Noob depressed over OA trading attempts

[thethedew]

Hello all-

 

I've been building a little backlog of pieces that I'd expected to use for trades, only to have them shot down one-by-one.

 

To be honest, one of the more modest attempts did succeed. Another is being mulled over.

 

But the more ambitious ones have not worked out at all, even though thoughtful and expensive attempts to find tradestuff were undertaken. (One attempt was with a dealer whose initials just might be SD, so maybe I should've known better on that one.)

 

I may be a noob on this board but I've owned OA for years; you guys make it sound like trades happen all the time. My limited experience doesn't bear that out, and I suspect part of the problem might be my limited collecting focus; but assembling an inventory of OA for mere trade purposes sounds like a bummer to me. That's potentially a bunch of art that someone else loves more than I do.

 

I'm feeling surprisingly emotional about this. I think I'm going to go have a drink.

 

Andrew

[Brian Peck]

Trading is a tricky thing. You have to have stuff others want that you don't mind giving up. I do some trading this year is the most trading I have done. ALot of times trading can be hit or miss with the initial transaction. Most times good trades can take a while. I had one take 5 years.

[tth2]

Without knowing what`s in the inventory that you`ve built up for trade, it`s hard to draw any conclusions from your lack of success. If they`re all a bunch of Frank Robbins Captain America and Invaders pieces, then your lack of success is understandable. If they`re all Ditko Spiderman splashes and Kirby FF covers, then your lack of success would be puzzling (and maybe concerning).

[Bronty]

I find it boils down to this: both guys usually want the same end of the trade. Very few deals will have two pieces of exactly similar value/desirability. So surprise surprise both guys end up wanting the same piece. Its not specific to art its just the way it goes when you have people trying to trade items where the values and/or desirability and/or liquidity don't quite match up).

 

trading can be really frustrating. sometimes it can make sense and leave both parties happy but often, if both parties are of equal experience level, trying it ends up just being a big waste of time. if the parties AREN'T of equal experience level / knowledge, well you can probably guess how that plays out. One person gets suckered and it isn't the experienced guy.

 

Cash makes for easier transactions. (That's why our jobs don't pay us in milk and cheese!). Where trading has a place IMO is when you don't have the money and you want to offer some value but you don't have it liquid. But to spend liquid money on trade bait... to me that's backwards, I'm sorry to have to say. However if you spent that money on good material it should be easy enough to get your money back with some time.

[mrpunch0]

I've only ever had one trade work out.

 

It was giving up something I didn't want for two things the other guy didn't want.

 

Obviously, I got the better end of that deal. ;-)

[Mephisto]

I'm not too big into trading. Traded once with a dealer. No problems there as I gave more than what the piece I picked up was worth. A few of the pieces I wanted to let go as I realized I would never frame them and decided what was the point of having them and the biggest piece I traded was expendable due to having a comparable piece. I didn't have the cash at the time, so it worked out well.

There has only been one time I have ever been offered something I was interested in by a private collector. Every other time it has been things I have 0% interest in, and I don't even have it on my want list or anything remotely similar to it in my gallery.

[batman_fan]

I'm not too big into trading. Traded once with a dealer. No problems there as I gave more than what the piece I picked up was worth. A few of the pieces I wanted to let go as I realized I would never frame them and decided what was the point of having them and the biggest piece I traded was expendable due to having a comparable piece. I didn't have the cash at the time, so it worked out well.

There has only been one time I have ever been offered something I was interested in by a private collector. Every other time it has been things I have 0% interest in, and I don't even have it on my want list or anything remotely similar to it in my gallery.

 

I have never done a trade deal but I have had a few trade offers, none for anything I was interested in ...

[mtlevy]

I have completed several successful (both/all parties happy) trades...but given how long I have been in the hobby not so many overall...

[comiconxion]

I have done many trade deals, but primarily with dealers and not other collectors (although there are a few collectors out there who I have done deals with over the years - Hari, you're included in that). I've completed large successful deals with Mike Burkey, Conrad Eschenberg, Anthony Snyder and the Donnelly's as well. There can be value for a dealer in trading; 1) They can get new stock and trade stock that they may have had for awhile; 2) They can trade art from artist they may have a lot of for one they are not as well stocked on or for art they have potential customers for; 3) They may be able to get some cash out of the deal if it's part cash/part trade; and 4) They may earn some good will with a customer, thus building the relationship with that person.

 

Keep in mind that when trading with a dealer, you usually have to give them a little advantage in that 1) they have to make money off the deal (as this is their livelihood) and 2) they are typically taking a larger number of items for a smaller amount of items. Some of the deals I have done have been close to even trades in my mind, but in some cases, there's been a little advantage on their part. In the end, just try to be fair.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that it sometimes takes an investment in time to do a large trade deal. In some case, I've carved out two days at a national show to structure a deal. Some people wouldn't do that and would give up. But perseverance can pay off and lead to a successful trade.

 

Finally, as mentioned earlier, you need to have trade items that other people want. Adams X-Men, Kirby FF, Wrightson Swamp Thing, Miller Dark Knight... you'll always find people willing to trade for them. If you're trying to trade $100-200 pages individually, you may not have luck with that. I've had more luck bundling all those pages into a larger deal and trading 50-100 less expensive pages for one page I can appreciate. In that situation, you may only get a fraction of what you perceive the retail value to be, but you have to evaluate which you'd rather have and give the other person an advantage for being willing to take a lot of less expensive items which would take longer to sell if you were to try and sell them individually.

 

Anyway, my 2 cents.

[AKA Rick]

It's like Fantasy Football... the value in trades are all in the needs and personal value perception. Typically for me, and the pieces I own, I don't accept cash transaction offers, not because I don't need the cash (everyone can use money!), it's because the value of the artwork, to me is probably higher than the actual market value, so what it ends up taking is an offer for another piece of artwork which I treasure and value personally higher than the piece I have that's wanted, in an exchange. Although I've done cash or part cash/part trade deals in the past, there's nothing more fun than doing a trade with the right person. You might want to post what you're offering and what you're looking for in exchange to let people know what's available from your collection and see what offers you get.

[heartened]

I have done many trade deals, but primarily with dealers and not other collectors (although there are a few collectors out there who I have done deals with over the years - Hari, you're included in that). I've completed large successful deals with Mike Burkey, Conrad Eschenberg, Anthony Snyder and the Donnelly's as well. There can be value for a dealer in trading; 1) They can get new stock and trade stock that they may have had for awhile; 2) They can trade art from artist they may have a lot of for one they are not as well stocked on or for art they have potential customers for; 3) They may be able to get some cash out of the deal if it's part cash/part trade; and 4) They may earn some good will with a customer, thus building the relationship with that person.

 

Keep in mind that when trading with a dealer, you usually have to give them a little advantage in that 1) they have to make money off the deal (as this is their livelihood) and 2) they are typically taking a larger number of items for a smaller amount of items. Some of the deals I have done have been close to even trades in my mind, but in some cases, there's been a little advantage on their part. In the end, just try to be fair.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that it sometimes takes an investment in time to do a large trade deal. In some case, I've carved out two days at a national show to structure a deal. Some people wouldn't do that and would give up. But perseverance can pay off and lead to a successful trade.

 

Finally, as mentioned earlier, you need to have trade items that other people want. Adams X-Men, Kirby FF, Wrightson Swamp Thing, Miller Dark Knight... you'll always find people willing to trade for them. If you're trying to trade $100-200 pages individually, you may not have luck with that. I've had more luck bundling all those pages into a larger deal and trading 50-100 less expensive pages for one page I can appreciate. In that situation, you may only get a fraction of what you perceive the retail value to be, but you have to evaluate which you'd rather have and give the other person an advantage for being willing to take a lot of less expensive items which would take longer to sell if you were to try and sell them individually.

 

Anyway, my 2 cents.

 

Excellent advice Chuck! Trades are difficult for both parties, especially when values in this hobby are always somewhat subjective. For the most part I don't like doing trades because it takes significant time and energy, and is often very frustrating. I have little patience for what it takes to get a good trade done, but kudos to some of you out there who are really great at it. Some even are able to hunt down specific items to make a trade work, with the caveat that there is some risk involved in that maneuver. But, it certainly can work. The problem is that it doesn't always work, and you can certainly get caught holding the hot potato at times. For me, if I can wrestle it out with cash, I'll do that. If trade is what it takes, then I really have to decide if I want the piece better than what's in my collection, which most of the time is a big "NO." Chuck, you and I did a trade deal back in 2002 or 2003, and to this day I still have the main piece I got out of that. I have since traded away one of the other pieces, towards a better example.

 

So, my advice for trades is to have patience, know all the markets in which you're dealing, and come prepared to deal on the same level as the person you're negotiating with. If that person typically pumps up their art, then you will have to at the same level. If that person is generally fair, then you should be too. In the end, and I've said this elsewhere, the best trades are when both parties walk away pretty happy, but no ecstatic and certainly not depressed. Finding that balance, however, is easier said than done.

 

Best of luck to all,

 

[truthAndSoulBaby]

 

I agree with a lot that has been said.

 

Although i don't strictly adhere to them, i think its worth mentioning the standard rules of thumb for trading (that i've observed, in hopes of further discussion, etc):

 

collectors want to trade like pieces, and like ages --

trade covers for covers, splashes for splashes, panels for panels

silver for silver, bronze for bronze, modern for modern.

 

of course, silver can be worth more than bronze, so a silver panel might trade for a bronze splash, etc.

 

most collectors (or dealers) won't take a stack of panel pages to trade a single high-end piece. for a dealer, think about the liquidity issue they face: if they take, in trade, 100 panel pages worth $5 a page for a single $500 page, then they have 100 times more work to do to make that $500. In other words, even if A*$X = B*$Y with A>>B and $X<<$Y, then A*$X is not good for business.

 

A big step in a trade is to estimate and match fair retail value of the proposed pieces on both sides of the trade. This is difficult, because most art is one-of-a-kind, so you'll never find an exactly comparable piece, but you can try to get close by age/piece/artist/character to what's on ebay, sold on heritage, or posted on dealer sites. I personally only use dealer sites to set an UPPER BOUND. Most of the time a piece is STILL on a dealer site because it is overpriced. eBay and heritage are the great equalizers here because, assuming it was a recent auction or sale, many collectors had the opportunity to state what they were willing to pay (via the auction format). A single high-end piece might sell on a dealer site instantly, but that's just because someone really had to have it. The next marginal buyer for the dealer might only be willing to pay significantly less. But in most auction formats, the gap between the highest and second highest bidder is only one bid (marginal) increment.

 

A problem with the auction prices is that most of the data is old. You can use CAF "market data" searches to find expired auction data from eBay and Heritage, but most likely it is 1-8 years old. There's not much sense in using values from (example) 2003, other than to say, yes or no, on the rate of appreciation of that piece.

 

In every trade I've done, at the end of the day, we're comparing and agreeing (or not) on retail value of pieces, and trying to swap fair retail value on both sides. The problem here is that a modern piece with the same retail value as a silver age piece, generally has a smaller rate of appreciation than the older (silver) piece. In fact, many modern pieces have a depreciation, because after the "hot summer" arc is over, the buzz goes away, and while the are might still be great, the story is not (so) enduring. Most collectors want to respect that older pieces generally have more future growth associated with them.

 

In my experience, most trades don't happen because tastes and value differences are too great. But it is fun, and a great way to meet other collectors and learn about other pieces and artists.

 

I'll end there...that's my econ 101 take on collectibles spiel...

 

g'nite -- j05h

 

 

[J.Sid]

For the most part, whenever you propose a trade, the other guy's first instinct will be that you are trying to pull one over on him.

 

Sometimes you are delusional about the value of your own items. (I know I am!)

[AKA Rick]

I agree with "Truth and Soul" in that it's just like if you brought a few long boxes of comic books with Overstreet price guide values of $3-5, or even if valued as the dollar bin books that they are, and tried to trade $1,000 in books for even a $300 comic to a dealer, a store or even a collector - - nobody wants to trade treasure for trash (so to speak).

 

That's why comic art is valued by supply and demand. If it was valued purely on scarcity, well every single page, whether from 1941 or from 2010, are all one of a kind items. The "x factor" to the value is the popularity that causes the demand. That's why some of the published pages from the bronze age by average non-brand-name artists are seeing such high values. I think the nostalgia has kicked in and fans of yesteryear are now reliving their childhood memories through these pages.

[Galactus]

For anyone who has traded directly with a dealer - In your experience, have you allowed the dealer to dictate the value that they place on your piece, and how does that usualy relate to the dealers own selling prices for similar pieces ?

[truthAndSoulBaby]

For anyone who has traded directly with a dealer - In your experience, have you allowed the dealer to dictate the value that they place on your piece, and how does that usualy relate to the dealers own selling prices for similar pieces ?

 

In all trades I've done with dealers, they've asked what I thought was fair retail value for the pieces offered. Actually, sometimes after the trade was agreed. Obviously, sometimes they'll disagree with your pricing, but if your trading with a dealer with a large stock, with transparent (e.g. NOT "please inquire") prices, then they can't argue too much over fair retail.

 

But as it has been stated in this post already, keep in mind that the dealers are trying to make a buck, and although usually what you're trying to get from them in trade they paid less (a lot less?) than what its listed for, your still not giving them cash. The benefit to them, is usually just refreshing their inventory.

 

I think its generally pretty transparent what stuff is BALLPARK worth, unless its an obscure artist, or a newer/modern art piece. A lot of dealers don't like the newer stuff because the audience is smaller (as was written in anothe post here, the nostalgia drives a lot of our obsession).

[AKA Rick]

With some dealers, it is a business of course, so it's a perspective of turning paper onto cash, so if they're sitting on a single $10k piece and has had it for 5 years with little interest either due to the price or lack of general interest, that dealer might do a trade for 5 pieces valued at $2,000 each or even 100 pieces at $100, to, as "truth and soul" mentioned, diverisfy inventory - but also know (from their experience) it's a lot easier maybe to then move (sell) smaller priced pieces and a "quality for quantity" trade may make sense.

 

As a collector, I don't think many would do those trade generally. But, for a dealer running a business it may make sense.

[truthAndSoulBaby]

With some dealers, it is a business of course, so it's a perspective of turning paper onto cash, so if they're sitting on a single $10k piece and has had it for 5 years with little interest either due to the price or lack of general interest, that dealer might do a trade for 5 pieces valued at $2,000 each or even 100 pieces at $100, to, as "truth and soul" mentioned, diverisfy inventory - but also know (from their experience) it's a lot easier maybe to then move (sell) smaller priced pieces and a "quality for quantity" trade may make sense.

 

As a collector, I don't think many would do those trade generally. But, for a dealer running a business it may make sense.

 

Yes, there's gotta be some balance between having to sell too many cheap pages and haivng one big piece to sell.

[blowout]

With some dealers, it is a business of course, so it's a perspective of turning paper onto cash, so if they're sitting on a single $10k piece and has had it for 5 years with little interest either due to the price or lack of general interest, that dealer might do a trade for 5 pieces valued at $2,000 each or even 100 pieces at $100, to, as "truth and soul" mentioned, diverisfy inventory - but also know (from their experience) it's a lot easier maybe to then move (sell) smaller priced pieces and a "quality for quantity" trade may make sense.

 

This may be true, but if you are trading with a dealer it is much more likely that a trade will occur if you are offering 6 pieces worth $2K each ($12K) for the dealers 1 $10K piece.

In my experience, no trade will occur with a dealer unless it is fairly heavily weighted in their favour.

[Sequential T]

In my experience, no trade will occur with a dealer unless it is fairly heavily weighted in their favour.

 

This is an extremely accurate point to always remember.