $40K in back-issue comics, including several early high grade Silver Age Marvel keys. Well, Gerry ripped off the franchisees in this regard. For example, they were supposed to receive a VF copy of an early Hulk issue (#3 or 4) and what they received was a copy with a detached cover, and a multidude of like overgraded examples.

 

All I can say is buyer beware!

[royig-migration]

I think it was Gerry Ross who showed me a vg-ish copy in San Diego this year. He was asking $200, but would have come down some, I'm sure. I wanted it, but only had $100 left.

That was the only copy I've seen, ever.

Gerry Ross was roaming around at SD? Incredible. The only place that guy should be in is a jail cell.

 

 

[kimik]

Gerry was at the Calgary show this spring with a ton of low to mid grade books. He had a restored AF #15 that looked to be in GD/GD+ (he was calling it VG I think) shape that someone bought. Gerry was asking $3K or $4K for it, and I think the guy ended up paying $1800 - $2000 for it which was not that bad provided it was not trimmed. Otherwise, everything else looked overpriced so I guess he was taking a start high, deal lower approach to the show.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Doofus.

Lighten up, some contributors to the thread wanted to discuss the rarest keys in terms of high grade. Others wanted to discuss the rarest keys irrespective of genre. No need to try and run the thread over with a steamroller.

 

 

The guy asks a simple question, and other people keep trying to answer questions he didn't ask.

 

My tongue-in-cheek reply was a lighthearted jab at that fact. Lighten up, Francis.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Good feedback so far.

 

I think some people confuse low CGC census numbers with true scarcity. Going with the low census definition, is FF #3 truly rarer or are there just less graded copies out there because it's not as desirable as #4 or #5? I'm pretty sure its the latter.

 

I guess the core of my question is, taking in to account both raw and slabbed books, which key books are truly rare...not just low slab census numbers?

 

If you were talking about Bronze age or later, I'd agree with you....

 

Even late Silver...

 

But I don't think that argument holds for books like FF #3 vs 4 or 5, not 10+ years after CGC.

 

Besides....all we *really* have to analyze is the census, and even that's off. Everything else is anecdotal.

[jjonahjameson1]

Gerry was at the Calgary show this spring with a ton of low to mid grade books. He had a restored AF #15 that looked to be in GD/GD+ (he was calling it VG I think) shape that someone bought. Gerry was asking $3K or $4K for it, and I think the guy ended up paying $1800 - $2000 for it which was not that bad provided it was not trimmed. Otherwise, everything else looked overpriced so I guess he was taking a start high, deal lower approach to the show.

 

Hopefully, the purchaser checked the pages to ensure it wasn't a married copy, replaced stapes, etc...just some of the minor handiwork Gerry is known for.

[ComicConnoisseur]

I think it was Gerry Ross who showed me a vg-ish copy in San Diego this year. He was asking $200, but would have come down some, I'm sure. I wanted it, but only had $100 left.

That was the only copy I've seen, ever.

Gerry Ross was roaming around at SD? Incredible. The only place that guy should be in is a jail cell.

 

+ 2 from past bad mail order experience.

Think Gerry was asking $2k on his coverless Whiz 1 (2) at SDCC July/10.

 

+ 3. I can't imagine there's a bigger liar and thief in the industry than Gerry. Total slimeball.

I never heard of this guy Gerry Ross , what`s the deal?

 

Back in the 70's/early 80's he joined up with Robert Crestahl to form 1,000,000 comics. If you read comics in the late 80's to early 90's their ads were in all the Marvel Comics for buying and selling via mail order.

 

Gerry would over-grade items he was selling, and would not disclose repair/restoration on the books. Furthermore, he would not refund your money when you called him on it. The repair work was often conducted by Gerry, but I'm not certain who performed the restoration work.

 

In the mid-to-late 80's, 1,000,000 started to franchise their operations and a family bought into the franchise opportunity here in Toronto. As part of the franchise start-up package, the franchisee was to receive $40K in back-issue comics, including several early high grade Silver Age Marvel keys. Well, Gerry ripped off the franchisees in this regard. For example, they were supposed to receive a VF copy of an early Hulk issue (#3 or 4) and what they received was a copy with a detached cover, and a multidude of like overgraded examples.

 

All I can say is buyer beware!

thanks for the warning, good to know about this comic dealer. (thumbs u

 

[ComicConnoisseur]

Sorry, but discussing 'rare' Marvel keys is pointless = they are all plentiful.

I was at the Chicago Con yesterday and if you had the money, any Marvel key you wanted was available. Heck, Metropolis alone has multiple copies of everything.

Don't get me wrong, I like Marvel, I collect Marvel, but rare ? No way.

That`s why I tried to add the demand factor to the rare part, none of these books are rare, you got the cash they are yours.

[AGGIEZ]

Good feedback so far.

 

I think some people confuse low CGC census numbers with true scarcity. Going with the low census definition, is FF #3 truly rarer or are there just less graded copies out there because it's not as desirable as #4 or #5? I'm pretty sure its the latter.

 

I guess the core of my question is, taking in to account both raw and slabbed books, which key books are truly rare...not just low slab census numbers?

 

If you were talking about Bronze age or later, I'd agree with you....

 

Even late Silver...

 

But I don't think that argument holds for books like FF #3 vs 4 or 5, not 10+ years after CGC.

 

Besides....all we *really* have to analyze is the census, and even that's off. Everything else is anecdotal.

 

 

I think collecting experience counts for something...and I'm fine with anecdotal answers. I realize there isn't a single resource to determine scarcity, thus the question here to those who would know best. (thumbs u

[RockMyAmadeus]

Good feedback so far.

 

I think some people confuse low CGC census numbers with true scarcity. Going with the low census definition, is FF #3 truly rarer or are there just less graded copies out there because it's not as desirable as #4 or #5? I'm pretty sure its the latter.

 

I guess the core of my question is, taking in to account both raw and slabbed books, which key books are truly rare...not just low slab census numbers?

 

If you were talking about Bronze age or later, I'd agree with you....

 

Even late Silver...

 

But I don't think that argument holds for books like FF #3 vs 4 or 5, not 10+ years after CGC.

 

Besides....all we *really* have to analyze is the census, and even that's off. Everything else is anecdotal.

 

 

I think collecting experience counts for something...and I'm fine with anecdotal answers. I realize there isn't a single resource to determine scarcity, thus the question here to those who would know best. (thumbs u

 

Fair enough.

 

One thing I've learned, having not only the CGC census, but the PCGS and NGC censuses (censi..?) before that, is that the items that are worth slabbing tend to get slabbed, eventually....even the rarest, and most valuable items...end up in slabs, just because that's the way the market has headed. (Two of the three privately owned 1913 Liberty Nickels have resided in both PCGS and NGC slabs, for example.)

 

So, while the census is never exactly correct, unless we're dealing with tiny numbers, it is, for items that are worth slabbing, a generally reliable indicator of what really exists in what general grades. I can say, with fairly good data to back me up, that books like FF #3 are probably rarer in all grades than #4 and #5, simply because it has lower population numbers.

 

And this information lines up with the conventional wisdom of comic collecting...that is, when FF #3 had come out, it was the only Marvel superhero book on the market, DC was king, and collectors in past decades scorned "non #1s" legendarily. So it's easy to understand how such a book might not survive to this day in numbers as great as, say, #4 or #5, which feature stellar villain debuts (and those buying #4 off the rack weren't likely to know that Subby had been around for 20+ years by that point.)

 

10+ years into the census, and it's now just starting to gel into reliable trends and indicators, especially for keys, popular characters, and Gold and Silver in general. Not precise....but reliable nonetheless. If it took 10 years for 373 copies of FF #3 (which includes resubs)...it's pretty unlikely that another 75 or so are going to show up before another #4 or #5 or three does.

 

[kimik]

Gerry was at the Calgary show this spring with a ton of low to mid grade books. He had a restored AF #15 that looked to be in GD/GD+ (he was calling it VG I think) shape that someone bought. Gerry was asking $3K or $4K for it, and I think the guy ended up paying $1800 - $2000 for it which was not that bad provided it was not trimmed. Otherwise, everything else looked overpriced so I guess he was taking a start high, deal lower approach to the show.

 

Hopefully, the purchaser checked the pages to ensure it wasn't a married copy, replaced stapes, etc...just some of the minor handiwork Gerry is known for.

 

I don't think it would matter. Gerry disclosed it was restored and the buyer said he was happy to own a "nice VG" copy of a book he would otherwise be unable to afford.

[rodan57]

And this information lines up with the conventional wisdom of comic collecting...that is, when FF #3 had come out, it was the only Marvel superhero book on the market, DC was king, and collectors in past decades scorned "non #1s" legendarily. So it's easy to understand how such a book might not survive to this day in numbers as great as, say, #4 or #5, which feature stellar villain debuts (and those buying #4 off the rack weren't likely to know that Subby had been around for 20+ years by that point.)

 

#1s and 2s were often published in greater number than #3s as it would often take months to get back information on sales in the 1960s ... publishers would play it safe and ease off on #3s should the "still not-known" sales be poor (less returns for them).

[MasterChief]

Good feedback so far.

 

I think some people confuse low CGC census numbers with true scarcity. Going with the low census definition, is FF #3 truly rarer or are there just less graded copies out there because it's not as desirable as #4 or #5? I'm pretty sure its the latter.

 

I guess the core of my question is, taking in to account both raw and slabbed books, which key books are truly rare...not just low slab census numbers?

 

If you were talking about Bronze age or later, I'd agree with you....

 

Even late Silver...

 

But I don't think that argument holds for books like FF #3 vs 4 or 5, not 10+ years after CGC.

 

Besides....all we *really* have to analyze is the census, and even that's off. Everything else is anecdotal.

 

 

I think collecting experience counts for something...and I'm fine with anecdotal answers. I realize there isn't a single resource to determine scarcity, thus the question here to those who would know best. (thumbs u

 

Fair enough.

 

One thing I've learned, having not only the CGC census, but the PCGS and NGC censuses (censi..?) before that, is that the items that are worth slabbing tend to get slabbed, eventually....even the rarest, and most valuable items...end up in slabs, just because that's the way the market has headed. (Two of the three privately owned 1913 Liberty Nickels have resided in both PCGS and NGC slabs, for example.)

 

So, while the census is never exactly correct, unless we're dealing with tiny numbers, it is, for items that are worth slabbing, a generally reliable indicator of what really exists in what general grades. I can say, with fairly good data to back me up, that books like FF #3 are probably rarer in all grades than #4 and #5, simply because it has lower population numbers.

 

And this information lines up with the conventional wisdom of comic collecting...that is, when FF #3 had come out, it was the only Marvel superhero book on the market, DC was king, and collectors in past decades scorned "non #1s" legendarily. So it's easy to understand how such a book might not survive to this day in numbers as great as, say, #4 or #5, which feature stellar villain debuts (and those buying #4 off the rack weren't likely to know that Subby had been around for 20+ years by that point.)

 

10+ years into the census, and it's now just starting to gel into reliable trends and indicators, especially for keys, popular characters, and Gold and Silver in general. Not precise....but reliable nonetheless. If it took 10 years for 373 copies of FF #3 (which includes resubs)...it's pretty unlikely that another 75 or so are going to show up before another #4 or #5 or three does.

 

One would be wise to exercise caution when utilizing the CGC census as a yardstick to measure "scarcity" or quality/quantity of certified books.

 

Although the certification database is populated on the front end with initial certification, there is absolutely no way to reconcile the database on the backend to reflect an accurate census. Reason being, when a book goes through subsequent recertification the label or more precisely the certification number is the linchpin for population report accuracy.

 

Unless the current certification label for a given resubmission is returned, the population report is subject to inaccuracies and may in fact be completely misleading.

 

As time goes by (ten years as mentioned) the level of resubmissions compounds without label returns (owners, dealers and manipulators cracking books but fail to return labels), and the reliability and accuracy of the census continues to degrade. So much so, the population report for a good many issues will, or already has, become completely compromised and invalid.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

As time goes by (ten years as mentioned) the level of resubmissions compounds without label returns (owners, dealers and manipulators cracking books but fail to return labels), and the reliability and accuracy of the census continues to degrade. So much so, the population report for a good many issues will, or already has, become completely compromised and invalid.

 

 

As already mentioned, resubs are a serious factor in considering the validity of the census.

 

But.....as has been already demonstrated on the coin side (23 years and counting), while resubs do account for as much as 20-30% of a population's number, the rarer the item is, the more generally accurate....generally being the key word...the census will be.

 

As such, the census is a broad indicator of population. I agree that it is not, cannot, and never will be totally accurate, for any book. But I do not in any way agree with the idea that the information can ever become "completely compromised and invalid", unless someone with a lot of money were to attempt to perpetrate such an act on the census, and then it would affect but a small handful of items at most.

 

The information...even for the most re-subbed books of all...still bears SOME value in a statistical analysis of population.

 

The important thing is to remember that the census and re-subs should always be mentioned in the same breath.

[MasterChief]

Totally agree with you in mentioning census and re-subs in the same breath. I wish, however, that I could share your confidence in the census, but I simply cannot.

 

After several years of conducting in-depth research on literally thousands of certification numbers and comic book related transactions, I have come to the conclusion that the census is misleading and unreliable.

 

Collectors, sellers, dealers, manipulators, and scammers have removed an unimaginable number of books from their holders without notifying CGC. In fact, CGC themselves have failed to update the census on occasion when books were recertified. Case in point.

 

The Batman #11 book that was originally graded Universal 7.5; manipulated (trimmed) and then recertified as Universal 8.0; recalled after being identified as trimmed in the marketplace; and then subsequently recertified a 3rd time as Restored 8.0, is represented twice in the census.

 

This is but one example.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rob_react]

Everyone understands that the census isn't 100% accurate. Just because a measurement isn't 100% accurate doesn't mean it's not valuable. I know this is the CGC forum and there are people with pitchforks at the ready if anyone dares make an error (OMG, CGC MISSED TEH RESTORATIONZ! BURN THEM TO TEH GROUNDZ,) but I don't subscribe to the idea that something has to be a model of purity for it to be valuable. I mean, every measurement has some error baked right in.

 

So for me, even if the census is 20-30% inflated by resubs then wouldn't that inflation spread itself around across titles, normalizing the data in a relative sense? If it does, then I don't really care about the inflation since knowing the absolute number of graded copies of any book isn't as interesting to me as knowing the relative scarcity versus books from the same era.

[MasterChief]

You can secure from general quarters, Rob. No pitchforks here.

 

Since everyone understands the census isn’t accurate, perhaps I should have just posted a link to CGC’s legal notice as a reminder.

 

http://www.cgccomics.com/legal_notice.asp