LIEFELD vs NEAL ADAMS (w/poll)

[hockey&comicsguy]

It does seem that the people that hate Liefeld most have several thousand of his comics

 

I probably have three, read maybe ten when I was a kid. I am definitely not in the market for any of his comics, don't think I ever really was except for early on in the New Mutants run when I was in elementary school

Some of us that were already adults during the New Mutant days thought we'd get rich off these books, so we bought into the speculation and purchased many copies. I'll admit, for myself anyway, that is partly why I "hate" him. Sure it's my fault for not thinking, but it doesn't change the fact that his art sux.

 

...I think alot of that stuff in the 90's was pure garbage. That said, I don't judge people by what they did 20 years ago. Based on the sketches shown in this thread, I would say he's quite talented. To say he sux? I don't know. I'd say he's better than you or I or anybody else I know. The guy is talented enough that to say he sux sort of reminds me of saying he's the worst player on a professional sports team. He might not be the greatest ever but he's good enough to be in the game.

[Annihilus]

 

I'm sure he's a nice guy and the Mary Marvel sketch is an enjoyable one.

 

That doesn't make up for helping to destroy the comics industry in the 90's with over-hyped bad art and driving me away from the hobby for ten years.

 

Were you forced at gunpoint to buy his books? Maybe you had bad taste in comics? Why is it just a Liefeld "problem"? Perhaps you need to engage in a little introspection.

 

In this case, it's a Liefeld problem because he's the subject of this thread.

 

I just introspected this morning and find that I feel the same Maybe if you have the name of a good psychiatrist, I can see if they can excise those years from my brain. It'd be totally worth the cost.

 

I actually didn't buy any of his books back when they came out. It was because of him and Erik Larsen that I quit buying books altogether. I picked up some longboxes of his crud by default when I bought a collection about ten years ago, but it wasn't by choice, I'll tell you that.

 

As I mentioned earlier, it's not just a Liefeld problem for me. His stuff was just the worstest of the bunch.

[comix4fun]

So all you folks that loooooove Liefeld please PM me. I've got a couple longboxes of his krap that I haven't been able to give away for 10 years that I'd like to sell you. I'd be willing to bet that I couldn't get a buck a piece for those books if I was set up right next to those ten mile long lines that Liefeld has at the cons that everyone is raving about.

 

As much as Adams's Batman Odyssey sucked (it was absolute rubbish), there is not one Liefeld book I would spend money on before I would pick up extra copies of Odyssey.

 

Although I'm sure he's a very nice guy, my God I hate what Rob Liefeld helped do to comics. IMO he doesn't get enough blame. He can take his long lines and shove them up his .

 

Ok, Just to be fair, Erik Larsen should take some of the blame too.

 

Assuming I fall into your category of "folks that loooooove Liefeld," I must say I come at it from the comfortable place of neither owning nor having read a single comic of his. Until I met him, the only exposure I had was that "40 worst..." site. Perversely, it was the site that brought me to him, and once I saw how pleasant he was to talk to, the Mary Marvel commission was a no-brainer.

 

I'm sure he's a nice guy and the Mary Marvel sketch is an enjoyable one.

 

That doesn't make up for helping to destroy the comics industry in the 90's with over-hyped bad art and driving me away from the hobby for ten years.

 

Actually people should be blaming the publishers for what happened to comics in the 90's along with peoples greed. Not just a couple of artists.

 

 

You do realize that when Rob joined in forming Image he became a publisher along with those other couple of artists, right?

[COI]

I've been over that '40 worst...' page a bunch of times, and it's all hilarious. I also got this at a show this year:

 

 

Liefeld was totally approachable, seemed like a happy enough fellow, and was totally jazzed to be asked for a drawing of a character other than Deadpool.

 

Talking to Neal Adams is also pretty cool, but it feels a lot more like doing business (which I suppose it is after all). This head sketch, deeply discounted on the last day of the '10 NYCC, cost as much as the Mary Marvel above.

 

 

That Liefeld piece is pretty nice.

[the blob]

I've been over that '40 worst...' page a bunch of times, and it's all hilarious. I also got this at a show this year:

 

 

Liefeld was totally approachable, seemed like a happy enough fellow, and was totally jazzed to be asked for a drawing of a character other than Deadpool.

 

Talking to Neal Adams is also pretty cool, but it feels a lot more like doing business (which I suppose it is after all). This head sketch, deeply discounted on the last day of the '10 NYCC, cost as much as the Mary Marvel above.

 

 

I'm surprised the Liefield sketch was anywhere near the Adams sketch unless Adams went WAYYYYY down from the usual ridiculous $300 he asks for these things

 

(seriously, I paid $200 or less for a Kirby Captain Victory page (ok, not the greatest page in kirbydom, but I wanted to own something from him) and a Starlin Omac page from the 70's (which actually is a pretty nice page) not too long ago...$300 for a head sketch, ouch!)

 

here's the thing, doesn't adams charge for everything and then some (including autographs, putting aisde signature series))...liefield doesn't have the chutzpah for that, does he?

 

thing is liefield CAN draw stuff that doesn't look ridiculous, but, alas, for a solid 5-10 years there he chose not to

[the blob]

Honestly, I'm surprised Liefield is a draw at all. His recent work on comics has kindah fallen flat (yes, Adams Odyssey wasn't a huge hit either, other than the first 1 or 2 issues, many of which wound up in the cheap box) sales-wise it seems and he is so despised. And he is so despised. I'd think many of his fans from 1990 are out of comics entirely, having burned burned by the speculation boom and having left with a sour taste in their mouths re: comics. Yes, he created Deadpool*, but how many Deadpool issues did he actually draw and did he really have the character long enough before forming Image to really develop him into what he is now?

 

I'll admit I buy Liefield's pre-NM 100 stuff out of the 50 cent box if it is in nice shape. I kind of like the way they look, mostly.

 

* Heck, Herb Trimpe helped create Wolverine and that poor guy had a real tough time financially for a long time and would come to local shows here in NYC in the 90's/early 2000's and nobody would be on line and he'd chat with you for half an hour and do sketches and what not (I think for free half the time).

[hockey&comicsguy]

No doubt that a lot of people think his stuff was junk.

 

But people constantly harping on the guy as if he can't draw or has no ability to draw even remotely "good" work is kind of comical to me. I'd love to see those folks drawings. I'm sure they're the bomb.

 

And always we go back to what happened in the 90's. You know, MC hammer pants used to be in style too. There's something to be said for maybe why his work looked the way it did back then and it might not just be wholly a reflection of the extent of his ability and might have something to do with the style of the times as just about every artist from that era will tell you. Jim Lee is on record saying he drew things that were awful simply b/c that was what was popular at the time and not necessarily a reflection of the best of his ability or necessarily how the artist wanted to draw. I'd liken it to actors who sign on to awful films with atrocious scripts for reasons outside of what they truly want their work to say about them, especially early in their careers.

 

I also love that people constantly post that image of Captain America. Not once have I ever seen anybody even mention that that particular piece could very well have just been done with the full intent of having it look exaggerated and ridiculous. I hardly doubt, given the man's obvious ability to draw, that he was going for a realistic depiction with that piece. What seems more likely: That he drew that Cap piece exactly as he intended to make it look? Or that it looks the way it does b/c he has no ability to draw and that's the best Cap drawing he was capable of? My guess is it's the former of the two choices.

 

I'll give the man credit. There's enough of his stuff out there to to confirm that he's capable of doing what only a very small percentage of people can ever do at a level that they can do it for a living. Do I think the man can draw? Absolutely yes. Is he the greatest penciler ever, not in my mind. Is he the worst? I don't think so.

 

Many will say he's the worst artist of the time or even ever. Really? Were people really blown away by the 90's greatness of Joe Madureira and John Romita Jr. on some of their X-men stuff? I sure as hell wasn't.

 

I guess it'd be fair to say he's could be the worst of the most popular artists of that era. AKA the guy who finished last in his class at medical school. Who by the way goes by the name of Doctor.

[MR SigS]

It's a shame to hear that ADAMS is like this, but it makes sense doesn't it? ADAMS is a legend who didn't make money in his time from I understand, and LIEFELD, a babe in comparison, is loaded. I can understand why NEAL is somewhat jaded and looking to make every penny possible. I think he's earned it. (thumbs u

 

[TeddieMercede]

What happened to that Batman Odyssey series ? Did it get canceled ?

[MR SigS]

...I think alot of that stuff in the 90's was pure garbage. That said, I don't judge people by what they did 20 years ago. Based on the sketches shown in this thread, I would say he's quite talented. To say he sux? I don't know. I'd say he's better than you or I or anybody else I know. The guy is talented enough that to say he sux sort of reminds me of saying he's the worst player on a professional sports team. He might not be the greatest ever but he's good enough to be in the game.

 

I may be patting my self on the back, but I think my unfinished sketches are better than his finished comic art. My women look like women, anyway. If I had the patience to draw everyday, I feel it's possible that I'd be sitting behind those tables in front of those lines. But I don't have the patience, so I'm not. My fault.

Honestly, I think his success is based on timing. If he were new today I don't think he'd make it (if he put out the same work he did in X-Force). I believe McFarlane opened the door for guys like him. My

 

[hockey&comicsguy]

Nice artwork. I might be mixing up the people but I once saw a video about becoming a comic artist. I can't recall if it was Marc Silvestri or Michael Turner...anyway, somebody like that. They said that they go to countless shows and whatnot in searching for new talent and they see lots of people who can draw, and lots of people who can draw very realistic looking figures. THAT SAID, the artist said that what they were primarily looking for was for people with technical skill but ALSO a very distinct STYLE. That was the emphasis. That the prospective artist not look like a Jim Lee clone or a Turner clone, etc....but that they had a definitive style that was something their own and that stood out.

 

Look at Turner's stuff. He's very popular. Look at his women. Are they "realistic" looking?

[the blob]

I dunno about that, there are plenty of folks who kindah look similar...there are like 5-10 who seem to be turner clones at least.

 

one would think that someone who does really good looking illustration would get a second look even if not "stylized"

 

but the thing is, you need to be able to crank out 20 pages a month to be employed. and i'm guessing maybe it's a lot less than a month because the stuff needs to go to print, needs to be scripted before you start drawing, etc. and some stuff is going to get sent back because it's not what the publisher is looking for/needs to be tweaked, etc.

 

and an artist nees to be able to have figures working in motion...not just the "pose" or "flex" shot that will work well on a cover.

 

that half a hulk looks great, but how long did it take? can you do 70 of those over the course of 20 pages of comic, plus backgrounds, other characters, all in different poses where you need to figure out the proportions and anatomy and such (of course, liefield didn't bother with those pesky details, but I digress), figure out word balloons, how the pages will be paid out, etc. and get it back to the publisher before a 2-3 week deadline?

 

that's the difference between someone who can crank out a cool pin-up or cover once or twice a month and someone who can actually illustrate a monthly comic and find steady work in this ever shrinking industry

[the blob]

"Look at Turner's stuff. He's very popular. Look at his women. Are they "realistic" looking?"

 

Realistic as in who might be sitting next to me on the subway or are they within the realm of possible? They're idealized/perfect, but there are women with bodies like that. (I'm sure there are some turner drawings that are not, but I just did a little search to refresh me on what his stuff looks like). There are no women on earth that look like the Liefieldian freakazoids. Turner's faces are a bit elvish sometimes though.

[Annihilus]

"Look at Turner's stuff. He's very popular. Look at his women. Are they "realistic" looking?"

 

Realistic as in who might be sitting next to me on the subway or are they within the realm of possible? They're idealized/perfect, but there are women with bodies like that. (I'm sure there are some turner drawings that are not, but I just did a little search to refresh me on what his stuff looks like). There are no women on earth that look like the Liefieldian freakazoids. Turner's faces are a bit elvish sometimes though.

 

[MR SigS]

but the thing is, you need to be able to crank out 20 pages a month to be employed. and i'm guessing maybe it's a lot less than a month because the stuff needs to go to print, needs to be scripted before you start drawing, etc. and some stuff is going to get sent back because it's not what the publisher is looking for/needs to be tweaked, etc.

Maybe that's why Liefeld was always late. He'd wait until the last second to turn in rushed work, forcing his publishers to use what he submitted, leaving them no time to refuse it.

 

and an artist nees to be able to have figures working in motion...not just the "pose" or "flex" shot that will work well on a cover.

That's Liefeld in a nutshell

 

that half a hulk looks great, but how long did it take? can you do 70 of those over the course of 20 pages of comic, plus backgrounds, other characters, all in different poses where you need to figure out the proportions and anatomy and such (of course, liefield didn't bother with those pesky details, but I digress), figure out word balloons, how the pages will be paid out, etc. and get it back to the publisher before a 2-3 week deadline?

Nope. That's my problem. I don't have that kind of patience or training. These sketches take me days (not ALL day, but on my breaks and such) to do. I think that's another reason I grow bored with them. Working on the same thing for that long. If I had applied myself earlier in life, I would have pursued a career in comics. Doesn't mean I would have made it though, not in MARVEL anyway. My style isn't "comic bookish" enough I think.

 

that's the difference between someone who can crank out a cool pin-up or cover once or twice a month and someone who can actually illustrate a monthly comic and find steady work in this ever shrinking industry

I'll read Silvestri over Liefeld ANY DAY. Liefeld's work (20 pages) really looks like it was done all in an hour.

I don't read or buy new comics so I'm not too familiar with Turner's work. I own a 9.8 ASM #568 slab. The cover is all I've seen.

 

And thanks for the compliment on my snail-paced sketches

[This is water]

Adams all the way. He has always been one of my favorites.

 

But I think people can be a little harsh on Liefield. He's not a talentless hack by any means. His art just reaches out towards a different type of reader. Also, some of his sketches are pretty sick. He is a very personal fellow.

 

It's almost cool for people to hate on Liefield now without even taking the time to truly form their own opinion. His art isn't conventional but it works in the context it is placed.

 

 

 

[This is water]

What happened to that Batman Odyssey series ? Did it get canceled ?

 

I believe it is on a hiatus.

 

I enjoyed it. I don't know why people hate on it so much.

[faster friends]

What happened to that Batman Odyssey series ? Did it get canceled ?

 

I believe it is on a hiatus.

 

I enjoyed it. I don't know why people hate on it so much.

 

Bummer. I was enjoying it also.

[songsaboutclouds]

What happened to that Batman Odyssey series ? Did it get canceled ?

 

BATMAN: ODYSSEY VOL. 2 #1

Written by NEAL ADAMS

Art and cover by NEAL ADAMS

1:10 B&W variant cover by NEAL ADAMS

On sale OCTOBER 19 • 1 of 7, 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T

Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. See the Previews order form for more information.

BATMAN: ODYSSEY is back in a new volume from legendary writer/artist Neal Adams!

It’s finally happened: Batman must kill or be killed. The threat is real and can’t be stopped by man or hero. To combat it, Batman must bring time itself to a standstill so that he can embark on an odyssey of self-discovery to a place unknown to mankind, where he can find himself. But is this a place where only failure awaits?

[comix4fun]

 

It's almost cool for people to hate on Liefield now without even taking the time to truly form their own opinion. His art isn't conventional but it works in the context it is placed.

 

 

 

 

 

And that context more often than not takes place on a planet where there are crevices every 5 feet or so for which the characters to stick their feet, obscuring them from view.