New pedigree - Suscha News

[rob_react]

To me, the "era of comic collecting" is from 1965 onwards.

 

What happened in or around 1965? One of the significant milestones is the first Overstreet guide in 1970.

 

More awareness, Marvel starting to get traction for the medium being not simply for kids, proto-comic shops popping up across the country, the booming of the fanzine world, so nothing particular but an acceleration of the organization of the collecting / hobby side of the medium.

 

Yeah, factors had been in place for a while and things just came together at that point. Conventions started up in the later 60s as well.

[fantastic_four]

It has been a while since we discussed the specifics, and it's quoting--or possibly misquoting--someone else as I haven't seen verification of it apart from these boards, but my recollection is that washing is the main way you remove it, that dry erasure doesn't do it, but cover removal isn't necessary, that you can spot-wash it and that the result is undetectable, I need to search to recall more or who's said that.

 

OK, I traced back to the first thread I had seen where someone talked about the removability of dust shadows--it was FFB quoting Tracey Heft from 2005. There are a number of other threads where the differences between dust shadows, sun shadows, tanning, and removability are discussed as well, but this one contains the most specific info about the removability of dust shadows:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=30&Number=907989

[the blob]

if you're putting together this pedigree during the era of comic collecting, it sounds like a collection to me

 

Was the late 50s/early 60s the era of comic collecting? I'm under the impression that it wasn't. I wasn't alive then, but that was long before Overstreet even started printing a guide or we were commonly using the coin "mint" terms to describe condition.

 

if the bulk of the collection comes from post '66 or so and the earlier stuff may have been picked up secondhand, yes. overstreet wasn't out yet, but you saw the back issue ads in comics, etc. starting around then. pretty sure there were fanzines. iron man 1, iron man subby, etc. were sold as first issue collectors items and that was 68, so it wasn't a new idea then. some superman comic in 66 is talking about old comics being valuable, etc..

 

you're literally describing thousands of collections put together by baby boomers. starting in the mid-60's. these collections of OO material walked into my LCSes like on a weekly basis in the 80's as these guys got sick of boxes of comics in their closet and wanted some cash.

 

just my opinion. i'm not a pedigree person and I'd like it to be reserved for something epic like the church accumulation and there was the one where the kid was killed in WW II. green river has that creepiness factor to it...

[fantastic_four]

The Overstreet collection (Golden Age as well as Silver Age) was basically a "Assembled" Collection. At that time Steve Borock wasn't whoring out the CGC label (Milehighcomics.com) for collection notations. To me assembled collections should not be pedigrees. I still agree with Joe Vernault who wrote a very early article in CBM that there should not be a lot of Silver Age pedigrees.

 

But shouldn't the books Overstreet bought from the stands be pedigreed if not the ones he back-bought? His off-the-stand Marvel and DC books are better than many current pedigrees. Just because he bought Golden Age second-hand doesn't minimize the quality of what he did buy first-hand. The most reasonable solution is to selectively disinclude the books he didn't buy from the stands if that's at all possible; perhaps it was impossible with Overstreet's collection. If Overstreet did remember what he bought off the stands and it was both extensive and high grade, if his back-buying taints those books, then Curator definitely shouldn't be a pedigree.

 

Also, any idea where "Diamond Run" got its name?

[fantastic_four]

there was the one where the kid was killed in WW II.

 

Tom Reilly/San Francisco, which probably has the highest average grades and best page quality of the Golden Age. Not as extensive as the Church collection but possibly better on a per-book basis. Oakland pales to collections like those...hopefully Suscha starts showing better material soon.

[Mr. Zipper]

It has been a while since we discussed the specifics, and it's quoting--or possibly misquoting--someone else as I haven't seen verification of it apart from these boards, but my recollection is that washing is the main way you remove it, that dry erasure doesn't do it, but cover removal isn't necessary, that you can spot-wash it and that the result is undetectable, I need to search to recall more or who's said that.

 

OK, I traced back to the first thread I had seen where someone talked about the removability of dust shadows--it was FFB quoting Tracey Heft from 2005. There are a number of other threads where the differences between dust shadows, sun shadows, tanning, and removability are discussed as well, but this one contains the most specific info about the removability of dust shadows:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=30&Number=907989

 

I was aware of all of this. My question was directed at your statement regarding how CGC grades dust shadows -- "they are removable, therefore not graded harshly." That I had never heard before.

[adamstrange]

The Overstreet collection (Golden Age as well as Silver Age) was basically a "Assembled" Collection. At that time Steve Borock wasn't whoring out the CGC label (Milehighcomics.com) for collection notations. To me assembled collections should not be pedigrees. I still agree with Joe Vernault who wrote a very early article in CBM that there should not be a lot of Silver Age pedigrees.

 

But shouldn't the books Overstreet bought from the stands be pedigreed if not the ones he back-bought? His off-the-stand Marvel and DC books are better than many current pedigrees. Just because he bought Golden Age second-hand doesn't minimize the quality of what he did buy first-hand. The most reasonable solution is to selectively disinclude the books he didn't buy from the stands if that's at all possible; perhaps it was impossible with Overstreet's collection. If Overstreet did remember what he bought off the stands and it was both extensive and high grade, if his back-buying taints those books, then Curator definitely shouldn't be a pedigree.

 

Also, any idea where "Diamond Run" got its name?

Overstreet had 25,000 second hand Golden Age comics so it did not occur to folks to assign a pedigree designation when only a fraction of the collection (some SA) would fit that definition. Nor were the Overstreet comics, while nice, so spectacular in the same way that say the WMs, Curators or PCs.

 

Originally, pedigree designation were primarily used for comics with a 10cent cover price. Comics more recent than those are generally more prevalent in grade and preservation as to make it less distinctive to have a pedigree designation.

[fantastic_four]

I was aware of all of this. My question was directed at your statement regarding how CGC grades dust shadows -- "they are removable, therefore not graded harshly." That I had never heard before.

 

That's absolute conjecture, I think solely on my part, I don't think I borrowed that one. For years I wondered why they don't downgrade for soiling and guessed they don't do it since you can dry erase or clean it, and when I found out dust shadows are removable, I hypothesized that dust shadows aren't downgraded for the same reason. Reverse-engineering is what we have to do for most of CGC's standards since they're not documented. I could be wrong, but it's the only sense I can make as to why they don't downgrade for soiling and dust shadows.

[the blob]

there was the one where the kid was killed in WW II.

 

Tom Reilly/San Francisco, which probably has the highest average grades and best page quality of the Golden Age. Not as extensive as the Church collection but possibly better on a per-book basis. Oakland pales to collections like those...hopefully Suscha starts showing better material soon.

 

a friend of mine stumbled on something like this in the 70's. visiting an older family friend with his family, sees her son's room. the kid was killed in the korean war, had all his comics from his childhood on the bookshelves well preserved, room was kept like a shrine. they were worth a lot even then, but he couldn't bring himself to try and get them from her she was so particular about nothing in there being moved, etc.

 

sadly, when she died i'd venture to guess they got chucked.

 

of course, this was the same guy who would later run a shop and was more than happy to pay widows and orphans pennies on the dollar for what they brought in. i guess it was payback for missing out on this find of a lifetime.

[fantastic_four]

Overstreet had 25,000 second hand Golden Age comics so it did not occur to folks to assign a pedigree designation when only a fraction of the collection (some SA) would fit that definition. Nor were the Overstreet comics, while nice, so spectacular in the same way that say the WMs, Curators or PCs.

 

Originally, pedigree designation were primarily used for comics with a 10cent cover price. Comics more recent than those are generally more prevalent in grade and preservation as to make it less distinctive to have a pedigree designation.

 

We've subsequently realized that pre-1965 books aren't as plentiful as once believed, which is the likely reason CGC recognizes them. I haven't seen a master list of Overstreet's books, but I've heard he had runs of some or all of the major Silver titles in high grade. I agree it doesn't sound as good as WM, Curator, or PC, but it sounds as if it could be better than Oakland, Suscha News, Rocky Mountain, Winnipeg, or Ohio.

[adamstrange]

Overstreet had 25,000 second hand Golden Age comics so it did not occur to folks to assign a pedigree designation when only a fraction of the collection (some SA) would fit that definition. Nor were the Overstreet comics, while nice, so spectacular in the same way that say the WMs, Curators or PCs.

 

Originally, pedigree designation were primarily used for comics with a 10cent cover price. Comics more recent than those are generally more prevalent in grade and preservation as to make it less distinctive to have a pedigree designation.

 

We've subsequently realized that pre-1965 books aren't as plentiful as once believed, which is the likely reason CGC recognizes them. I haven't seen a master list of Overstreet's books, but I've heard he had runs of some or all of the major Silver titles in high grade. I agree it doesn't sound as good as WM, Curator, or PC, but it sounds as if it could be better than Oakland, Suscha News, Rocky Mountain, Winnipeg, or Ohio.

Overstreet SA original owner books could be more impressive than the collections you cite. If a vote were to be taken, I would not vote for pedigree designation of Overstreet or the others you cite save for Ohio. There are hundreds of very nice GA Ohio books and that was the reason it initially received acceptance as a pedigree.

[rob_react]

Overstreet had 25,000 second hand Golden Age comics so it did not occur to folks to assign a pedigree designation when only a fraction of the collection (some SA) would fit that definition. Nor were the Overstreet comics, while nice, so spectacular in the same way that say the WMs, Curators or PCs.

 

Originally, pedigree designation were primarily used for comics with a 10cent cover price. Comics more recent than those are generally more prevalent in grade and preservation as to make it less distinctive to have a pedigree designation.

 

We've subsequently realized that pre-1965 books aren't as plentiful as once believed, which is the likely reason CGC recognizes them. I haven't seen a master list of Overstreet's books, but I've heard he had runs of some or all of the major Silver titles in high grade. I agree it doesn't sound as good as WM, Curator, or PC, but it sounds as if it could be better than Oakland, Suscha News, Rocky Mountain, Winnipeg, or Ohio.

Overstreet SA original owner books could be more impressive than the collections you cite. If a vote were to be taken, I would not vote for pedigree designation of Overstreet or the others you cite save for Ohio. There are hundreds of very nice GA Ohio books and that was the reason it initially received acceptance as a pedigree.

 

Yeah, I've never owned any of the latter pedigrees and while I wouldn't be against owning any of them, I'd never pay a premium for the privilege. White Mountain, Pacific Coast and Curator are in another league entirely (which is why I do pay a premium for those books.)

[fantastic_four]

If a vote were to be taken, I would not vote for pedigree designation of Overstreet or the others you cite save for Ohio.

 

Have you heard when his off-the-stand collection begins? The earliest I've actually heard of is that he owned from FF #1 on up, but I presume it begins prior to then. I never heard if he had a nice Showcase 4 or not that he originally purchased.

[GACollectibles]

Cool! Did this one make it into the pedigree book?

[Green]

I thinks funny when a new pedigree comes out and people pizz and moan.

 

Not really sure how this could ever be construed as a bad thing.

 

QQ moar plz

[Jeffro.]

Cool! Did this one make it into the pedigree book?

 

Urban legend

[rob_react]

there's a collection that started yesterday that still has time to make it into the pedigree book.

[DrWatson]

Cool! Did this one make it into the pedigree book?

 

Urban legend

I have seen parts of it.

[Timmay]

there's a collection that started yesterday that still has time to make it into the pedigree book.

 

[VintageComics]

If a vote were to be taken, I would not vote for pedigree designation of Overstreet or the others you cite save for Ohio.

 

Have you heard when his off-the-stand collection begins? The earliest I've actually heard of is that he owned from FF #1 on up, but I presume it begins prior to then. I never heard if he had a nice Showcase 4 or not that he originally purchased.

 

The Ohio has a GL #1 in it from 1960 (I almost bought it) so there were definitely pre 1961 books in it.

 

I can ask Nelson Dodds the next time I see him how far back the collection actually went.

 

An interesting thing to note is that the earliest books from the Ohio collection were not necessarily high grade. Many of them had a crease in the middle of the book from being folded and put into the back pocket of the OO's pants as he made his merry way from the local store where he bought the books.

 

It wasn't until later that he realized that the book should be kept flat.