10 years since the "crash"... so what caused it?

[ThoseBackPages]

"That perception problem carries over to all 90's books, when, in fact, some of the stuff from late '97 - '99 was produced in relatively tight print runs."

 

THIS!

 

ive you've got time to spare, take a look at the prices that the true hard to find late 90's Michael Jordan inserts are getting on eBay. Some of them are topping five figures

[Pike's Comics]

[

 

What Marvel, DC, Image (and Valiant too, but I don't think they had the money once things went bad) should have done was some sort of "glut buster" program...allowing dealers to send covers of excess inventory back (or the top half of the front cover) with a promise to recycle the coverless copies in exhange for limited variant editions of various books.

 

+1

[the blob]

the problem was that none of these entities cared about the collector market (or at least one muckity muck at DC told me that)..which was incredibly short sighted because that back issue market is what helped support price increases during this period. plus, it's harder to sell new issues at $1.50 - $2.50 a pop when the shop has dozens of long boxes of 5/$1 back issues. some people cut back their new issue buying and then things get worse and worse. the comic companies were too pig headed to see this. if they had taken back 50-75% of this glut there wouldn't have been as much of a problem and they could have done so relatively inexpensively with vouchers for future various retailer gold and silver editions and so on (so as not to flood the limited edition market all at once). yes, turok 1 would still be worthless...

 

anyway, what's done is done. they could probably still do this, but now that variants are such a big piece of their business model (which was not the case in 1994 or so), sucking up this glut with more variants would cause even more problems.

[dupont2005]

I understand them not caring about the back issue market. Every cent spent tracking down back issues is a cent not spent on their new product. Also, if back issues are undesirable maybe their TPB's will have more market share. It makes sense. Back in the 80's/early 90's the guide values of TPB's was nothing, because they were reprints. And at that time the sales of TPB's was basically nothing as well, because nobody wanted a reprint. The only people that would be helped with a program like that is dealers. The publishers don't really care and the average modern comic reader probably doesn't even have longboxes full of 90's drek to turn in to score that sweet variant. They'll have to buy one off the dealer for significantly more than the value of the drek he recycled to get it.

[valiantman]

I saw this topic on the board with my name as the author and thought... "I didn't start that topic!"

 

Yes, I did.

 

8-and-a-half years ago.

[dupont2005]

I saw this topic on the board with my name as the author and thought... "I didn't start that topic!"

 

Yes, I did.

 

8-and-a-half years ago.

When I read the original post I thought "The crash happened much more than ten years ago..."

 

Luckily I decided to read the date it was posted

[B3AST]

I saw this topic on the board with my name as the author and thought... "I didn't start that topic!"

 

Yes, I did.

 

8-and-a-half years ago.

When I read the original post I thought "The crash happened much more than ten years ago..."

 

Luckily I decided to read the date it was posted

 

 

Yep this thread is the Walking Dead, major necro

 

I owned a store in the earlier 90s you don't want to get me started on the crash unless it's over some sort of beverage.

 

Admit I didn't read all this eight year old thread. Did anyone mention the whole distributor Heroes, Capital, Diamond debacle??

 

 

[Garf]

I saw this topic on the board with my name as the author and thought... "I didn't start that topic!"

 

Yes, I did.

 

8-and-a-half years ago.

When I read the original post I thought "The crash happened much more than ten years ago..."

 

Luckily I decided to read the date it was posted

 

 

Yep this thread is the Walking Dead, major necro

 

I owned a store in the earlier 90s you don't want to get me started on the crash unless it's over some sort of beverage.

 

Admit I didn't read all this eight year old thread. Did anyone mention the whole distributor Heroes, Capital, Diamond debacle??

 

 

...go on

 

I would offer a beverage but it would be a bit late.

 

The late 80's - early 90's were a much simpler comic collecting time for me. I never really caught wind of much of it. A lot of my batman/DC issues from that era are in a couple of long boxes with no bags/boards, pretty much in the same state I left them in when I was reading / re-reading through them as a teenager. Speculation never really crossed my mind.

[Boozad]

I saw this topic on the board with my name as the author and thought... "I didn't start that topic!"

 

Yes, I did.

 

8-and-a-half years ago.

When I read the original post I thought "The crash happened much more than ten years ago..."

 

Luckily I decided to read the date it was posted

 

 

Yep this thread is the Walking Dead, major necro

 

I owned a store in the earlier 90s you don't want to get me started on the crash unless it's over some sort of beverage.

 

Admit I didn't read all this eight year old thread. Did anyone mention the whole distributor Heroes, Capital, Diamond debacle??

 

 

...go on

 

I would offer a beverage but it would be a bit late.

 

The late 80's - early 90's were a much simpler comic collecting time for me. I never really caught wind of much of it. A lot of my batman/DC issues from that era are in a couple of long boxes with no bags/boards, pretty much in the same state I left them in when I was reading / re-reading through them as a teenager. Speculation never really crossed my mind.

 

Buying Batman in the 90s was a magical time for me, I seriously wish I could go back to then.

[500Club]

Admit I didn't read all this eight year old thread. Did anyone mention the whole distributor Heroes, Capital, Diamond debacle??

 

THAT was a hugely underestimated factor in the decline of the market in the 90s.

[the blob]

"I understand them not caring about the back issue market. Every cent spent tracking down back issues is a cent not spent on their new product. Also, if back issues are undesirable maybe their TPB's will have more market share. It makes sense."

 

Except that their massive sales in 1990-1993 (and let's face it, probably 1977 - 1989 as well) were predicated on there being a viable back issue market, as were price increases (to a certain extent).

 

Back issues not being worth anything hardly makes TPBs more desireable. Why spend $14.95 on a TPB compilation of the WCP Weapon X storyline when you can fish all the issues out of a 50 cent box for a fraction of the cost? Ditto for soooooooooooo many books out there. I know some people do it because it's easier, but those aren't the folks who would be buying the back issues individually at $4 a pop of whatever they used to sell for at the height of the market anyway.

 

The back issue market for non-"hot" books being in the krapper hurts new book sales. I hardly buy anything anymore because I figure it is likely to eventually be in the dollar box 90% of the time a few months later. I can live without the 10% of the books that don't wind up in there. I think a lot of people are acting the same way.

[dupont2005]

Why spend $14.95 on a TPB compilation of the WCP Weapon X storyline when you can fish all the issues out of a 50 cent box for a fraction of the cost?

Because it's a new market, believe it or not. It's a bookstore and Amazon market. People who wouldn't even know where to look or how to track down a crossover series spanning multiple titles. Where the LCS is even located. Where to jump on or off on a long running series. The TPB presents them a complete story as easy as that. You're right, it's not someone who would have been buying back issues for $4. It's someone who doesn't buy back issues at all. They consider the trade a new comic, even if it's a trade of Watchmen or the Dark Phoenix Saga. Not to mention it just plain looks better on the shelf. With the back issue market being what it is I think less people will be hung up about "It has to be a first print!" and just choose convenience and shelf eye appeal. And not everyone knows how to get them cheap. I deal with people like that all the time online. They aren't savvy shoppers, they aren't on eBay, they aren't in these forums. They're buying from Milehigh or the LCS for easily five times going rate per issue. At that price point Amazon's huge discounts is looking good. You don't have to be internet savvy to score those deals.

[DeliBebek]

I'm thankful someone brought this thread back to life. There are some good perspectives and explanations about why that period was considered to be a crash. Are there any real articles about the "crash" or is it all anecdotal recollections?

[500Club]

The book 'Comic Wars' details the business of Marvel Comics in the early 90's.

[awakeintheashes]

Like many of you guys I was an avid reader and collector before the crash and hung around a little while after. I often thought of it as a bad breakup after a long and great relationship.

 

A few years ago I started "dating" comics again, and because all the great books coming out and catching up on those I've missed, I am back in a relationship with comics.

 

After reading some other boards, one thing that I've noticed is that it appears as if more and more fed up card/sports collectors are pouring into our hobby. Is this cause for concern? Will publishers begin to fill the market with and tons of gimmicky covers to cater to this influx of new readers"?

 

Finally, since there is nothing stopping them with coming into the hobby, should those of us who also flip these books (myself included) just see them as a new and naive customer base, or is that just contributing to another crash and burn?

[Lebowski]

Will publishers begin to fill the market with and tons of gimmicky covers to cater to this influx of new readers"?

 

What do you mean, "begin?"

[awakeintheashes]

Will publishers begin to fill the market with and tons of gimmicky covers to cater to this influx of new readers"?

 

What do you mean, "begin?"

 

Good point.

[CBT]

Finally, since there is nothing stopping them with coming into the hobby, should those of us who also flip these books (myself included) just see them as a new and naive customer base, or is that just contributing to another crash and burn?

 

I think any naive people, regardless of where they come from, only get burned once or twice before they figure it out. All customers should be viewed as a resource. Any of them that are getting milked due to ignorance are future lost sales.

 

Lastly on "Flipping". Forget comics all together, and look at what flipping really is. Flipping is a form of arbitrage, finding an inefficiency in a market, and taking advantage of it to make money. In this case, buying comics cheap from a source (either via better knowledge ahead of time, or access to things other people dont know about/dont have), and then selling them to the broader market as a whole (Ebay/etc).

 

These types of trades are great for early adopters, but once people see them making money, they say "i can do that too". The number of people doing it increases, which dilutes the profit and margins of all. Eventually these arbitrage trades become so crowded that no one can make money, and the inefficiency in the market is removed.

 

The market originators (Image, etc) also try to increase their profit margins by catering to, or even creating, these inefficiencies. (Exclusives, limited print run variants, second printings instead of increasing the first, etc).

 

In more plain english you can summarize it thus. If every single person buying comics, is flipping them, then there is no end point left to actually buy and keep the books. The closer you get to that point, the more likely the bubble will burst.

 

Another great example, look at the board members who offer 9.8s subscriptions services. If one wants to acquire a 9.8 of every issue of a series, the market has no way of efficiently delivering it to them (requires many different steps and a high cost). These members recognized that fact, and create a means to deliver the service.

 

If it were easy to do, and hundreds of people were doing it. The price would fall to the point where no money was being made, and they would stop offering the service (in addition to obliterating the value of 9.8s).

 

Same thing for comics as a whole, or any market. Eventually too many people get in on a trade, and it collapses.

 

 

[awakeintheashes]

Well said. I especially agree with your first point. I've witnessed some attempts to take advantage of these newer collectors and it left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Finally, since there is nothing stopping them with coming into the hobby, should those of us who also flip these books (myself included) just see them as a new and naive customer base, or is that just contributing to another crash and burn?

 

I think any naive people, regardless of where they come from, only get burned once or twice before they figure it out. All customers should be viewed as a resource. Any of them that are getting milked due to ignorance are future lost sales.

 

Lastly on "Flipping". Forget comics all together, and look at what flipping really is. Flipping is a form of arbitrage, finding an inefficiency in a market, and taking advantage of it to make money. In this case, buying comics cheap from a source (either via better knowledge ahead of time, or access to things other people dont know about/dont have), and then selling them to the broader market as a whole (Ebay/etc).

 

These types of trades are great for early adopters, but once people see them making money, they say "i can do that too". The number of people doing it increases, which dilutes the profit and margins of all. Eventually these arbitrage trades become so crowded that no one can make money, and the inefficiency in the market is removed.

 

The market originators (Image, etc) also try to increase their profit margins by catering to, or even creating, these inefficiencies. (Exclusives, limited print run variants, second printings instead of increasing the first, etc).

 

In more plain english you can summarize it thus. If every single person buying comics, is flipping them, then there is no end point left to actually buy and keep the books. The closer you get to that point, the more likely the bubble will burst.

 

Another great example, look at the board members who offer 9.8s subscriptions services. If one wants to acquire a 9.8 of every issue of a series, the market has no way of efficiently delivering it to them (requires many different steps and a high cost). These members recognized that fact, and create a means to deliver the service.

 

If it were easy to do, and hundreds of people were doing it. The price would fall to the point where no money was being made, and they would stop offering the service (in addition to obliterating the value of 9.8s).

 

Same thing for comics as a whole, or any market. Eventually too many people get in on a trade, and it collapses.