Why isn't Jim Shooter more popular with Marvel fanboys?

[synch]

Don't really care about these types of guys unless they are ones that kill off a book I am reading I suppose

 

[Hepcat]

By "these types of guys" do you mean editors? If so, you should. That's where the vision for every title begins.Editors aren't an "encombrance". They're a key factor for success.

 

[shadroch]

Seems to me that Shooter is being blamed for a lot of stuff that happened either before he took over, or after he left.

The endless crossover and mutants on every corner was under Tom Defalco, not Shooter.

Before Shooter took over, Editor in Chief had become a revolving door, with some lasting only a few months. In 1975/1976 they went thru four different guys. Books were half advertising, the letter pages had disappeared and reprints were rampant.

Avengers had four issues in less than a year that were not the intended story- including a much advertised 150th Anniversary issue.

Shooter grew the company from one that had sold for some sixteen million to one worth well over one hundred million.

He was far from perfect, but he is being blamed for things he had nothing to do with.

[Hepcat]

Shooter grew the company from one that had sold for some sixteen million to one worth well over one hundred million.

 

And would that not be the bottom line right there?

 

[Prince Namor]

Shooter grew the company from one that had sold for some sixteen million to one worth well over one hundred million.

 

And would that not be the bottom line right there?

 

 

Yes. It would. Which is why some fanboys have a problem with him.

He saw the bottom line as the most important thing.

 

[MCJ]

Seems to me that Shooter is being blamed for a lot of stuff that happened either before he took over, or after he left.

The endless crossover and mutants on every corner was under Tom Defalco, not Shooter.

Before Shooter took over, Editor in Chief had become a revolving door, with some lasting only a few months. In 1975/1976 they went thru four different guys. Books were half advertising, the letter pages had disappeared and reprints were rampant.

Avengers had four issues in less than a year that were not the intended story- including a much advertised 150th Anniversary issue.

Shooter grew the company from one that had sold for some sixteen million to one worth well over one hundred million.

He was far from perfect, but he is being blamed for things he had nothing to do with.

 

My bad--Defalco is the one I should be shaking my fist at for the mutant population explosion, thanks for the correction.

 

As for the title cancellations, any editor would cut the bottom performing titles, not just Shooter...

[Phicks]

I don't think you can accuse Marvel in the late 1970s and early 1980s as having deadline problems....certainly not compared to the current state of affairs! From all that I have read, Shooter personally alienated a lot of creators. Reportedly, he sent out a memo shortly after becoming EIC that said "Our job is to create good comics. For some of you, this will mean a complete change in how you do things."

 

As an editor, Shooter was unable to explain how or why to change things. A good editor listens to a story pitch, or looks at pencilled artwork, and then constructively says change __ because ___. Gene Colan gave an interview about Shooter's directions for changes to his art being the reason Gene went over to DC. The requested changes were meaningless.

 

John Byrne is no fan of Shooter. But Byrne has said that Shooter came into the EIC job, and changed a lot of things that needed changing with a fairly blunt attitude. The problem is, after that mission was accomplished, he just kept on changing things for the sake of change.

[MCJ]

Or he was changing things in an attempt to increase sales

 

He did apparently alienate several creators in the process, though. Not a winning strategy if the end result was an exodus to DC...and later on, Dark Horse.

[fastballspecial]

Shooter grew the company from one that had sold for some sixteen million to one worth well over one hundred million.

 

And would that not be the bottom line right there?

 

 

Yes. It would. Which is why some fanboys have a problem with him.

He saw the bottom line as the most important thing.

 

Yeah he didnt have some of the greatest Marvel storylines under his tenure at all.

It was a business do they not get that? Any other editors that went to run 2 successful companies?

 

[Prince Namor]

Shooter grew the company from one that had sold for some sixteen million to one worth well over one hundred million.

 

And would that not be the bottom line right there?

 

 

Yes. It would. Which is why some fanboys have a problem with him.

He saw the bottom line as the most important thing.

 

Yeah he didnt have some of the greatest Marvel storylines under his tenure at all.

It was a business do they not get that? Any other editors that went to run 2 successful companies?

 

Fair point, so I'll try to explain my own personal feeling on it.

Yes, it IS a business.

But I don't read comics to learn about business.

And the business that Jim Shooter conducted during his time at Marvel led me right out of comics. I found most of it to be insipid garbage.

So I hold it against him.

He can be as successful as he wants.

Don't care.

I just want good comics.

 

(I don't dislike him personally, as I don't know him personally, or altogether professionally. This is just in regards to his time as Marvel's top gun.

I'd like to also add that many of the creator's I personally admire have probably solidified my position on this because of how they felt they were done unfairly in their time under his leadership.)

 

 

[Logan510]

I have read several creators of that era say that Marvel was doing a lot of good stuff then not because of Shooter, but in spite of Shooter.

[shadroch]

Under Shooter-

The direct market flourished.

The limited series was created

The Graphic Novel became a regular event, not a once every couple of years thing.

Ditto for the reprint trade paperback.

Marvel worked with its distributors and comic shops in a way none of his successors did.

Marvel created the industries first royality program for creators.

Marvel introduced Epic, the first creator owned comic line that achieved major distribution.

Every artist and every writer got paid in full for everything they did.Doesn't sound like much, but it was a vast improvement over some of his predecessors.

While far from perfect, Shooter did more to see that original artwork was returned to the artist than every EIC before him combined.

From a fans point of view- he eliminated the wildly_fanciful_statement reprints that Marvel kept using whenever a deadline was missed, eliminated some ad pages in favor of more stories, brought a truly international cast of characters to the Marvel Universe,and oversaw the successful revivals of X-Men, Daredevil,and Thor- titles that had sucked for many years.

[shadroch]

I don't think you can accuse Marvel in the late 1970s and early 1980s as having deadline problems....certainly not compared to the current state of affairs!

 

I don't read todays Marvels. Are they missing 25% of their deadlines and publishing reprints instead as Marvel did on The Avengers. Four reprint/fill in issues in a single year

[Hawkman]

Reportedly, he sent out a memo shortly after becoming EIC that said "Our job is to create good comics. For some of you, this will mean a complete change in how you do things.

 

 

I hope this is true. Blunt, honest, and hilarious. Any writer at the time offended by this probably wasn't very good.

[Lazyboy]

I don't think you can accuse Marvel in the late 1970s and early 1980s as having deadline problems....certainly not compared to the current state of affairs!

 

I don't read todays Marvels. Are they missing 25% of their deadlines and publishing reprints instead as Marvel did on The Avengers. Four reprint/fill in issues in a single year

No, they're missing 50% of their deadlines and just delaying the release rather than using reprints.

[Jeffro.]

New Universe.

 

 

Add in both the Secret Wars mess & the unreadable Secret Wars 2.

 

Overrated.

 

Hey, Hey, HEY! Watch it buddy!

 

Apologies, on second thought Secret Wars concept actually held my interest until the first issue came out.

 

Secret Wars was a fanboys dream comic.

 

SWII was an unreadable mess with horrific artwork.

[Jeffro.]

Shooter grew the company from one that had sold for some sixteen million to one worth well over one hundred million.

 

And would that not be the bottom line right there?

 

 

Yes. It would. Which is why some fanboys have a problem with him.

He saw the bottom line as the most important thing.

 

I'll take the Shooter-era coherent (for the most part), continuity driven Marvel universe any day of the week and twice on Sunday over the sad mess that it is today.

[shadroch]

Mike Zeck was supposed to do SW2 and bailed at such a late date that the only artist they could find that could do the work quick enough was Al Milgrom. With all the tie ins it had, they couldn't be late. i've seen some of the pencils and they are actually a bit better than the finished product. The inker did Milgrom no favors on this job.

[ComicConnoisseur]

I have read several creators of that era say that Marvel was doing a lot of good stuff then not because of Shooter, but in spite of Shooter.

Who?

Was it Roy Thomas who made a living rewriting Robert E Howard and Stan Lee stories?

Was it Gary Groth and his anti-mainstream comics agenda ?

I want names.

A lot of the suspects who didn`t like Shooter turned out to all have their own agendas as well. When we dig deeper we will find that none of these suspects smelled like roses.

[nickwire]

New Universe.

 

 

Add in both the Secret Wars mess & the unreadable Secret Wars 2.

 

Overrated.

 

Hey, Hey, HEY! Watch it buddy!

 

Apologies, on second thought Secret Wars concept actually held my interest until the first issue came out.

 

Secret Wars was a fanboys dream comic.

 

SWII was an unreadable mess with horrific artwork.

 

agree totally. SW was the most anticipated book at the time. every kid couldnt wait to see where it waas going