The Official "Hey, these scores need fixing" thread (Revised)

[Bosco685]

Great recommendations on super creative contributors.

 

But then we have to factor in scarcity into the equation, right? So how mass-produced was the John Carter Frank Miller issue compared to a low-production independent company? Michael can provide some numbers as he has some super references, but I'm going to go out on a limb and assume there is a big difference.

 

Is there any shortage of X-Men #108 (a book I very much appreciate)? With 827 in the census on the regular edition, and 14 on the UK variant, I think the market is very well supplied. And John Carter #18 with only 27 copies in the census is most probably because of lack of interest compared to Daredevil #158 or #168, which are always in much higher demand.

 

But I would never take away from Frank Miller, John Byrne, or John Buscema, who were and still are my favorites. But early contributors like Chuck Dixon hit at the right time to help drive the Copper Age as writers. And that is the period of comics I value above all others.

[mschmidt]

Having a notation saying "Chuck Dixon's 1st work" on the label isn't really going to change this - it's a dollar-bin book that's relatively hard to find in 9.8 because it's been in a dollar bin all these years, just like so many other copper age books.

 

I do agree that most would care less. And you also know I very much respect your opinion.

 

But this registry is geared towards folks that value certain titles/characters/books, and put the effort into their titles through research and perseverance. I would hope the points reflect this when the significance of a book is discovered.

 

Look at Primer #2, which I agree has significant value. But many on here know of the Koch warehouse find that he sold through over the years. Not rare at all, and yet folks will drop $500 on a 9.8 because it's a must-have, and the registry reflects this super-high value.

 

And I have no problem with anyone countering my recommendations. But it's like a few months ago when you felt my recommendation on Razor Annual #1 was off-the-wall because "nobody really cared about this book." And at the time, there were 7 in the census. Now there are 34. Someone else cared more than me, and I am sure CGC appreciated the small but rather decent jump.

 

And no - they are not all mine.

 

 

Find that Primer 6 9.8 and I guarantee you $60 for this insignificant book. How's that to keep it interesting? And I'm not being a smart aleck. I'm being serious.

 

 

You can't really compare those two books, though - Primer #2 scores high in the registry because it's valuable, it's in demand, it features the first appearance of a popular character and it's also fairly difficult to find in 9.8. Primer #6, however, doesn't have this demand, the value or the 1st appearance - it only has the "difficult in 9.8"-aspect (which can be said for pretty much any book you & I collect ).

 

I wholeheartedly agree that basing registry points solely on monetary value is silly - but using "number of copies slabbed" as the defining criteria for registry points is just as bad. If that was the case, 1/3 of my Sandman run should be worth 500 points or more due to the fact that I own the only CGC 9.8 copy of those particular books. Which, considering if I tried to sell them I'd probably only get $30-40/book, would make no sense whatsoever.

 

Imho, giving a book a registry bump due to a mitigating factor (1st appearance of a character, 1st published work, classic cover, low print run, etc) - compared to other books with the same FMV - is great. However, ignoring the FMV entirely when you assign a points value is not.

[Bosco685]

Imho, giving a book a registry bump due to a mitigating factor (1st appearance of a character, 1st published work, classic cover, low print run, etc) - compared to other books with the same FMV - is great. However, ignoring the FMV entirely when you assign a points value is not.

 

There is a big difference between high-grade raw versus slab sales. Since there has never been a slabbed version sold - which I know you realize - how can I judge FMV against points? And we all know the difference in price between raw and slabbed when selling.

 

As an example, New Mutants #98 in NM+ raw goes for $45-60. Slabbed at 9.8, it can sell from $225-$275. Big difference in price. But Primer #6 is not in the same demand category as New Mutants #98, and I realize that.

 

So I'll give in on 600 maybe being too high, but be fair then there can be a huge difference in price when it comes to high-grade books when raw versus slabbed. Trying to assign points to a slab by balancing against raw sales seems just as off as not considering slabbed FMV.

[mschmidt]

Imho, giving a book a registry bump due to a mitigating factor (1st appearance of a character, 1st published work, classic cover, low print run, etc) - compared to other books with the same FMV - is great. However, ignoring the FMV entirely when you assign a points value is not.

 

There is a big difference between high-grade raw versus slab sales. Since there has never been a slabbed version sold - which I know you realize - how can I judge FMV against points? And we all know the difference in price between raw and slabbed when selling.

 

As an example, New Mutants #98 in NM+ raw goes for $45-60. Slabbed at 9.8, it can sell from $225-$275. Big difference in price. But Primer #6 is not in the same demand category as New Mutants #98, and I realize that.

 

So I'll give in on 600 maybe being too high, but be fair then there can be a huge difference in price when it comes to high-grade books when raw versus slabbed. Trying to assign points to a slab by balancing against raw sales seems just as off as not considering slabbed FMV.

 

Certainly - but how much do you honestly think a Primer #6 in CGC 9.8 would sell for? You offered me $60 earlier - I personally wouldn't pay more than that either.

 

In contrast, New Mutants #98 in CGC 9.8 is, as you say, a $225-$275 book - and that's worth 120 registry points.

[Bosco685]

Certainly - but how much do you honestly think a Primer #6 in CGC 9.8 would sell for? You offered me $60 earlier - I personally wouldn't pay more than that either.

 

It would be interesting to see a straight auction, but I already bought your copy.

 

 

In contrast, New Mutants #98 in CGC 9.8 is, as you say, a $225-$275 book - and that's worth 120 registry points.

 

It was worth 35 points until I campaigned to be realistic on the points assigned just a few months ago.

 

But it's all good.

[cheetah]

Great recommendations on super creative contributors.

 

But then we have to factor in scarcity into the equation, right? So how mass-produced was the John Carter Frank Miller issue compared to a low-production independent company? Michael can provide some numbers as he has some super references, but I'm going to go out on a limb and assume there is a big difference.

 

Is there any shortage of X-Men #108 (a book I very much appreciate)? With 827 in the census on the regular edition, and 14 on the UK variant, I think the market is very well supplied. And John Carter #18 with only 27 copies in the census is most probably because of lack of interest compared to Daredevil #158 or #168, which are always in much higher demand.

 

But I would never take away from Frank Miller, John Byrne, or John Buscema, who were and still are my favorites. But early contributors like Chuck Dixon hit at the right time to help drive the Copper Age as writers. And that is the period of comics I value above all others.

 

I think you ought to go ahead and do the research. I'm sure there are hundreds of other artists and writers that you could compare. And FWIW, John Carter Warlord of Mars 19 qualifiies as one of the two toughest books for me to find in the last four years )along with Avengers 365). Still looking for a 9.8 copy of both.

[cheetah]

Oh, and BTW, Byrne's first work with the X-men wasn't on the X-men.

[Bosco685]

Oh, and BTW, Byrne's first work with the X-men wasn't on the X-men.

 

I'm very well aware of the Marvel Team-Up issues, but 108 is the book that kicks off the run (as you know).

 

I collected Bronze X-Men off-and-on too, though not my focus anymore once I had UXM 94-300 out of the way.

[Bosco685]

And FWIW, John Carter Warlord of Mars 19 qualifiies as one of the two toughest books for me to find in the last four years )along with Avengers 365). Still looking for a 9.8 copy of both.

 

Did Frank Miller work on John Carter #19 too? I know #18 was the 1st professional work. I thought he only did work on 18, 25, 26.

 

[cheetah]

18. Just a typo.

[Bosco685]

18. Just a typo.

 

(thumbs u

[Bosco685]

I think you ought to go ahead and do the research. I'm sure there are hundreds of other artists and writers that you could compare.

 

I appreciate what you are saying (and have said in the past whenever discussing registry points). But I'd love to help break you out of your Marvel Bronze Age focus even for a short while, and introduce you to Copper Age independents. You may like some of the titles/creative teams/characters. You'd also find out it's not so easy to compare mass-produced Big Two books to this period.

 

But in no way do I mean your books mean less than my books. Never the intent. It's just a different category of collecting than Marvel or DC books. And many of these books are tough to track down easily in 9.4-9.8, or else the majority of collectors would have them already.

 

Dark Horse Presents has some of the better long-running material worth reading. I would also recommend this run to anyone trying to understand Copper Age independents, and why so many get excited over tracking these down.

[cheetah]

. My earliest dated book is 1937 and my latest book came out last week. I've got over 25,000 raw books to go along with my 5,000 slabs. I have so many independent books I wouldn't even want to try to count. Just because I haven't slabbed them doesn't mean I don't have them.

[Bosco685]

 

Well, then maybe you need to do a little more research on their scarcity and impact. I was in your situation a few years back, with over 37,000 comics ranging from 1919 (Bringing Up Father 2, 3) all the way to early Modern Age books. After reevaluating my focus once returning to comics, Copper Age independents was an easy fit for me. Blew out all the other books for room and funds, and never looked back.

 

Comparing books that have a print run that are sub-10,000 to large-scale produced titles is one difference. But these could also be considered a category unto themselves because many had content never produced before (and with many of these B&W's, we wish they hadn't been produced).

 

But sometimes it is a situation of "agreeing to disagree," and enjoying our collecting focus.

 

[Bosco685]

Hi Gemma.

 

So by this week, we should now have two graded copies of Primer #6 (Comico Comics) in the census. It has taken four years to find two copies even worth submitting, these have become so difficult to track down in high grade.

 

Since this is Chuck Dixon's first professional comic work long before his fantastic 1992-1999 extensive run on Detective Comics, it has more significance than most would realize. But in-between the two series, he also worked on Airboy, Batgirl, J.R.R. Tolkien's The Hobbit, Moon Knight, Nightwing, Punisher, and Robin. He also found some time to work on Birds of Prey, Catwoman, Green Arrow, Team 7, and Prophet. And in the near-term, he is working on Dynamite's Man With No Name series and IDW's G.I. Joe series. One of the clear workhorses of the comic industry!

 

I add all that detail so if anyone is not aware of the critical nature of this book, they should be now. And yes, Primer #6 also contains the 1st appearance of a semi-minor character, Evangeline.

 

I'd like to recommend this book be assigned 600 points for a 9.8 Universal, although it will be interesting if we ever see a copy at this level. And with Primer #2 having 1,040 points due to the popular 1st appearance of Grendel and 285 copies in the census, I don't think it is an unreasonable request on an extremely tough book with a count of two.

 

By the way, I'm not even sure if the label will state "1st professional work of Chuck Dixon" since none have ever been submitted before.

 

 

Thanks for your consideration.

 

Nick

 

So, before the Kopper Kaiser jumped in with his jackboots and stomped all over the fun ( ), I was trying to publically lock down a points recommendation for this book.

 

Taking into consideration the content, scarcity, and demand (though not as high in any way as a Primer #2), what would the recommendation be?

 

And it has a lot more going for it than Primer #1, so that comparison I have an issue with. Evangeline was one of those characters that had a much longer moment in the spotlight than anything that came out of the first issue. And Chuck Dixon - though no Frank Miller - has contributed to many areas of the comic industry across DC, Marvel, and independent titles.

 

I really think it will be extremely rare that we see a 9.8, which is why I recommended 600 points. And I've been searching for four years before I found my 9.6 and 9.4 copies, though I am not a reseller buying up huge amounts of collections leading to the feeling this is in the "common" category. I doubt this, as I know of one other huge Copper Age reseller/collector that was bragging to me he had finally found his first high-grade copy. And this fellow has hundreds of long boxes filled with Copper Age.

 

Can it be found in low-grade? You bet - Mile High and Mycomicshop have been selling VG to Fine copies for months. High-grade (9.4 and above), you rarely find this book at that grade.

[mschmidt]

The Kopper Kaiser

 

My vote's for 80 points in 9.8 (and to bump the Primer #1 in 9.8 down to 60 points).

[Bosco685]

The Kopper Kaiser

 

My vote's for 80 points in 9.8 (and to bump the Primer #1 in 9.8 down to 60 points).

 

Now that I can agree to.

 

DISCLAIMER: The day Hulk 181 9.8 is worth 150 points, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 1 9.8 is worth 200 points, and Wolverine Limited Series 1 9.8 is worth a well-deserved 20 points.

 

[Mr 9.8]

"I buy a lot of Copper Age independents as well and have to admit finding some of these low-distribution books in high grade is tough."

 

 

[Marvelfangirl]

I have to agree with Nick on this one.

 

Primer #6 is by far the toughest book to find in NM-MT.

 

Anyone that collects Copper Age books knows how hard it is to find one in NM-MT

 

(I don't think my brother can find a NM-MT copy )

 

I think it should get a least 600 to 650 points in CGC 9.8

[Bosco685]

I have to agree with Nick on this one.

 

Primer #6 is by far the toughest book to find in NM-MT.

 

Anyone that collects Copper Age books knows how hard it is to find one in NM-MT

 

(I don't think my brother can find a NM-MT copy )

 

I think it should get a least 600 to 650 points in CGC 9.8

 

 

Beware the Kaiser. He wanders from the Hinterland to stomp Copper Age joy from the registry.

 

Wow, that sounds like some form of comic book boogie man.