Would Captain Tripps' collection be more impressive if he didn't use pedigrees?

[fantastic_four]

Overall, the Western Penns are super high grade books but I don't know of any of the other early runs, such as Avengers, ASM, FF, DD (I have the 20 & it's a 9.8) or X-Men. Anyone out there have info. on these runs???

 

Forum member "linmoth" knows who the original owner of Western Penn is and probably where the early Marvels are, but he hasn't shared any details. Last time I talked to Mark Haspel about Western Penn, they hadn't graded any of the early Marvels except Daredevil #1 at CGC 8.5; I seem to recall him saying the earliest Spidey was #41 or so. Linmoth says they go back into the Golden Age...it'll be interesting to see if the owner of the early Silver stuff ever slabs them!

 

Do you think even half of the pre-1966 Silver pedigree issues have been slabbed yet? We talk a lot about how much primo unslabbed material is out there, but I still suspect the current early Silver CGC population counts might double just from having every known pedigreed copy slabbed. Aren't a lot of early FF Pacific Coasts still out there in the raw?

[burntboy]

Hey, Cap,

 

Really enjoying the backstory on how you put some of your runs together. Love hearing how you did it! You earned all the accolades you've gotten. Doesn't sound like it was a walk in the park.

 

Red

 

the info is cool, but just the concept of casually talking about this and that pedigree and all the 9.8's, 9.6's & 9.4's is just mindblowing. i just can't begin to fathom the value of this man's collection

[tth2]

tth2,

 

What's up, buddy? I'm glad you asked about the Western Penns. Unfortunately, I only have a few, but they are killer!!! Brulato has most of the TTA and Strange Tales runs, and they are better than any other pedigree for these early issues (mostly 9.6s with some 9.4s). It's ridiculous. The TTA 35 (9.6) & up are mostly 9.6 and the Strange Tales 101 (9.6) & up are also mostly 9.6. I used to own the S.T. 110 Western PA (it was originally a 9.4) but traded it to Brulato as part of the deal that got me the X-Men 1 9.6.

 

I also have the Western Penn TOS 40 (9.6) and I believe the 39 is ungraded but is absolutely killer. I had the TOS 46 (9.6) but Brulato has that now as well (that guy kills me). Plus, I have a few Sgt. Fury's which are all killer (4 9.4, 5 9.2, 7 9.4, 8 9.4 & 12 9.6) Overall, the Western Penns are super high grade books but I don't know of any of the other early runs, such as Avengers, ASM, FF, DD (I have the 20 & it's a 9.8) or X-Men. Anyone out there have info. on these runs???

 

But from what I've seen of this collection, its right up there with the best Silver Age collections, but below the Pac Coasts & Curators (unless more runs come out or are identified).

 

Tripps, you're a fountain of knowledge as always. I love these threads on pedigrees too! I knew Brulato's unbelievable ST run was built on Western Penns, but did not know about the TTAs.

 

Regarding other titles in the pedigree, I had the Western Penn DD 2-4, all graded out at 9.4. The #1 was sold raw on eBay about 5 years ago as NM/M by the person who would become Westernpacomics (part of the same auction I bought the #2), but I don't know whether it ever got slabbed or what grade it got. The DD 2 was seriously undergraded in my mind, but I didn't have the stamina to resub and ended up trading them for some DCs. I know one of the 9.4 DD 7s is the Western Penn copy, I'd assumed it was yours now since you've apparently been picking up a lot of the Chocolate Man's collection.

 

To add some more info to the collective consciousness on this pedigree, the Western Penn DCs are mindblowing. Most of the highest graded Flash in the Census so far are Western Penns, with many being 9.4 or higher (including 123 (9.4)), and almost everything from 138 and up being 9.6 or higher. I have yet to see Flash from PC or Curator show up, with the exception of the PC Flash 137 (9.6), which I have thus far been unsuccessful from extracting from Mr. Roter. The Western Penn B&B 34-36 are all 9.4, and Showcase 34-36 are 9.4, 9.6 and 9.6, respectively. The Hawkman run, which was put up on Heritage sometime ago, was stellar too, with most being 9.6 or higher.

 

Any further info on this pedigree or any others is always highly welcome!

[tth2]

It was only when I bought them directly from Roter, and he was apparently trying to make up for what he perceived as selling these original owner books too cheap in the first place (he's right, of course) did it become an expense.

 

Truer words have never been uttered!

[tth2]

Forum member "linmoth" knows who the original owner of Western Penn is and probably where the early Marvels are, but he hasn't shared any details.

 

Linmoth probably knows as much about the Western Penns as anyone, but he keeps his info very close to the vest!

 

Last time I talked to Mark Haspel about Western Penn, they hadn't graded any of the early Marvels except Daredevil #1 at CGC 8.5

 

To my knowledge DD 2-9 have all been graded, with 2, 3 and 4 all grading out as 9.4s (undergraded on the 2, in my opinion)

 

Do you think even half of the pre-1966 Silver pedigree issues have been slabbed yet? We talk a lot about how much primo unslabbed material is out there, but I still suspect the current early Silver CGC population counts might double just from having every known pedigreed copy slabbed. Aren't a lot of early FF Pacific Coasts still out there in the raw?

 

Agree with you there. There's a lot that still hasn't emerged from just the known pedigrees, particularly with respect to DC.

[Aman619]

Its comforting to know you had to work so hard, and traded nice copies for even nice ones and kept the cost down. Rather than just shell out a big check for them

 

BUT - - didnt you entertain the idea of just buying the better copies and doubling up? The intoxication of killer books is always hard to resist. I always want more and more..... Course if you put yours and his together in one room while doing the trades you were able to mix and match and end up with the best of each .

[Captain Tripps]

 

Unfortunately for me, the Pac Coasts that I traded for were not for sale. The omly way I was able to get him to agree to give up his DD 2 9.6 PC for my non-pedigree 9.4, his Avengers 3 9.6 PC for my 9.4, etc, etc (this all happened during our first trade back in Spring 2001) was to entice him with a Marvel key. So I used my JIM 83 9.4 to get his 9.2 and about 20 PC upgrades.

 

The next trade, appx 1 month later (I was hooked by now) I sold him my Hulk 1 9.2 and 3 9.2 (plus cash) for his AF 15 and also did a bunch more PC upgrades.

I remember driving home and my head was spinning!!

 

After everything was said and done, I got the Pacific Coast Avengers 1-15 from him, PC DD 2-15 (with a few missing, but I've tracked them all down) PC X-Men 1-21, ASM 2-14 (few missing, found all but 6 9.8 which Brulato has) and FF 10, 45, 52 & 53 and Strange Tales 110.

 

The X-Men 1 9.6 I gave him was the original copy sold over the internet (white pages) and got back his 9.6 (ow to w) he got from Roter in his 1-20 purchase.

 

Looking back, he got some great books out of it (plus some cash for the AF 15), but I'm happy I wound up with all those Pacific Coasts. Plus, I bought back a lot of books from him in the past year and change (Hulk 1 9.2, 4 9.4) and was able to track down another JIM 83.

 

He's a great guy and I still speak with him and I really owe him a lot for helping me build my early runs into what they are now.

[PUNYHUMAN]

I love hearing about these Pedigree Collections!!!!"stories" Keep 'em coming!!!! The history of the books I always find fascinating!!!

[Captain Tripps]

Punyhuman,

 

Thanks for the post. I've got so many pedigree stories you wouldn't believe. What immediately comes to mind are the runs of books I purchased through Marnin Rosenberg called the Slobodian Collection (from collector Calvin Slobodian of Canada). Unfortunately, this pedigree is not recognized by CGC. I got these books in Spring 1998 and they were killer. I've sold/traded most of them but still have the FF 4, which is a 9.6 white pages. The FF run alone was mind boggling: 1 9.2 (there's a rumor this was upgraded to 9.4 but I don't know for sure) 2 9.2 (I'm pretty sure this one was subsequently upgraded) 3 8.5, 4 9.6, 5 9.4!! The higher numbers were nice as well but these really stick out. REmember, these I bought raw and were subsequently graded.

 

There was also a great run of Spideys. I still have the 28 (9.6), 35 (9.6) 36(9.4), 37 (9.4), 39 & 40 (9.6).

 

Overall, an awesome collection that should be recognized as a true pedigree. This really brings back memories, driving to Marnin's apartment and coming away with these killer books. Thanks for taking me back!!

 

There wer

[Captain Tripps]

Hook,

 

Thanks for the post. BTW, that invitation for cold beer and Avengers is still open. Boy, the pedigree type stories I could tell you after a few beers!!

 

Keep in touch.

 

Doug

[sckao]

Hook,

 

Thanks for the post. BTW, that invitation for cold beer and Avengers is still open. Boy, the pedigree type stories I could tell you after a few beers!!

 

Keep in touch.

 

Doug

 

Great stuff! Very interesting reading.

 

By the way, how do you feel about the possibility of upgrading your collection via some professional pressing (which doesn't count as restoration?)

 

If it's possible to get a 9.6 to a 9.8 out of one of your existing copies, would you do it?

 

We've already seen that it's possible to get to a 9.6 from a 9.4, etc. Is the goal about attaining the highest graded copies in existence or just to have a run above a certain minimum grade? (You've already mentioned upgrading to higher grades.)

 

(I apologize if this subject has been brought up before.)

 

I have to admit that I look at some of my high grade stuff now and wonder...

[Captain Tripps]

sckao,

 

Thanks for your input. Although I do not believe that pressing is restoration, I'm a little hesitant to try and screw around with a book if it's already a very high grade. You never know what could happen in transit or during the pressing process, etc. where your book can be damaged.

 

I think pressing is most suited for a VF or VF+, that is otherwise killer except for a small ding/impact/wave in the book that can be ameliorated simply by it being flattened. I don't think pressing is geared to make a 9.4 into a 9.6 or 9.6 into a 9.8 but I know it has been done.

 

BTW, this has been a great thread discussing the various pedigrees. It would be cool to have a different thread for each different pedigree and get peoples' insight, knowledge and thoughts about that particular pedigree. Because I'm primarily interested in Marvels, I would have more input into Silver Age Marvel pedigrees, but used to collect horror books and bought many horror pedigree books as well.

 

Anybody have any ideas where to start??

[Red Hook]

Will do!

 

Have you ever owned any Green Rivers.....not a top of the line ped, but interesting, IMO.

[Captain Tripps]

Hook,

 

I've owned a bunch of Green Rivers (all DDs and Avengers between 20 and 40, appx 15-20 issues). Real nice books with the red-colored ink date stamp on cover, usually white pages and never less than ow to w. I sold or traded all of them prior to CGC.

 

For some reason, I never got Green Rivers on other titles. I'm sure they exist. I"ll bet that one or two people have the run themselves as I've never seen individual issues on other titles for sale. Harley Yee comes to mind when talking about Green Rivers.

 

Coincidentally, someone just offered me Avengers 24 & 26 Green River (both white pages) and DD 22 Green River, also white pages. Sure enough, thet all have the red date stamp on the front cover. I might buy them for inventory as they're beautiful books.

 

Keep those pedigrees comig!!!

[PUNYHUMAN]

Harley does sell them,I've seen them in his catalogues. How many books were in the green River Collection, & when were they found ,what year? what state?

[PUNYHUMAN]

Also while were on the subject of pedigrees ,do you guys know anything about the Ohio & Circle 8 pedigrees Any info would be welcomed!!!

[fantastic_four]

Harley does sell them,I've seen them in his catalogues. How many books were in the green River Collection, & when were they found ,what year? what state?

 

John Hauser bought the ones from the brother who died over a decade ago--the one who was investigated for the Green River murders, and John gave the collection the "Green River" designation shortly after he realized the books he bought were from the suspected killer. I believe he bought them around 1992/1993 from the lawyer of the original owner in Spokane, Washington. Forum member "sckao" has a web site with the complete list; click here to read a previous thread about Green River or click here for a direct link to the complete list .

 

William Stevens and his half-brother were the sons of a drug store owner, and their dad would bring them unsold copies from the store. The brother who is still alive may still have some of the books, although I know someone did buy at least some of them. That could be where Harley got some of his.

 

John Hauser told me he still owns the early Spideys with bullet holes in them! He said it's rather interesting to own books with a bullet hole from a suspected serial killer.

[lou_fine]

Captain;

 

Certainly enjoy hearing all of your stories about how you manage to put together your high grade perdigree Silver run. Being primarily a GA collector myself, I still remember all the first hand stories I heard from collectors who put some of their GA pedigree runs together. Good stuff.

 

I just had a question with respect to collectors who are putting some of these high grade SA pedigree runs together....have they ever thought of putting some high grade GA runs together? If not, which of the following is the reason:

 

1) SA collector with absolutely no interest in the GA books

2) SA books provides the potential for the best return and ease of reselling

3) HG SA pedigree books readily available in the marketplace and able to put runs together relatively easy given some time and money

4) Too expensive to put runs of GA books together and no point starting something that you can't complete

5) rarity of GA books making it virtually impossible to complete any runs (eg. frustration of waiting years in order to even see certain books show up in the marketplace)

6) many GA books do not exist in high grade and not interested in collecting non-high grade books (ie. in less than 9.4 condition)

7) some combination of the above

8) other reason not listed above

 

Love to hear from you with respect to the above. Either way, keep your pedigree stories coming because these are the type of stories which makes this hobby so much fun.

[fantastic_four]

I just had a question with respect to collectors who are putting some of these high grade SA pedigree runs together....have they ever thought of putting some high grade GA runs together? If not, which of the following is the reason:

 

2) and 4). 6) is a bit disconcerting also but not enough to stop me from trying. I'd rather focus on getting the best in one age than branching out to multiple ones.

 

It's also because I like the Marvel heroes from the Silver Age better than the ones from the Golden Age. Superman and Batman appeal to me, but not as much as Spidey and the FF. Superman is too powerful and is hard to create villains for; Batman is much better since he's mortal but the GA books are really campy and goofy. I don't like Batman much until he gets to the Neal Adams/Frank Miller phases.

 

I may eventually go after an EC run.

[tth2]

I just had a question with respect to collectors who are putting some of these high grade SA pedigree runs together....have they ever thought of putting some high grade GA runs together? If not, which of the following is the reason:

 

1) SA collector with absolutely no interest in the GA books

2) SA books provides the potential for the best return and ease of reselling

3) HG SA pedigree books readily available in the marketplace and able to put runs together relatively easy given some time and money

4) Too expensive to put runs of GA books together and no point starting something that you can't complete

5) rarity of GA books making it virtually impossible to complete any runs (eg. frustration of waiting years in order to even see certain books show up in the marketplace)

6) many GA books do not exist in high grade and not interested in collecting non-high grade books (ie. in less than 9.4 condition)

7) some combination of the above

8) other reason not listed above

 

For me, it's 1 (except Ducks), 4 & 6 (although I'm not convinced that all early DC silver exist in 9.4 or above either)