10 years since the "crash"... so what caused it?

[valiantman]

Being a skeptic, my BS radar went off when in '91 Wizard has every Valiant book listed in their price guide for hundreds of dollars and WOW S**T, every other page in their rag was a Valiant ad!?! 2+2= scam.

Dealers too dumb, or greedy, to see the fake hype quadrupled their orders, and today the 5/ $1 bins are filled with that dreck.

My BS radar just went off, so if you can find Valiant 1991 books at 5/$1, I'll triple your money.

[Dukes40]

 

The crash happened because everyone and his brother, including a ton of folks who moved over from cards to comics right around then, ordered wayyyyyyyyy too much product under the delusion that there would be a back issue market for this stuff, failing to pay attention to the law of supply and demand. This incredible glut of product then pulled down stuff from the 80's that wasn't as massively overprinted because there was a perception problem. That perception problem carries over to all 90's books, when, in fact, some of the stuff from late '97 - '99 was produced in relatively tight print runs.

 

I always love the fact that the most successful comic issue in history (X-Men #1 ~ 7 million copies), is also one of the least valuable.

 

At least it's a great comic.

[Dukes40]

A beautiful summary.

 

To take it a step further...

Speculation is the cloud of illusion that makes us believe there's so much more interest now in comics. It's pumping up the numbers in ways that are only of temporary benefit to the publisher's. Just like 20 years ago.

 

The REAL numbers don't lie.

 

An independent creator, even using a publisher like Image will get tired of the process of creating a title, having it spike with the first issue because of speculation and then quickly drop into the 7-12,000 print run. The cost of doing it themselves, as well as the work involved in doing it themselves, for what little income they make will just drive them to other ways to earn a living.

 

Mike Allred probably makes more money doing one issue of Daredevil for Marvel than he does in 6 months of publishing his own character Madman (not to mention the financial responsibilities, paperwork, accounting, etc.) and really, are we a better hobby for that?

 

If our hobby was REALLY in a healthy mode it would be able to support BOTH types of books.

 

But Marvel and DC will continue to glut the market and push those books out of the way; speculation will continue to give the hobby a false sense of what's really going on, and sooner or later we'll be stuck with even less Brand OCD collectors propping up the BIG TWO just enough to stay in business.

 

Walking Dead is an anomaly. Fatale and Saga are the exception to the rule; and even with the star power involved with those books, will they really make it past 15-20 issues? Very little out there has.

Look at the work Valiant did to promote those books, and now with the 3rd issues coming out we already see it settling into the 15,000 print run range. Can they survive at that?

Don't we need new publishers like that?

 

Marvel and DC can continue to reboot and do anniversary's and crossovers, etc.; but what does a publisher like Valiant do? Reboot every three issues? The odds are against them, even with a rabid fan base. Heck, the odds are against Grant Morrison as one of most followed writer's in comics, and I'd bet anything 'Happy' won't ever make it to 15 issues.

 

Something has to change to bring more readers into this hobby. READERS who aren't hypnotized by characters from Marvel and DC and have been conditioned to follow that god awful mess of continuity that was long ago unworthy of support.

Right now we have the Brand OCD collectors, the speculators, and a small portion of readers looking, and hoping for better. But not enough to support it.

 

Something HAS to bring more people to this hobby. And it's NOT speculation. We've already seen how that works out. It's going to be a bad deal if we go through it again.

 

Thanks for the compliment (and to everyone else as well). I agree with the premises you are laying down here, but I do feel I need to add one point, and defend one as well.

 

The addition I would add, and what is VERY different this time (, though the outcome likely wont be), is that comics have moved from a singular sphere of influence(namely comic books) into a cross-media phenomenon (comic books, trades, digitals, tv shows, movies, merchandising for said tv/movie stuff).

The big two are *spoon*ing where they eat, yes. The variant nonsense and events are definitely there to push sales and maintain market dominance. But the constant reboots, and their overall marketing scheme, is FAR more interested in trying to bring the TV and MOVIE audiences to comics, than focused on milking the existing fan base.

Marvel makes FAR more money from its movies and related merchandise now, than they could possibly hope to make selling comic books. It's Billions versus Millions and its no contest. The size of that audience dwarfs the comic book readers. Marvel's dream is to unite them as one, and DC wants to get the Movies going so it can chase the same holy grail.

 

The spike in Creator owned comics is chasing the same Eldorado dream. Kirkman is the mold, and if you think those other guys are making their own comics and not dreaming of the royalties that could come from tv or movie rights, you are fooling yourself. I think it is the TV and Movie chasing that will keep the "bubble" going far long than many think possible. In fact, I think world economics/affairs, monetary policy, interest rates, etc, are for more likely to limit this market (and all others), before it out right collapses on its own.

 

 

 

The point of defense I would make, is of the reader/customer of the Big 2. I am one of those guys, and while its nice to add some diversity from Image, IDW, Dark Horse, etc, the big 2 are the big 2 for a reason.

Their characters arent accidents, they didnt get followers by being the next "hot" book whom speculators happened to end up enjoying. (little bit of an Image dig there). The characters of the Big 2 came to be popular by, in a way, the free market. The Big 2 have decades of creating new characters, and putting them out there. The ones people like, and ask for more of, they get more. We the comic readers, for decades, have helped shape and form these characters by our choices and demands.

 

To use your example, Daredevil vs Madman. Personally, it's no contest which I'd rather read about. He SHOULD be able to make more money making a Daredevil comic, because far far more people WANT a daredevil comic book. The big two take a ton of slack, and some of it rightly so. But they made comics what they are, with the characters decades of readers have supported. Without the Big 2 the medium wouldnt exist, and companies like Image could never have come to be.

 

Si to everything.

 

Was thinking the same, regarding the fact that it's much more acceptable to read a comic/trade since it's become more mainstream, is more present in TV and Movies, pop culture, etc.

 

And yes, I hate the whole your're with us or against us mentality when it comes to Marvel/DC and all the others.

 

I buy Marvel because I like the characters, continueing stories, and want to see what happens next. Some of the books are great, some are junky.

 

I buy Image, Dark Horse, Boom, Dynamite because they have interesting, new, and diverse genre's, concepts, and ideas for stories. Some are awesome, some don't pan out, or aren't done well.

 

I buy Avatar becuase I must be a psycho deep down.

[Dukes40]

the print runs were ridiculous in the 90's remember all those people that bought all those over printed valiant books and also spawn.. then those return of superman was a real bust!!!! the death of superman, I believe started the whole comic book craze in the 90s.. What started it in this era??

 

maybe Walking dead?

 

We sure do have a huge image following these days..

 

Walking Dead brought attention to Image, to the fact that the publisher had changed from "All Flash, No Substance", to "No Flash, All Substance", and to the fact that you can do a non-super hero book that is very well-written, and very popular.

 

This, in turn, brought more attention to non-superhero books, creator-owned books, etc.

 

As well, for the speculator market, it showed the value of small print-runs, little known characters, and hard to find comics.

 

For speculators, it's kind of shown, too, that it's easier to speculate and make money by doing research into the synopsis/premise of a new comic, and the creative team who's doing that comic, rather than by going in blind, and just picking #1's, whatever's the most popular, whatever's the most printed, etc.

An affect of this, then, is making the speculators more informed about they're product, and maybe even interested in it. Certainly moreso than in the early 90's.

I think it's a case of smarter, more informed speculation now.

 

It's kind of all snowballed from there.

 

PS. With myself, I'm a reader first, and a speculator 2nd. (my purchases are a 90%-10% split).

 

I speculate because I'm privy to "insider information", as someone who reads a lot of comics, looks at the previews, etc. My mentality is "well, this looks good, and it will probably go up in price, so why not pick up 4 or 5 extra". The most I'm investing is $20 or so on any issue, maybe $100 month or so.

 

Most issues like that, at the very least, you'll be able to sell for cover. Even at half-price, it's not a huge hit.

[Dukes40]

We're an entertainment source, that is stifled by two publishers, continuing to dumb down the content with rehashed superhero non-sense.

 

I find this comment interesting.

 

So, who's the audience they're selling to?

 

Kids? Teens? Pre-Teens? Univeristy grads? Graduate School grads? Adults with only highschool education? Adults with only grade 8 education?

 

Many comic readers I've encountered, they're not splitting the atom.

 

Most people who work at comic stores here, THAT's their job. Retail. Some are in university, others aren't, or won't be.

 

But then there are readers who are quite intelligent as well.

 

And the kid factor. I know Marvel and DC comics have shifted to be more of a teen and up medium, but do kids still read regular continuity books, and at what age? 10? 12? 8?

 

 

 

Many people I know are content with average "intelligence" entertainment, be it movies, tv, music, comics, etc.

 

One could pick apart Image et al. books, and knocking the "perceived" intelligence of the content. Some of them are legit, others aren't. Just depends on the critic, and their intelligence. Same with Marvel. Some of their books, I think "wow, this is deep/innovative/smart", and others I think "that was stupid, awful, dumb, mindless".

 

You could be a PhD, or a high-school drop out. I don't know. What's smart to you could be way over my head, or could seem like moronic drivel to me. I have no clue. It all depends on the reader.

 

And that's the thing, I don't know who Marvel is targetting, to be honest. The masses/mainstream? The nerd? The ACTUALLY intelligent person? Kids? All of the above? None of the above?

 

 

[Dukes40]

We're an entertainment source, that is stifled by two publishers, continuing to dumb down the content with rehashed superhero non-sense. It's NOT in our best interest.

-----------

 

Perhaps my shop(s) in NYC are a bit different, but the new comic racks are 30-35% Marvel, 25-30% DC and 30-35% "other" around here...dunno if 30-35% "other" reflects the overall market (probably not as I suspect a lot of smaller shops avoid carrying so much of the "other" outside of Spawn, WD, etc.)

 

One factor in carrying the "other", is actually looking at the previews. There is a mess LOAD of titles in there!

 

I think for most stores, to actually go through everything and read the synopsis, read up on the what the comic is like, etc would be SO time consuming, it's just not possible. Especially in small to medium stores, were there's no extra employees/employ time to be devoted to research on smaller titles.

 

So, they stick to the 5 or 10 bigger "others", plus some popular creators doing things outside of those 5-10.

 

I don't think it's necessarily that they wouldn't, because they CAN just order 2 issues of something if they want. It's just there's so much to choose from, and it's hard to go through, let alone know what customers will want (they may find something interesting, but they still have to be able to sell it).

[Dukes40]

I think I quit in the early 1990's when the writing became bland and tons of issues came out. I didn't buy the Image hype, but the flood of titles was overwhelming. today, it is overwhelming but I but what I like.

 

I think I'm the annomaly here. I got out because I was getting older/almost in high school, and I had other things on my mind, comics weren't really cool at that age and as a teenager, and I had limited money.

 

I hit university, and then was like "WAIT A MINUTE, I have money now. I can by ALL of the Age of Apocalypse, and not just the #1's".

[Dukes40]

Do you honestly think things are going to go *POP*? ... or just gradually slow down and margins get tighter?

 

 

Somewhat of a plateu with valleys and peaks.

 

I'm honestly astonished by how fast info on issues is deceminated, prices increase, and then decrease. It's astounding!

 

I think for the ULTRA hot books that end up crashing quickly, the prices move too fast to have any large-scale effect.

 

And for the hot books that stay hot longer, the fact that they are hot for a longer period bolsters their overall plateau price, so that if they do come down in price, it isn't a big drop, since they've proven themselves as consistent over the long run and something that people actually want to read and/or collect.

 

And the fact that print runs are low, this limits the number of people who can get burned by any one issue.

 

At the same time, it's almost like diversifying your stocks.

 

i.e. 10 copies of Saga, Nowhere Men, Bedlam, Batman, Avengers, etc.

 

Vs 50 copies of Spawn.

 

If one series tanks, you still have four others to count on.

 

 

[Dukes40]

Now Sixth Gun is a much closer example of the 90s type of bubble, and may also be creating a bit of fear/caution in people too.

 

 

Not at all.

 

Yes, it got huge, then burst, but for much different reasons, and on a much more miniscule scale.

 

 

[Dukes40]

Having been around back then I called it "the baseball card mentality" with hologram covers, and limited edition / false rarities, almost like today's variant covers with he 1:100 / 1:200 ratio, a fake demand for something deliberately created to be "rare".

For those who may remember, the 1st of the special embossed covers was Silver Surfer #50, and it was something neat and different at the time, but with no price hike. But the ones that followed had a higher cover price and were hyped up as "special holo cover, embossed cover, 3D cover" etc.

You had people buying comic books by the buttload who A) didn't read comics, and B) were trying to make a fast buck by buying X-amount of junk product they knew nothing about.

 

Sadly, I see some of the same greed from shops today as existed in the Valiant / Image early 90's with stores jacking up the price on new books after a week. Brave New Worlds in particular. When Nowhere Men started to peak, they raised the price of issue 3 from cover price to $10, and now they're stuck with a lot of copies that nobody wants at triple cover.

Also, they're a Ghost Variant chain store and NONE of them are ever available at cover price, unlike the Phantom Variant shops in the area.

 

I'd like to end with this" There's only one Walking Dead, there will never be another. No comic book that gets picked up for a movie or TV show will make you a millionaire. But we sell books to people who think it will and they're happy thinking that so... yay capitalism

 

1-I think with the variants, there can be a difference. It depends on if it is worth having because it is a really cool cover, great art, etc. vs because it is rare.

 

Some variants I HAVE to have because they're just awesome (i.e. I love homage covers and theme covers). Others, I don't care HOW rare they are. If they suck, then I'm not buying them, or only at a cheap price to pay (i.e. those awful SKETCH variants).

 

2-Hate the greed with shops as well. Don't tell me you're out of Manhattan Projects #1, then have five on the wall a week after, priced at $15 each.

 

3-I've heard this multiple times in this thread, and on the boards, about "only one" Walking Dead. There can be another, nothing is stopping it from happening.

 

BUT, yes, every comic Image puts out is not going to turn into it.

[Dukes40]

Avengers #5 1:75 Thor variant. 'Nuff said.

 

You're saying it's bad or good?

 

My opinion: awful.

[Taco]

Avengers #5 1:75 Thor variant. 'Nuff said.

 

You're saying it's bad or good?

 

My opinion: awful.

 

It was in reply to something you said, but I didn't quote and you posted a bunch between quickly.

 

I love the cover.

 

I might also be biased because I stocked up on them knowing it is the first appearance of the Ultron War.

[valiantman]

I might also be biased because I stocked up on them knowing it is the first appearance of the Ultron War.

Can you name another first appearance of a "war" that has any extra value versus books around it?

Feel free to go back to comics from 1935, if necessary.

[Dukes40]

Avengers #5 1:75 Thor variant. 'Nuff said.

 

You're saying it's bad or good?

 

My opinion: awful.

 

It was in reply to something you said, but I didn't quote and you posted a bunch between quickly.

 

I love the cover.

 

I might also be biased because I stocked up on them knowing it is the first appearance of the Ultron War.

 

I mean, the drawing is fine. To me, though, it's just Thor on the cover. Nothing imaginative. It's done by the interior artist, so there's no novelty in getting a different art style. Not that it's bad, but I wouldn't pay a premium for it.

 

Now the Marvel 50th Homage covers, Wolverine Art Covers, Iron Man by Design, and the Djurdjevic X-Men and Wolverine linking covers......

 

 

 

[Dukes40]

I might also be biased because I stocked up on them knowing it is the first appearance of the Ultron War.

Can you name another first appearance of a "war" that has any extra value versus books around it?

Feel free to go back to comics from 1935, if necessary.

 

Hahahha. I kind of wondered that myself.

 

HAHAHAHHAAA.

 

Im actually laughing about this comment.

 

 

 

[ChrisInBaltimore]

This is probably a good thread to necro.

 

DC is bringing out 3D covers and losing money in the process.

 

I feel a comic bubble about to burst again. I'm just waiting on a new die cut cover.

 

Weren't the Batman Death in the Family stories die cut?