No more Paypal personal for me. Big Brother came and took it :(

[lookwhoitis]

As for paypal, if you have an account that does not accept CCs, you can basically have the same benefits of a personal transaction if someone is willing to pay you via balance/bank tranfer (and I don't think you could make personal payments via CC anyway), plus they get some paypal protections. Between me and my wife we have 2 paypal accounts. Her's takes CCs, so that's what we use for ebay.

 

NOPE!

 

That was done away with when the Personal payment was initiated.

 

I kept two Paypal accounts just for that reason. One personal, and one that took credit cards.

 

I just had a big conflagration with paypal over it. All payments received are now charged fees, whether they are by credit card or not.

[Subliminal]

My Summary:

 

The Paypal ToS is simply a starter pistol put to the heads of all who have to deal with them.

It is not a take it or leave it document and if you don't totally agree with it then don't do business with them.

In order to influence the practices of a business you have to do business with them and, as their customer , influence how they treat customers.

 

Making use of their service requires you to interpret their draconian intentions to the best of your ability and match them to your service requirements.

It should be clear at the time of that transaction not be subject to post judgments in their favour.

Examples they want you to treat as gospel as to what constitutes a personal payment, are merely that, examples, not what happens in the real world of transactions and are merely there so they can skirt laws they don't like.

 

Paypal doesn't consider your use of Personal payments that they don't agree with as theft.

If they did they would close your account and call the police.

Instead they restrict your account and gouge you with fees for personal payments.

 

By their very actions they decide to up your fees, even if your friends send unsolicited personal payments and regardless of why.

They don't care why or the issue of morals, only that they set this trap when they created personal payments and they will choose to deal with you with great profit, rather than charge a fair rate for a transaction that involves a shipment that they provide no guarantee or protection for

 

The service they provide for a personal payment is totally different than a payment for a shipment of an item that has paypal protection and friends accept that risk for the reduction of fees.

 

Dealing with companies like Paypal is a daily battle to keep as much of your money as you can because the rules like they post as ToS are constantly changing and constantly broken broken by them.

The only power of the consumer is to challenge them both as a group and individually to get the best bang for your buck.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

My Summary:

 

The Paypal ToS is simply a starter pistol put to the heads of all who have to deal with them.

It is not a take it or leave it document and if you don't totally agree with it then don't do business with them.

In order to influence the practices of a business you have to do business with them and, as their customer , influence how they treat customers.

 

Making use of their service requires you to interpret their draconian intentions to the best of you ability and match them to what they are trying to do, which is serve their customers.

 

Examples they want you to treat as gospel as to what constitutes a personal payment, are merely that, examples, not what happens in the real world of transactions and are merely there so they can skirt laws they don't like.

 

Paypal doesn't consider your use of Personal payments that they don't agree with as theft.

If they did they would close your account and call the police.

 

 

That's an assumption that cannot be made. Sorry.

 

Instead they restrict your account and gouge you with fees for personal payments.

 

By their very actions they decide to up your fees, even if your friends send unsolicited personal payments and regardless of why.

They don't care why or the issue of morals, only that they set this trap when they created personal payments and they will choose to deal with you with great profit, rather than charge a fair rate for a transaction that involves a shipment that they provide no guarantee or protection for

 

The service they provide for a personal payment is totally different than a payment for a shipment of an item that has paypal protection and friends accept that risk for the reduction of fees.

 

Dealing with companies like Paypal is a daily battle to keep as much of your money as you can because the rules like they post as ToS are constantly changing and constantly broken broken by them.

The only power of the consumer is to challenge them both as a group and individually to get the best bang for your buck.

 

 

What part of "“Personal Payment” means amounts sent between two individuals (not to or from a business) without a purchase." is unclear to you people?

 

What is it about "without a purchase" that is so mystifying?

 

"without a purchase"...it means NOT BUYING SOMETHING.

 

This is not rocket science.

 

It is not vague.

 

It is not unclear.

 

It is not dependent on what Paypal does, thinks, or says outside of the TOS.

 

It is in plain, clear, black and white English, in their published User Agreement (TOS.)

 

"“Personal Payment” means amounts sent between two individuals (not to or from a business) without a purchase."

 

Without. A. Purchase.

 

If you USE personal payments to AVOID either yourself or your merchant paying fees, you have violated Paypal's TOS...regardless of how Paypal reacts to it..and therefore have stolen those fees from them, regardless of how little.

 

Your arguments are utterly without merit.

[Dollarbill]

::

 

RMA I have just realized you are the annoying little brother that will do anything for attention. There is absolutely no point in having an argument with you as you just keep making ridiculous comparisons and repeating the same exact thing in varying ways.

 

For you, there is no real reason to defend Paypal other than the fact that more members are taking the opposite side. I get it, thats your thing, everyone hates you, you love the notoriety, and eventually the thread burns out because everyone else realizes this very point.

 

You had me on the hook until you compared me to Robojo :: It wasn't offensive just ridiculous. Enjoy fighting with the remaining few members who have the intestinal fortitude to continue the torture by proxy (thumbs u

 

 

Mike, I don't know if you've followed the entire thread but what I see has happened is that even though people agree with RMA in regards to the point of this thread, they continue to argue with him on tangential points that have nothing to do with the thread.

 

So, people come on and agree with RMA that Paypal Personal should not be abused and that it is wrong...

 

...and then they take offense at the analogy he used to try and get his point across.

 

 

Think about it. It's funny.

 

 

 

My take was grounded on the beleif that PP are a bunch of crooks.

 

Speaking of crooks.

 

You do know your still on the PROBATION LIST,right?

 

[hockey&comicsguy]

My Summary:

 

The Paypal ToS is simply a starter pistol put to the heads of all who have to deal with them.

It is not a take it or leave it document and if you don't totally agree with it then don't do business with them.

In order to influence the practices of a business you have to do business with them and, as their customer , influence how they treat customers.

 

Making use of their service requires you to interpret their draconian intentions to the best of you ability and match them to what they are trying to do, which is serve their customers.

 

Examples they want you to treat as gospel as to what constitutes a personal payment, are merely that, examples, not what happens in the real world of transactions and are merely there so they can skirt laws they don't like.

 

Paypal doesn't consider your use of Personal payments that they don't agree with as theft.

If they did they would close your account and call the police.

 

 

That's an assumption that cannot be made. Sorry.

 

Instead they restrict your account and gouge you with fees for personal payments.

 

By their very actions they decide to up your fees, even if your friends send unsolicited personal payments and regardless of why.

They don't care why or the issue of morals, only that they set this trap when they created personal payments and they will choose to deal with you with great profit, rather than charge a fair rate for a transaction that involves a shipment that they provide no guarantee or protection for

 

The service they provide for a personal payment is totally different than a payment for a shipment of an item that has paypal protection and friends accept that risk for the reduction of fees.

 

Dealing with companies like Paypal is a daily battle to keep as much of your money as you can because the rules like they post as ToS are constantly changing and constantly broken broken by them.

The only power of the consumer is to challenge them both as a group and individually to get the best bang for your buck.

 

 

What part of "“Personal Payment” means amounts sent between two individuals (not to or from a business) without a purchase." is unclear to you people?

 

What is it about "without a purchase" that is so mystifying?

 

"without a purchase"...it means NOT BUYING SOMETHING.

 

This is not rocket science.

 

It is not vague.

 

It is not unclear.

 

It is not dependent on what Paypal does, thinks, or says outside of the TOS.

 

It is in plain, clear, black and white English, in their published User Agreement (TOS.)

 

"“Personal Payment” means amounts sent between two individuals (not to or from a business) without a purchase."

 

Without. A. Purchase.

 

If you USE personal payments to AVOID either yourself or your merchant paying fees, you have violated Paypal's TOS...regardless of how Paypal reacts to it..and therefore have stolen those fees from them, regardless of how little.

Your arguments are utterly without merit.

 

You need a new closing statement. I swear you're going to wear this one out.

 

Oh, and for the record, i'm in agreement with you position on this whole thievery of paypal. (thumbs u

 

But I don't give a shet about paypal so......

[Green]

My Summary:

 

The Paypal ToS is simply a starter pistol put to the heads of all who have to deal with them.

It is not a take it or leave it document and if you don't totally agree with it then don't do business with them.

In order to influence the practices of a business you have to do business with them and, as their customer , influence how they treat customers.

 

Making use of their service requires you to interpret their draconian intentions to the best of you ability and match them to what they are trying to do, which is serve their customers.

 

Examples they want you to treat as gospel as to what constitutes a personal payment, are merely that, examples, not what happens in the real world of transactions and are merely there so they can skirt laws they don't like.

 

Paypal doesn't consider your use of Personal payments that they don't agree with as theft.

If they did they would close your account and call the police.

 

 

That's an assumption that cannot be made. Sorry.

 

Instead they restrict your account and gouge you with fees for personal payments.

 

By their very actions they decide to up your fees, even if your friends send unsolicited personal payments and regardless of why.

They don't care why or the issue of morals, only that they set this trap when they created personal payments and they will choose to deal with you with great profit, rather than charge a fair rate for a transaction that involves a shipment that they provide no guarantee or protection for

 

The service they provide for a personal payment is totally different than a payment for a shipment of an item that has paypal protection and friends accept that risk for the reduction of fees.

 

Dealing with companies like Paypal is a daily battle to keep as much of your money as you can because the rules like they post as ToS are constantly changing and constantly broken broken by them.

The only power of the consumer is to challenge them both as a group and individually to get the best bang for your buck.

 

 

What part of "“Personal Payment” means amounts sent between two individuals (not to or from a business) without a purchase." is unclear to you people?

 

What is it about "without a purchase" that is so mystifying?

 

"without a purchase"...it means NOT BUYING SOMETHING.

 

This is not rocket science.

 

It is not vague.

 

It is not unclear.

 

It is not dependent on what Paypal does, thinks, or says outside of the TOS.

 

It is in plain, clear, black and white English, in their published User Agreement (TOS.)

 

"“Personal Payment” means amounts sent between two individuals (not to or from a business) without a purchase."

 

Without. A. Purchase.

 

If you USE personal payments to AVOID either yourself or your merchant paying fees, you have violated Paypal's TOS...regardless of how Paypal reacts to it..and therefore have stolen those fees from them, regardless of how little.

 

Your arguments are utterly without merit.

Since it says "a", can i pay for 2 purchases with a personal payment. Surely in your black and white 0 room for interpretation world, that would not violate any sanctimonious paypal vows i have sworn.

[brasseye]

My Summary:

 

The Paypal ToS is simply a starter pistol put to the heads of all who have to deal with them.

It is not a take it or leave it document and if you don't totally agree with it then don't do business with them.

In order to influence the practices of a business you have to do business with them and, as their customer , influence how they treat customers.

 

Making use of their service requires you to interpret their draconian intentions to the best of your ability and match them to your service requirements.

It should be clear at the time of that transaction not be subject to post judgments in their favour.

Examples they want you to treat as gospel as to what constitutes a personal payment, are merely that, examples, not what happens in the real world of transactions and are merely there so they can skirt laws they don't like.

 

Paypal doesn't consider your use of Personal payments that they don't agree with as theft.

If they did they would close your account and call the police.

Instead they restrict your account and gouge you with fees for personal payments.

 

By their very actions they decide to up your fees, even if your friends send unsolicited personal payments and regardless of why.

They don't care why or the issue of morals, only that they set this trap when they created personal payments and they will choose to deal with you with great profit, rather than charge a fair rate for a transaction that involves a shipment that they provide no guarantee or protection for

 

The service they provide for a personal payment is totally different than a payment for a shipment of an item that has paypal protection and friends accept that risk for the reduction of fees.

 

Dealing with companies like Paypal is a daily battle to keep as much of your money as you can because the rules like they post as ToS are constantly changing and constantly broken broken by them.

The only power of the consumer is to challenge them both as a group and individually to get the best bang for your buck.

 

 

[the blob]

Of course anyone is able to start up a business but obviously a lot of people are unable to do so while living up to their responsibilties in providing a home and food for their family. There are a huge amount of people who try to start a business and fail, sometimes through their own fault and sometimes due to outside circumstances.

 

----------------

 

Unfortunately, a lot of people work at a job for years and get laid off and are also just as sh*t out of luck as they'd be if they tried to start their own business. Honestly, I'm not sure trying to start a sane business is any riskier than putting your trust in an employer not showing you the door and giving you 2 days severance and THEN telling unemployment you were fired for cause so their insurance premiums don't go up (and creating a nightmare for you to collect unemployment insurance).

 

ANyway, this is a side issue from paypal. I'm happy to see people nickel and dime their way out of paypal fees, but it will eventually kill the goose that lays those golden eggs and they'll get rid of the fee free options.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Oh, one thing Mike....

 

I am not defending Paypal. They certainly don't need me to do it.

 

I am defending what is right.

 

The only thing separating you and Robojo is degree.

 

Kinda sad, when you think about it.

 

Sweet God I can't help myself, you have some sort of power

 

You can't disagree that your reputation on these boards is love/hate.

 

Sure I can.

 

For one, this isn't high school, and I'm not competing in a popularity contest.

 

For another, the whole "Everyone hates RMA" shtick is just that: a shtick. I don't believe it for a second. While the majority of the boards may not always like what I say or the way I say it, the vast majority of the boards also has a fair level of respect for me, even if it's grudging. There are a handful of people who truly dislike me, but so what? That's true of anyone who spends any time in any social group. But the important thing is, it's THEIR problem...not mine. Anyone who truly hates someone they have never met, and who has never done anything to them to earn such venom has much more serious problems than their dislike of me.

 

Taking themselves far too seriously is just the start...

 

There are clearly defined camps. I my friend have learned through the years to remain Switzerland like. I look to neither garner favor with nor turn off groups, individuals are fair game.

 

Um.

 

Yeah, ok, newb. I'm sure the massive insight you've gained about these boards over the last six months has helped you come to these brilliant conclusions, my dear Junior Freud.

 

 

My problem with you in this matter is that you never seem to actually listen.

 

That's right.

 

Notice the word you chose there..."seem"....

 

Many, many, many people on this board do not bother to read AND comprehend what other people are saying. It's such an epidemic, it's become a board joke.

 

Unlike most people, and as several of the lawyers and law students can attest, I work very hard to not do that.

 

Make no mistake: sticking to a point and disagreeing with yours does not therefore mean that I am "not listening." I understood your point at first, and I understand it now.

 

I have never sold a single thing on these boards or anywhere else. I am solely a buyer. I have stated that I think Paypal is a fantastic service that helps both buyers and sellers immensely and as such should be compensated for their services. I also believe that individuals taking advantage of a particular policy is not a big issue, to me.

 

Yes, and that's the problem. You either cannot, or refuse to, understand that it's not just a "policy disagreement." Money is involved, and to deny someone money that is rightfully theirs....regardless of any other concern...is theft.

 

As a buyer I have no skin in the game. So in actuality, I'm an accessory to the theft. I am not gaining anything but rather helping to facilitate the theft?

 

You can truly sit there and say you see no distinction between using Paypal personal and Robojo?

So following your logic a jaywalker is the same as a pedophile. Both are breaking laws right?

 

 

Not at all!

 

Jaywalking is an entirely different activity than pedophilia. The only thing those two activities share in common is that they are both illegal. And not even jaywalking is illegal everywhere.

 

But whether you steal, as Robojo does, by not disclosing restoration...or whether you steal by sending personal payments to avoid fees....and make no mistake about it, if you SEND personal payments for the express purpose of the seller avoiding fees, you are just as guilty....it's still stealing. The activity is the same; the only difference is degree.

 

So as to try to gain back my lost respect by the numerous quality members I shall say if you truly think that way you are a rare breed. St. Peter is actually looking for a qualified scout I could put in a good word for you.

 

Once more...this isn't about me. It has nothing to do with me.

 

Those who want to do what is right will appreciate the information. Those who don't will mock and scorn, and do what they will do anyways. My goal is only to inform.

 

It is your

 

 

It is my what..?

[RockMyAmadeus]

Since it says "a", can i pay for 2 purchases with a personal payment. Surely in your black and white 0 room for interpretation world, that would not violate any sanctimonious paypal vows i have sworn.

 

 

Give it a rest.

 

You agreed to the terms. Whether you follow them or not is your choice, but the terms themselves are not unclear, nor is it "sanctimonious" to point that out.

 

You can always tell the ones who have problems following the rules....

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

You need a new closing statement. I swear you're going to wear this one out.

 

Oh, and for the record, i'm in agreement with you position on this whole thievery of paypal. (thumbs u

 

But I don't give a shet about paypal so......

 

You AGAIN?

 

I thought you'd had enough of a beating earlier.

 

[brasseye]

Unfortunately, a lot of people work at a job for years and get laid off and are also just as sh*t out of luck as they'd be if they tried to start their own business. Honestly, I'm not sure trying to start a sane business is any riskier than putting your trust in an employer not showing you the door and giving you 2 days severance and THEN telling unemployment you were fired for cause so their insurance premiums don't go up (and creating a nightmare for you to collect unemployment insurance).

 

ANyway, this is a side issue from paypal. I'm happy to see people nickel and dime their way out of paypal fees, but it will eventually kill the goose that lays those golden eggs and they'll get rid of the fee free options.

 

Wrong.

 

It's called market forces.

If a company has a bad business model, they will ineviatably go under, and get replaced by other companies. It's a perenial force of the market place.

 

Companies simply can't offer an over priced product, otherwise someone will come in under-cut you.

The only hold-up, are the particular set-up costs attached to that industry. In this case, they are substantial, so it could be a while yet

 

 

[Designer Toast]

PayPal is not going to file a complaint with law enforcement. If they did, any agency they called would laugh in their face and tell them it is a civil matter. Period. The thought of PayPal calling police in for someone using the personal payment option against their TOS is laughable at best, delusional at worst.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Speaking of crooks.

 

You do know your still on the PROBATION LIST,right?

 

Shame on you! That doesn't matter. They are clearly unrelated issues....

 

[Logan510]

Were there people here who really didn't understand PP's policies? My assumption was that people knew and those that don't follow their policies just don't care for whatever reason

[RockMyAmadeus]

PayPal is not going to file a complaint with law enforcement. If they did, any agency they called would laugh in their face and tell them it is a civil matter. Period. The thought of PayPal calling police in for someone using the personal payment option against their TOS is laughable at best, delusional at worst.

 

Ayup.

[the blob]

Like I said earlier, it is the idea, the niche, the vision that decides whether your business plan will win or lose. Not the money you have. The money always pours into a profitable idea.

 

The rest is just time, effort, sacrifice and hard work.

 

That is the reality of it.

 

Do you really think that everyone is born with good business sense? It's not something that can be taught. Anyone can force themselves to work harder or sacrifice more but not everyone can come up with a good business plan or handle the problems that occur within business very well.

 

They might be great within a job and be very talented in various fields but still not have the direction and instincts to succeed if they go it alone.

 

Also, if someone does enter into a profitable area as you say then they will always have to be good enough to compete with the others who will also be heading into this area. If there is a way to make money then there will be others doing the same. It's not always enough to put in time, effort, sacrifice and hard work, sometimes you actually have to be good at something as well or you still may not succeed.

 

I see too many immigrants come here with no education and just willing to bust their humps and build a life to really believe this. (Yes, i know, a lot of folks think they come here to collect a welfare check and while some do, many do not) Often they start their own business. This could be selling falafels and gyros out of a street vending cart or whatever. People who barely speak English. The in-laws of a friend came over from Hong Kong with no education, they still (after 40+ years here) speak about 35 words of English between them, started/owned their own restaurant (after scrimping and saving for years working in other restaurants) and also managed to own, at one point, several apartment buildings in Brooklyn (worth many millions now, but they sold most of them before the prices really jumped). The father-in-law even has some sort of social anxiety disorder to boot and gets freaked out in big crowds. Yet these folks managed to prosper, every kid went to college, etc. I really do think it's a matter of if there's a will there's a way, at least in the long-term. And yes, the kid's childhoods were tough. They basically all slept on a pull-out couch and all were expected to work in the restaurant as much as they could without hurting their grades. At night they would be frigging rolling dumplings at home for the restaurant the next day. A lot can be overcome through sacrifice and working to achieve long-term goals. The desire for instant gratification is what causes a lot of folks to fail.

 

 

[the blob]

Unfortunately, a lot of people work at a job for years and get laid off and are also just as sh*t out of luck as they'd be if they tried to start their own business. Honestly, I'm not sure trying to start a sane business is any riskier than putting your trust in an employer not showing you the door and giving you 2 days severance and THEN telling unemployment you were fired for cause so their insurance premiums don't go up (and creating a nightmare for you to collect unemployment insurance).

 

ANyway, this is a side issue from paypal. I'm happy to see people nickel and dime their way out of paypal fees, but it will eventually kill the goose that lays those golden eggs and they'll get rid of the fee free options.

 

Wrong.

 

It's called market forces.

If a company has a bad business model, they will ineviatably go under, and get replaced by other companies. It's a perenial force of the market place.

 

Companies simply can't offer an over priced product, otherwise someone will come in under-cut you.

The only hold-up, are the particular set-up costs attached to that industry. In this case, they are substantial, so it could be a while yet

 

 

And exactly which internet money transfer service would like to get into the fee free transaction business? what exactly is in it for them? unless they charge no fee, but hold your money for a week or whatever, thus getting an interest free float, there's nothing in it for them.

 

Anyway, sometimes I really do wonder about these so-called markets. For example, Microsoft is still in business. Given the utter krapola that is Vista, which I got snookered into getting on my laptap 2 or whatever years ago, Microsoft should be out of business. And yet they persist.

[brasseye]

Unfortunately, a lot of people work at a job for years and get laid off and are also just as sh*t out of luck as they'd be if they tried to start their own business. Honestly, I'm not sure trying to start a sane business is any riskier than putting your trust in an employer not showing you the door and giving you 2 days severance and THEN telling unemployment you were fired for cause so their insurance premiums don't go up (and creating a nightmare for you to collect unemployment insurance).

 

ANyway, this is a side issue from paypal. I'm happy to see people nickel and dime their way out of paypal fees, but it will eventually kill the goose that lays those golden eggs and they'll get rid of the fee free options.

 

Wrong.

 

It's called market forces.

If a company has a bad business model, they will ineviatably go under, and get replaced by other companies. It's a perenial force of the market place.

 

Companies simply can't offer an over priced product, otherwise someone will come in under-cut you.

The only hold-up, are the particular set-up costs attached to that industry. In this case, they are substantial, so it could be a while yet

 

 

And exactly which internet money transfer service would like to get into the fee free transaction business? what exactly is in it for them? unless they charge no fee, but hold your money for a week or whatever, thus getting an interest free float, there's nothing in it for them.

 

Anyway, sometimes I really do wonder about these so-called markets. For example, Microsoft is still in business. Given the utter krapola that is Vista, which I got snookered into getting on my laptap 2 or whatever years ago, Microsoft should be out of business. And yet they persist.

 

Free, when was the last time you got anything for free?

 

But the same service can be done for a lot less, like I said from the start PP mimics banks in their fee structure. But PP doesn't have a fraction of the costs/OH's of even the smallest of international banks.

They have no legal mandates governing them either, they are behoven to no authorities other than coporate jusrisdictions of Luxenbourg, and some other tax shelter.

It's a con of epic proportions, I just wish someone else would get in on the act, and give them some decent competiotion. Then like microsoft, ebay will see exactly how "proprietory" their slice of the internet really is.

[gaz973]

Lots of bollocks in this thread....

 

 

I will never post to or about RMA on these boards ever again.

 

I guess "never" = about a month.

 

Christ, you replied directly to my post. I'll ignore you if you just leave me to it but I'm damned if I'm gonna sit there and let you reply to me (and you know that you were inferring that I'm a victim based my posts, whether you admit it or not) and just take it.

 

Leave me alone and I'll leave you alone.