Rarest Silver Age Marvel Keys? 0

[Flash105]

It actually warms my heart to have a 1 of 5 and know there may only be 3 or 4.

[Blind Owl]

Totally agree with you in mentioning census and re-subs in the same breath. I wish, however, that I could share your confidence in the census, but I simply cannot.

 

After several years of conducting in-depth research on literally thousands of certification numbers and comic book related transactions, I have come to the conclusion that the census is misleading and unreliable.

 

Collectors, sellers, dealers, manipulators, and scammers have removed an unimaginable number of books from their holders without notifying CGC. In fact, CGC themselves have failed to update the census on occasion when books were recertified. Case in point.

 

The Batman #11 book that was originally graded Universal 7.5; manipulated (trimmed) and then recertified as Universal 8.0; recalled after being identified as trimmed in the marketplace; and then subsequently recertified a 3rd time as Restored 8.0, is represented twice in the census.

 

This is but one example.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have to agree with on this.

 

I personally own an unslabbed (very rare) book that was slabbed as a 7.0 copy (highest graded copy) twice by CGC. So the census now shows 2 copies and if i ever slab my copy, it will show 3 copies at 7.0 and all would actually be the very same copy.

 

I wish there was a data base of scans of certified books on the rarer titles so we would then have a better idea of resubmitted books on the census, and therefore make it more accurate for collector's who are interested in this information. They could make it a premium CGC membership to help defer the costs involved in having the scans available on the database. Of course this would only make sense for just the books that are actually scarce. Silver Age Marvels are so plentiful, what would be the point of doing it on these books....

[RockMyAmadeus]

The heretofore unmentioned beauty of the census is this: it is a maximum POSSIBLE number. That is, you know the most amount of slabs that could exist for any single submitted book. Sure, there may be only 8 actual copies, with a census of 12, but at least you know there aren't MORE than 12 currently slabbed.

 

Consider it this way: in coins, the 1913 Liberty nickel exists in a mintage of 5. We know there are no more. And yet, the combined census figures show that there are 6 total in the population. Obviously, this isn't correct. And, we know it's not correct. But because of "cross-subbing" (a phenomenon as yet unknown in comics), the reports show one more coin than actually exists (and two of them have NEVER been certified.)

 

Eventually, the way things are tracked and recorded, what is actually known to exist will be figured out, and, again, the census will be used for what it is most useful: a broad indicator of what exists, in what grades.

 

By the by....trying to track what's been re-subbed? Forget it. It's not in the interests of those doing the re-subbing to have the general public know that books that may have resided in lower grade slabs are now in higher grades.

 

Unless there's a pedigree attached (consider the Mile High Rawhide 6, last year a 9.4, this year a 9.6), or obvious markers, it will be nearly impossible to track any but the rarest of books in the resub process.

[mysterio]

By the by....trying to track what's been re-subbed? Forget it. It's not in the interests of those doing the re-subbing to have the general public know that books that may have resided in lower grade slabs are now in higher grades.

 

I wouldn't guess that this is in CGC's interests either, and they keep the census...

[RockMyAmadeus]

By the by....trying to track what's been re-subbed? Forget it. It's not in the interests of those doing the re-subbing to have the general public know that books that may have resided in lower grade slabs are now in higher grades.

 

I wouldn't guess that this is in CGC's interests either, and they keep the census...

Love your av. I'm guessing most folks wouldn't be able to tell where it's from. I wonder how many kids stole it just for that particular reason....

 

 

 

[namisgr]

The problem with the census is not simply that it overstates the numbers for each high grade comic, but rather that it does so differentially, as issues differ markedly in their frequencies of resubmission.

 

Major keys, minor keys with high dollar value, and ordinary issues without a magical 9.8 or 9.6 example get the resubmission treatment to different degrees, and to far greater degress than other comics. I'd venture a guess that as many as half of the mid to high grade AF15 and FF1 entries in the database are resubmissions, the vast majority of which done without inclusion of the previous label. And therein lies the problem: the census numbers are often no better than rough guesstimates. Yes, the census is and will continue to be useful, but it should be recognized also that it's woefully and differentially inaccurate. It's especially inaccurate for high grade early SA Marvels, which are in high demand, are uncommon, and as a group lead the way in resubmissions. It's also highly inaccurate at the other end of the spectrum, the one Blind Owl described - for books that truly scarce in high grade, resubmissions may falsely double or triple the apparent number of examples.

[RockMyAmadeus]

The problem with the census is not simply that it overstates the numbers for each high grade comic, but rather that it does so differentially, as issues differ markedly in their frequencies of resubmission.

 

Major keys, minor keys with high dollar value, and ordinary issues without a magical 9.8 or 9.6 example get the resubmission treatment to different degrees, and to far greater degress than other comics. I'd venture a guess that as many as half of the mid to high grade AF15 and FF1 entries in the database are resubmissions, the vast majority of which done without inclusion of the previous label. And therein lies the problem: the census numbers are often no better than rough guesstimates. Yes, the census is and will continue to be useful, but it should be recognized also that it's woefully and differentially inaccurate. It's especially inaccurate for high grade early SA Marvels, which are in high demand, are uncommon, and as a group lead the way in resubmissions. It's also highly inaccurate at the other end of the spectrum, the one Blind Owl described - for books that truly scarce in high grade, resubmissions may falsely double or triple the apparent number of examples.

 

I guess that depends on how different people consider how "woefully and differentially inaccurate" the census is.

 

 

Coins have had this exact same problem for 20+ years. It's not new. The best way to deal with this problem is to use the census in combination with auction data, so that truly rare books become tracked according to their individual appearances on the market. Everyone gives a wink and a nod to the census, but it's still used every day by every major auction house, in tandem with previous appearances by the same item, if truly rare (25 known or less.)

 

We're all really just saying the same exact thing: the census isn't accurate...we just differ on degree of inaccuracy and its effect on the market.

[david20009]

I think it is fair to say that some of the early Marvel keys are rare, at least in high grade.

 

Just using the census, with its faults of listing some resubbed books two or three times you can see there are only 15 copies of TTA 35, 25 copies of Hulk 1 and 26 copies of FF1 at VF or above. Sure there are a number of unslabbed high grade copies as well but to me, given the demand for these early books, that indicates that they are relatively rare, at least in high grade.

 

With some of these books it is not simply that they are available immediately, even if you have money to spend. You might have the cash but that doe not mean you can find a high grade copy of TTA 35 available to buy.

 

Early JIM, ST and SGT Fury are not overly easy to find in high grade. They may be more plentiful that Golden Age books that got recycled in paper drives or burnt in the 50's but they are still not that common.

 

Any Marvel 1964 and beyond is fairly easy to acquire unless it is something oddball like Groovy.

[Galactus]

I think it is fair to say that some of the early Marvel keys are rare, at least in high grade.

 

Just using the census, with its faults of listing some resubbed books two or three times you can see there are only 15 copies of TTA 35, 25 copies of Hulk 1 and 26 copies of FF1 at VF or above. Sure there are a number of unslabbed high grade copies as well but to me, given the demand for these early books, that indicates that they are relatively rare, at least in high grade.

 

With some of these books it is not simply that they are available immediately, even if you have money to spend. You might have the cash but that doe not mean you can find a high grade copy of TTA 35 available to buy.

 

Early JIM, ST and SGT Fury are not overly easy to find in high grade. They may be more plentiful that Golden Age books that got recycled in paper drives or burnt in the 50's but they are still not that common.

 

 

I would add that there are only 23 copies of TTA #27 and 31 copies of Sgt Fury #1 in VF and above on the census, making them (along with the 3 mentioned above) the 5 hardest Silver Age Marvels keys to find in high grade. In actual fact the Jim #83 with 42 copies, is one of the easiest of those early Silver Age Key Marvels to obtain (or so it would seem)

[Peter Loves Gwen]

ASM #11 is a tough book by the HG census. As yet there are very few to be had, and when they do turn up look out.

[PastePotPete]

Another truly scarce key Marvel is Rawhide Kid #17. Published in 1960 (and so arguably more Atlas than Marvel - the same argument applies to TTA27, I think), the comic is the origin and true first appearance of the Rawhide Kid, sports Lee and Kirby/Ayers story and art, and is impossible to find in anything above Fine. Only 4 copies have ever been certified, with the top census copy being a single 8.0.

 

We have a Rawhide Kid 17 in the Sunday Internet auction at Heritage this week:

Rawhide Kid 17 at Heritage

 

I guess I can't help with the "high grade" part, this copy looks really nice inside the bag though!

 

 

[Pele the Just]

On 8/22/2010 at 10:09 AM, jjonahjameson1 said:

 

Hopefully, the purchaser checked the pages to ensure it wasn't a married copy, replaced stapes, etc...just some of the minor handiwork Gerry is known for.

I just wanted to point out that my Hulk #1 is a Gerry Ross "special". It's very well restored (married copy), in fact, it was so well restored that the first time I sent it to CGC (in their 2nd year of business) it received a Blue label 5.5. It wasn't until I sent it back for a reshell/regrade, many years later, that it was caught, then it got the purple label. I was crushed. I still have it, because it was the first big key I ever bought, and to remind me to never take any major deal at face value.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Sorry to hear about that. I, too, got caught with a married copy that wasn't disclosed (though it hadn't been through CGC.) An Avengers #1 5.5...married 5th wrap. Not Ross...or maybe it was, through intermediaries...but I was heartbroken, because I'd gotten it signed by Stan. 

Avoid House of Secrets in Burbank, CA. That's where I bought it. It is my belief and opinion, based on my personal experience, that because the owner doesn't care a whit about restoration, that it is a dumping ground for restored books bought at low prices, cracked out, and sold raw...for much higher prices...to them.

Hulk #181, Avengers #1, JLA #2 with a missing page...there were more, too.

A shame.

[blazingbob]

On 8/20/2010 at 12:51 AM, AGGIEZ said:

What are the rarest Silver Age Marvel keys out there? Mainly interested in the key 1st appearance books.

 

 

While not a 1st appearance I have found Strange Tales #111 to be very difficult to find in 9.2 or better.  

[NoMan]

1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Sorry to hear about that. I, too, got caught with a married copy that wasn't disclosed (though it hadn't been through CGC.) An Avengers #1 5.5...married 5th wrap. Not Ross...or maybe it was, through intermediaries...but I was heartbroken, because I'd gotten it signed by Stan. 

Avoid House of Secrets in Burbank, CA. That's where I bought it. It is my belief and opinion, based on my personal experience, that because the owner doesn't care a whit about restoration, that it is a dumping ground for restored books bought at low prices, cracked out, and sold raw...for much higher prices...to them.

Hulk #181, Avengers #1, JLA #2 with a missing page...there were more, too.

A shame.

Good to know. Thank you for sharing. My experience with them has not been favorable either. Might you care to elaborate on the second bolded sentence. It's unclear (to me) what you mean: They buy books in restored labels on the cheap, crack them out than sell for big $ not disclosing restoration? 

Edited May 15, 2018 by NoMan

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 hours ago, NoMan said:

Good to know. Thank you for sharing. My experience with them has not been favorable either. Might you care to elaborate on the second bolded sentence. It's unclear (to me) what you mean: They buy books in restored labels on the cheap, crack them out than sell for big $ not disclosing restoration? 

No. Savvy slab buyers buy restored labels on the cheap, crack them out, then sell the now-raw books to HOS.

"Sold raw....to them."

That is my theory. I cannot prove it. But after being the victim of several of their "undisclosed resto" books...and watching them get tons of otherwise realllllly nice keys on a regular basis, while other stores in the area did not...I believe I have put two and two together.

The worst part is that Paul (the owner of HOS) was only willing to refund me the price I paid for my Avengers #1...despite the fact that it was now in a CGC slab with a Stan Lee sig on it.

In other words, he got $100+ in signing and grading fees for free.

Haven't been back since, and that was 2010. Spent maybe $10,000 on back issues, mostly $1 books, in 2007 alone. My business wasn't important to him, so...no mas. There are plenty of other dealers who will sell me unrestored books for a reasonable price.

[RockMyAmadeus]

6 hours ago, NoMan said:

My experience with them has not been favorable either.

I do wonder, after having spent tens of thousands of dollars there from 1999-2010, how things are now. Anything you'd care to share?

[NoMan]

2 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I do wonder, after having spent tens of thousands of dollars there from 1999-2010, how things are now. Anything you'd care to share?

Over graded over priced. The brilliant humid California after noon sun beeming through the store window and beating into the glass case holding key Books was a bad sign. I’ve been there 10 or 15 times from 2016 to about 6 months ago and don’t feel the need to return.  The owner was nice enough during my first visits (mind you I was a wide eyed adult excited to be back in the hobby again throwing money around at Common 70s DC horror type books over priced over graded) 

once I was more up to speed and returned and politely wanted to discuss grading and more cautious about spending 15$ for a VG House of Mystery common as dirt kinda book I became person-non-gratis.

sure there’s a girl or two that works there  that’s super cute in that sexy record store clerk kinda way but I’m past that. There are a lot a guys in their  20s that just kinda seem to hang out there as talk to the cute clerks. “She’s gotta comic book podcast you know” one of them told me.  

I bought a xmen 137 early on there for I don’t know 70$ or so. VG maybe. Some friend of the store  followed me out on Olive there and told me what a great deal I got. 

Stuff like that. Yeah I was stupid early on. I just jump into stuff. It’s how I learn best. I spent a lot of money early on getting up to speed  

still spend money but I don’t forget  

 

Edited May 16, 2018 by NoMan