Clean and Press Bother Anyone?

[Red Hook]

This pressing phenomenon is something that seems to be peculiar to Golden Age books, because those books have a thicker layer of ink that does not allow color breaks as easily. A silver age book that has spine stress almost always has color loss, which cannot be fixed with simple pressing.

 

BTW, what was that again?

[AtomicPaul-migration]

The same thing happened in coins, yet that hobby didn't die

 

Not so fast. I think that some of the collectors here should open a serious cross-dialog with this Forum's Coin Community on this subject!! I collected coins (high grade Silver Dollars and some low denomination Gold coins) in the 1980s, first raw, then slabbed when the grading services started up about ca. 1984. The issues of uncertainty and progressive history concerning comics and grading services and their place and reaction in the market are almost an exact replay of the coin hobbies first 3 years post the introduction of grading services. The dialog between forum members is an exact transcript of the discussions that coin hobbyists used to have concerning these issues. This is a replay. Deja-Vu. The comic market is following the same path as the coin market in the 1980s right before the big stall!

Coincidentally, many of the coin dealers imbedded in the coin controversies of the 1980s are now the comic hobby's top BSD's.

And what happened in coins in the 1980's to cause a crash and approx. 10 years of darkness? The same things being noticed and discussed on the comic forums now. The evidence of possible impropriety. Coins switching grade, artificial toning, resubmissions after obvious restoration, slabbed fake coins, dealers owning their own grading service and conflicts of interest, lawsuits, arrests, and bad press on all of the mentioned.

I hate to say this but it all seems to be a repeat of what has happened before with many of the same players involved to boot. Maybe getting some input from some of the long-time coin hobbyists would be helpful for gaining some inciteful opinions.

[Red Hook]

I am all ears! Great Post!

[DiceX]

The same thing happened in coins, yet that hobby didn't die

 

Not so fast. I think that some of the collectors here should open a serious cross-dialog with this Forum's Coin Community on this subject!! I collected coins (high grade Silver Dollars and some low denomination Gold coins) in the 1980s, first raw, then slabbed when the grading services started up about ca. 1984. The issues of uncertainty and progressive history concerning comics and grading services and their place and reaction in the market are almost an exact replay of the coin hobbies first 3 years post the introduction of grading services. The dialog between forum members is an exact transcript of the discussions that coin hobbyists used to have concerning these issues. This is a replay. Deja-Vu. The comic market is following the same path as the coin market in the 1980s right before the big stall!

Coincidentally, many of the coin dealers imbedded in the coin controversies of the 1980s are now the comic hobby's top BSD's.

And what happened in coins in the 1980's to cause a crash and approx. 10 years of darkness? The same things being noticed and discussed on the comic forums now. The evidence of possible impropriety. Coins switching grade, artificial toning, resubmissions after obvious restoration, slabbed fake coins, dealers owning their own grading service and conflicts of interest, lawsuits, arrests, and bad press on all of the mentioned.

I hate to say this but it all seems to be a repeat of what has happened before with many of the same players involved to boot. Maybe getting some input from some of the long-time coin hobbyists would be helpful for gaining some inciteful opinions.

 

So give us a glimmer of hope and tell us that you could buy coins for a fraction of what they were once worth before the bottom dropped out.

 

I'm so ready for the crash to happen, I can hardly stand the suspense.

Hopefully it will run the specs out for another 10 years.

[joe_collector]

I'm so ready for the crash to happen, I can hardly stand the suspense.

 

That's what they all say, but it's not that easy. Once the heat is off a "hot collectible", the mass exodus starts and it's no longer "cool" to collect comics, much like the mid-90's. The forums turn into a ghost town (like sportscards), no one is ooohing and aaahing over your latest purchase, and suddenly that Plasma TV screen looks like a better buy than the "falling like a rock" CGC book...

 

You've got to have been there to realize how much BS, 99% of this "I'll buy tons when values fall by half" talk really is. You may be in the 1%, but I'll believe it when I see it.

[Rip]

Well, I don't know if anyone is interested but I thought I'd post a few pgs on resto. Its not in depth and its an old article. But never the less I though some people might find some aspects interesting.

[Rip]

more...

[sterlingcomics]

Well, I don't know if anyone is interested but I thought I'd post a few pgs on resto. Its not in depth and its an old article. But never the less I though some people might find some aspects interesting.

 

Bring it on!

[Rip]

last...I have more articles, I'll see if I can find em. BTW does anyone else have any articles on resto?

[FFB]

OK, so I had forgotten about the Green River Daredevils. Sue me.

 

Ha ha, get it? "Sue me." I slay me.

 

This pressing phenomenon is something that seems to be peculiar to Golden Age books, because those books have a thicker layer of ink that does not allow color breaks as easily. A silver age book that has spine stress almost always has color loss, which cannot be fixed with simple pressing.

 

BTW, what was that again?

[Rip]

deacidification...

[Rip]

pt2

[DiceX]

You've got to have been there to realize how much BS, 99% of this "I'll buy tons when values fall by half" talk really is. You may be in the 1%, but I'll believe it when I see it.

 

I'll be here.

I stopped collecting for several years right before the '90's crash.

The reason was that all the comic shops closed and I had no way to buy books.

 

Now that I have eBay, I'll hopefully have an endless supply of books through the crash.

When the price is cheap, that makes it much more fun to me.

 

I don't care if they are cool to other people or not.

I don't know a single person in real life that thinks they are cool now.

It's not going to matter to me when you *online people* move on to speculating on the return of Pokemon.

[LordRahl]

Are you sure there was any work done on that book to bump it to a 9.6? There are plenty of books that have been resubbed for higher grades without having to have any work done to them first. The difference between a 9.4 and 9.6 isn't big enough to say with certainty that it needed any work for the bump in grade to happen. Especially if it was a strong 9.4 to begin with.

[awe4one]

Unfair. I suspect I've been several times more ACTIVE in trying to find ways to detect this kind of work than anyone posting in this thread, but every angle I've tried so far has led me to the probability that we're just going to have to live with it.

 

I can't detect it either so what's your point? But then again that's what we have CGC for and you better believe that I expect them to detect it, or find a way.

 

It's the same way in other hobbies, and all the current experts think it's undetectable. In coins, it has passed controversy and simply become a part of the hobby. Coinees teach each other how to clean safely, and I figure we'll end up doing the same.

 

I could care less about other hobbies but do care about comics. And I find the current situation of "clean and press" very discouraging. CGC has the means to check on books they've already slabbed but choose not to pursue it and let all these comics slip by with higher grades. I find it irreprehensible for a grading company to know of the problem but decides to simply ignore it. Especially since they could change their procedures to confront the problem. I'll lay you money that if CGC kicked back a couple of these examples then dealers would be more selective on what they resubmit. Wouldn't completely solve the problem but would be a good start.

 

To imply that we "live with it" and actually try to find ways to duplicate the procedure smacks of hypocracy. I can not believe that the suggestion was even made. Might as well invite Hammer back and let him show everyone how it's done. Greed does weird things to people apparently.....

 

Jim

[goldust40]

Rip, which book is the one in the attachments? It'd be important to own this book simply as a means of spotting resto techniques, and their long term effects.

[drbanner]

OK, so I had forgotten about the Green River Daredevils. Sue me.

 

Ha ha, get it? "Sue me." I slay me.

 

This pressing phenomenon is something that seems to be peculiar to Golden Age books, because those books have a thicker layer of ink that does not allow color breaks as easily. A silver age book that has spine stress almost always has color loss, which cannot be fixed with simple pressing.

 

BTW, what was that again?

 

It's not that it doesn't happen on SA and BA, but "non-color breaking" creases are a whole lot more prominent on golden age books than the thin-covered SA and newer books, making them more amenable to improvement via pressing.

 

Were these DD's definitely pressed, or just cleaned and resubbed? I don't recall any SA or newer books that had the tell-tale "realigned spine" that indicated they had been pressed (like all those GA heritage resubs that have been pointed out).

[goldust40]

I find it reprehensible for a grading company to know of the problem but decides to simply ignore it.

 

And therein lies the core of the matter. As CGC has never disclosed their grading criteria, by extension many "enhancement" techniques may be permissible due to this loophole (and their interpretation of resto, which is part of the grading process).

 

An excellent, and depressing thread - I've noticed a lot of resignation here.

 

A dialogue with the coinees would be interesting and important - especially re that line about how the BSDs that were in that hobby are now in ours. He who forgets the past.......

[drbanner]

last...I have more articles, I'll see if I can find em. BTW does anyone else have any articles on resto?

 

Great stuff Rip, I don't believe those had been posted before!!

[comicwiz]

After discussing the moral and ethical scenarios with my friend again we came to several conclusions. We realized that we were jealous that this auction dealer was able to do this on such a grand scale. It was our jealousy that caused us to be upset about this new situation. We were pissed off that we could not duplicate this dealers success. It must be nice to be in a position where you can turn a 2K book into a 5K book, and you only have to spend $300 to do it!

 

Even if a collector/dealer pays topped out price for a book in 9.2 or 9.4 grade, the allure in doing so is to eke out the .2 or .4 grade increase. In so doing, the collectors stands to profit significantly, as you have pointed out in your own example.

 

The problem is that as margins start to shrink on softened CGC sales, in an attempt to recoup lost revenue, the shrewd practice of performing press jobs without spending the professional pressing fee, will mean that more books with bad press jobs will hit the market. In fact, I would argue that at a much grander scale than books which have been pressed professionally. This is disconcerting on many levels, but mostly because such actions are motivated primarily on monetarist principles. It is remotely worth noting that just because CGC can't detect a bad press job now, this doesn't mean they (or another 3rd-party grading, or professional restoration person) won't be able to in the near future. And if this be the case, could you see an amateur or BAD press jobs recieving the same stigma as amateur resto work, or any resto work on a comic, for that matter? And if my opinion holds true about each one of owning at least one book which has had a bad press job performed on it, the question would be, could we live with that kind of revolting development in future comic grading?