Phantom Lady 17

[Darthdiesel]

Why no word for NOSTO? It is a great, did i say, FREE, site.

 

It has been brought up on the boards in the past, but in an unfavorable light if I recall. It came up as a peripheral issue in the thread discussing what type of guide (a guide based on eBay sales, Wizard, OS, the site with a comic "stock market" type ticker, Comicspriceguide,etc.) would be best for comic collectors. Nostomania was briefly mentioned and I think the verdict was: the prices were more out of whack than Wizard's...

 

I believe I've seen some recent 30 cent variant auctions quoting Nostomania prices for them and I can honestly say based on my research of prices attained and what I and several dealers have sold/sell them for, the Nosto prices are off...but that is not surprising. There is no current guide with a "good" handle on 30/35 cent variant prices. Nor do I think there will ever be, due to volatility of the genre.

[sfilosa]

Now here is my price thoughts...if the 8.5's are solid at 8K...the 9.0 should be double that or 16K and because it is the finest known add a % premium of say 4k...so whoever has the PL 17 should not sell for less than 20k.

 

Have to disagree.

 

Here's why:

 

I have thought about this regarding very-high grade Golden-Age books. Most GA collectors who really want a book, will want it in HIGH-GRADE (but not necessarily need the ultimate high-grade copy). They are NOT as driven by the LABEL factor as Silver-Age and more current book collectors are.

 

In other words, they might want to pay $8K for a HIGH-GRADE Phantom Lady #17. That might be the top limit (or close to) what they want to pay. The fact that it is an 8.5,9.0,9.2, etc. is not as big of a deal to them, as much as getting a VERY NICE copy.

 

Said another way if there is a book I want for $400 in 8.5, how much would I pay for a 9.4 (assuming there are no other copies graded between 9.0-9.4). I might only pay $500-600. I will be happy with the 8.5, and would have no intention of paying $2,000 for the 9.4 (which would be a Silver-Age type muliple).

[blackterror]

what you're saying is that you will settle for second place, and second best, or one of the best. What I am talking about is not second...but first. The best, the finest, the supreme, the one, the only, the fact is many will be happy with second...either because they must be or that's their preference. In general, I thin people settle only when they have to.

 

 

If I offered you the best of any book for free or the second best would second best be your first choice. Now why do you buy second best because you have to...and so you don't take me as some prideful pompous fool...so do I. But I also know there are those who don't have to settle for second best...and so they don't.

 

Case in point if we could all afford high speed cable we would have it, but since it costs so much more, dial up can get the job done...but this still doesn't make high speed cost the same as dial up. No there is a massive premium.

 

And the question still begs...if the 9.0 Phantom Lady were yours...seriously now...what price would you accept for your book...if you had to sell. Would you sell for the OS 6k? How about the 8.5 price Heritage got of 8k. You wrote as a buyer that you would buy the 9.0 for the same price as the 8.5's if I read you correctly. But understand...there are three best only collectors...they will pay, up to whatever the rape point is...they won't pay a million for example as some will right now for Action 1....are you sure 8k is all you want...and is that even fair or would you be raped for selling it so low?

 

Anyway...are you saying my price of 20 would be ridiculous...or the 50k rape price...

 

Let's here your numbers if the book were yours...here are mine

 

15k and below the seller is being raped

 

20k a price that is fair for the buyer and seller

 

more than 50 k the buyer is being raped.

 

Oh, another thought...Action 1 is the undeniable king of it's genre and all comics...hence a million for the best known...not the label but a miliion or more for the the best ...

 

Phantom Lady is the King...make that queen of her genre....good girl art...with that thought in mind...perhaps 100k would be a better price for the best...the best example of the best good girl art of them all.

 

What say you ... if it were yours?

[Crowzilla]

Not sure what PCGMint might have, but Metropolis has an 8.5 for $6650

[blackterror]

not an 8.5...and therefore it is not one of the best. You get what you pay for.

[sfilosa]

Quick Point:

 

1) Assume there are three copies in 8.5.

2) Now one gets graded as a 9.0 (and assume that the consensus is this is the nicest copy in existence)

 

Would it be worth more if it had been graded a 9.2, or a 9.4 or 9.6.

 

The truthful answer is NO. It is the best and therefore, what is the value of the best (regardless of the grade).

 

Yet, based on your analysis, a multiple MUST be applies for each additional grade level. This is where I disagree.

[Timely]

Even though there is only 1 Phantom Lady #17 in 9.0 and it is currently the Highest Graded Copy I would not pay extra for that fact...in this particular circumstance. I have seen and owned copies in the 9.2-9.4 range and can assume the 9.0 copy will not always be the best graded copy. If that copy was a 9.6 then I would be reasonably assured none would grade higher.

 

Timely~West

[lou_fine]

Even though there is only 1 Phantom Lady #17 in 9.0 and it is currently the Highest Graded Copy I would not pay extra for that fact...in this particular circumstance. I have seen and owned copies in the 9.2-9.4 range and can assume the 9.0 copy will not always be the best graded copy. If that copy was a 9.6 then I would be reasonably assured none would grade higher.

 

Timely~West

 

Blackterror;

 

In full agreement with Timely here. I would only be willing to pay a slight premium for the 9.0 copy over the 8.5 copies. 9.0 is just one increment nicer than an 8.5 and still leaves a lot of room for higher graded copies to come out later. Although I have not been fortunate to see better copies, I am sure that the pedigree copies that have not been graded yet would produce higher grades than 9.0 copies.

 

Similarly, I find it amazing how some speculators/investors are paying silly money for 9.2 copies of early SA books thinking they'll remain the highest graded copies. We are really way too early in this slabbing scenario to be talking about highest graded copy.

[PovertyRow]

Even though there is only 1 Phantom Lady #17 in 9.0 and it is currently the Highest Graded Copy I would not pay extra for that fact...in this particular circumstance. I have seen and owned copies in the 9.2-9.4 range and can assume the 9.0 copy will not always be the best graded copy. If that copy was a 9.6 then I would be reasonably assured none would grade higher.

 

Timely~West

 

Blackterror;

 

In full agreement with Timely here. I would only be willing to pay a slight premium for the 9.0 copy over the 8.5 copies. 9.0 is just one increment nicer than an 8.5 and still leaves a lot of room for higher graded copies to come out later. Although I have not been fortunate to see better copies, I am sure that the pedigree copies that have not been graded yet would produce higher grades than 9.0 copies.

 

Similarly, I find it amazing how some speculators/investors are paying silly money for 9.2 copies of early SA books thinking they'll remain the highest graded copies. We are really way too early in this slabbing scenario to be talking about highest graded copy.

 

Kind of disagree here. (Empahsis on the KIND OF). It really depends on what those 9.2-9.4 range copies Timely has seen have been through. I once sold an A-1 27 (first Ghost Rider) in absolutely stunning condition. Easily a 9.2 and probably higher but let's just say a 9.2. Sold it to a dealer. A few shows later the book was still being "shown" by the dealer and was down to a F+ or, at absolute best upon a clear and frosty morning, a VF-. Basically the book had been trashed from its original condition from people handling it.

 

And Timely - I am sure you know of Church books that now have pages no longer white or even off-white due to storage conditions by subsequent purchasers.

 

As far as Early SA - that is a bit diff (talking to Mister Fine here) than a 40's GA. 15 or so years more existence tends to offer more possibilities for damage and just general storage issues.

 

I thank you.

[blackterror]

Why because...this book is I think, after 15 years of looking...is is the best copy or darn close! It sold for about 10k something like 8 years ago. It is better than the Mile High copy, by the way...and look at the Gerber copy...what is that? maybe be a 7.5 8.0 and Gerber did his best to picture the best examples he could find.

 

Reality suggests there aren't dozens or even a couple of more PL17's in high grade to be found anywhere...how many high grade golden age books exixst of any book for that matter? If there weren't already 3 there may be more, but that there are 3 suggests most of these are already graded...or the sellers fear the CGC they will receive.

 

Are you suggesting there are still several out there better than 9.0, I doubt it. And jsut for the record I've seen a few...in more than 20 years of collecting......but I think you may be mistaken although I look forward to seeing over the years...which one of us is right...and just to make sure...let's note there are 2 8.5's and 1 9.0 which may at some point be pressed to higher grades...so if they ever change on the census...a new book hasn't popped up...just an old one got tinkered with or the grading scale changed.

 

As the post I'm responding to points out...what you saw was then...and this is now....and some great books years ago have had things like color touch and mis-storage...oh yes, let us not forget ... PL17 in high grade is a tough, tough book. That's why Heritage trumpeted the fact they had never sold one the first time they did.

 

Anyway my secondary question was what would you sell it for if it were yours. What everybody said was ?? Maybe guide is way off pricing Golden Age at 9.2 and that's why nobody is selling those Batman's PGC Mint is hunting for, because at the very least their "perceived value" is much higher to the current owners...than people are willing or perhaps able to pay at the moment. And unless you have to sell them...Don't Sell. 9.2 Golden Age Batman's good grief ... they are not that plentiful. That's why the adage has been when you want a golden age book especially Gerber 5 up...don't wait on a better copy...as it may never come along....but I digress.

 

Now for the main topic...which was not Phantom Lady...she is just eye candy for the discussion. The current guide does a DIS-SERVICE in pricing Golden Age beyond 9.0...if there is a cut-off for pricing...I suggest it be 8.0 or 9.0 for Golden Age? Shoot the PGCMINT poster is telling us straight up that Gary Carter's approach was 10 times guide...the only question then is at what point does the guide go out the window...on Golden Age...I think it's at about 8.5 of course this grade isn't currently used in Overstreet....which is why I said 8.0 or 9.0...

 

I'd still like to know what you would do if your book were one of the best...in Golden Age that means at what point do we disregard guide...I think before 9.2...

 

Forget the Phantom Lady...what if it were say...Black Terror 20 as somebody mentioned they owned one earlier...there aren't many high grade copies of that in the census? Heck they are more rare than PL 17. I think guide should be a guide not a perfect solution...but call attention to rarity, demand, and value...and that is done by where the grading cuts out.

 

If you had a let's say 9.2 copy of Black Terror #20, a great book. What is that in this year's guide? There aren't any even in the census...I think there is one at 7.5 and one at maybe 8.0? Overstreet is basically pricing what some suggest is a very incomplete census...I would suggest we have a great census...we are 5 years into CGC and most BlackTerrors are in the census exist in just one or two copies. How many of these are in Heritage Auctions, why did the number 8 blow away the guide in the last Heritage Auction. Because Guide does a dis-service to all Golden Age, not just Phantom Lady.

 

I don't think there are dozens of high grade copies to be found, period. I think above 8.0...they do a disservice to Golden Age. Do you disagree? Would you sell your Black Terror 20 which may darn well be the best existing copy...for guide...or even double guide...or would the guide be better by ceasing to price at say 8.0 calling your attention to the extreme rarity of such a book as one of a kind, or darn close. Again, I know Overstreet is a guide...but I am suggesting it is with Golden Age in some ways...A MIS-GUIDE...A BAD GUIDE...which is why so many people tout GPA Analysis...and I am suggesting we call it to Overstreet's attention...that if pricing should stop for Silver Age at 9.2 ... the same is not true for Golden Age... and I'm hoping we could get some consensus here.

 

This is fun : ) I've got another great topic to discuss...when we've chewed this one some more. Thanks for the conversation...and thanks Timely for your push gives some zip to the chat...

[PovertyRow]

This is fun : ) I've got another great topic to discuss...when we've chewed this one some more.

 

This IS fun. Good conversation. A suggestion, though. You were responding to me but a lot of what you said I also agreed with - perhaps worded differently but in general. So I am not sure what points you're discussing that I went counter to.

[blackterror]

clamor for this years' guide that every body wants to pre-order TO NOT cut off golden age pricing at the same point as silver age pricing...

 

I suggest 8.5 or 9.0 for golden age ... 9.2 for silver age ... 9.4 for bronze age ... and 9.6 for copper/modern

 

Also pressing was discussed in part on p. 2

 

still wondering what people would sell an icon book like the phantom lady 17 in 9.0 for nobody ever made up a price ... I would re-point out that timely said there were others better...NOT YET ... unless the one's already slabbed get pressed, so I'll be watching those census numbers to see if they disappear and re-appear with higher grades.

 

I suggest you pick some books that are big and key and watch them on census...to see if they get pressed...

 

Seriously folks a good guide absolutely would not guide or suggest that the pricing and grading is the same for golden age and bronze age books...it's time to improve the guide some more...all silver age exists in 9.2 ... but lots of golden age does not...shoot some of it doesn't even exist in 8.5 but for the sake of a guide I think that's about as low as they should go...any golden age above 9.0 is just as hard to value as silver age above 9.2 and this would do the collecting a great service to price in such a manner as to demonstrate where extreme rarity and price volatility really kicks in.

 

If this thread doesn't pique general interest....I will move my line of thought over to golden age, but as this thread had some good dialogue thought it prudent for re-visit...and while my real concern is lowering the top grade for golden/atomic age....differentiating from silver....it ultimately effects every grade and collector who uses Overstreet in any fashion. Thanks

[ACME]

I agree that Golden Age is a very difficult area to deal in. Almost all of my purchases this year have been HG Golden Age, and it's tough to determine whether you're getting a fair deal or being taken to the cleaner's. My viewpoint is that there is seldom a such thing as paying too much for a rare or desirable book, especially one that's highest on the census. Who's to say how much something is worth except what a buyer is willing to pay?

I feel that GPA is definitely more accurate than Overstreet, because at least it shows real sales. However, I think it needs to be improved on also. There should be some way for private sales to be documented, because a lot of sales occur in this manner. My biggest purchases, accounting for about 3/4 of my comic spending, have been in private sales. These figures will probably never be recorded, so it makes it difficult to establish an upward trend in pricing, or even show that the Golden Age market is as busy as I believe it to be. Maybe some sort of form you could download where the buyer and seller documented the transaction. I understand that would involve some work, and there would have to be reasonable evidence that the sale did occur, but personally I would be more than willing to take the time to do it in order to show that some of these sales have occured.

I know that people are saying highest graded can still be out there unslabbed, but my feeling is that when they are slabbed, the value for selling purposes should increase based on the sale of the current highest graded. In other words, if you pay $50k for the current highest 8.5, and a 9.0 gets slabbed, it's value should obviously be above $50k because a precident has been set by the 8.5 sale. The risk of overpaying on the current highest graded is not real, because who in their right mind will want to sell the 9.0 for less? Now if a warehouse full of Action #1's pops up, that's a different story. I'm not holding my breath, though.

Oh yeah, Phantom Lady 17 pricing: minimum $1 million. Much more attractive than a guy in a cape throwing a car.

Great topic, I wish you would've posted it in Gold comics. There's not much to talk about in that forum right now.

[shrunkenhead]

Acme, I'm with you up until the tail end of your argument. You write that "if you pay $50k for the current highest 8.5, and a 9.0 gets slabbed, it's value should obviously be above $50k because a precident has been set by the 8.5 sale." I have to disagree with you here, as the market is just too fluid and unstable for such a seemingly sound prediction. If a 9.0 gets slabbed, it could seriously diminish the value of the former "best existing" copy, reducing its value to say 40k (just throwing a number out their for the sake of argument). In addition, a new slab has just inflated the census by 1, and when we're talking about GA books even 1 more book on the population report is significant. So that inflated census could diminish the perceived value of the 9.0 as well, due to slightly changing perceptions regarding the scarcity of said book. So the new highest graded copy may not achieve the same sale price as the 8.5, let alone surpass it.

 

Plus, when you're getting into books in that price range, you're dealing with a very limited number of buyers. So you might only be able to get 40k, regardless, because the other guy who was willing to pay more already purchased his copy and doesn't care to upgrade.

 

(I've never understood this limited amount of buyers, btw. There are plenty of wealthy people in America but most of them just don't do comics. The really rich are typically more turned on by other collectables...fine art, wine, 16th century folios and quartos, etc. Fine art is the real biggie in terms of dollars generated. I guess NM copies of Spidey would bring a snigger or a grimace at the garden party?)

 

So "who in their right mind will want to sell the 9.0 for less?" A lot of people, as 40k is still a lot of money!

 

The rest of your argument does ring true. Earlier this year I paid about 3x the 9.2 guide price for the Lost Valley copy of America Menaced, CGC 9.6. There are some who would say I got fleeced paying such a high multiple for such an obscure book (i.e. it's not FF, Batman, etc.). But it's an irreplaceable book of sincere historic import. The odds of a 9.8 appearing are slim to nil, and even if one did show up there'd still only be 3 copies on the current census. So how do you put a value on a book like that??

[rjpb]

The rest of your argument does ring true. Earlier this year I paid about 3x the 9.2 guide price for the Lost Valley copy of America Menaced, CGC 9.6. There are some who would say I got fleeced paying such a high multiple for such an obscure book

 

Actually, America Menaced is so obscure that I imagine a 9.2 copy might also fetch 3X guide.

I don't follow HG GA sales that closely myself, but I'm sure you're right about sales being infrequent enough for a given issue, that .5 differences in grade have little influence on prices realized. Even with more easily tracked sales of HG Silver and Bronze, there seems to be a fair amount of float in prices, even when the overall trend indicates rising value.

[blackterror]

my bottom line point in this entire thread is this....

 

golden age should not be priced up to 9.2 as though it is silver age to treat them the same...is to create a MIS - GUIDE.

 

I suggest golden/atomic age priced to either the current 8.0 or the 9.0 ... and stop the guessing right there.

 

to stop pricing bronze age at 9.2 is also a serious MIS-GUIDE and they should be priced up to 9.4 or even 9.6.

 

The reason pricing stops at 9.2 is to suggest the books are so rare and volatile in price that to price beyond that is nothing but guessing and any books beyond that is some multiple that fluctuates...

 

Current guide dis-services anybody with golden age as that degree of volatility and rarity kicks in at 8.0 and for sure at 9.0....

 

Current guide dis-services anybody into bronze or modern age as it suggests beyond 9.2 is rare and some multiple of guide...and the fact is there are no modern books that are rare or hard to find until you get to maybe 9.6 or even 9.8 ...

 

Last year the guide took the right step in adjusting from 9.4 to 9.2 as the standard for SILVER AGE ... but this does not apply to any other age.

 

This can and should be fixed and we should ask for it as collectors...I wrote Overstreet, but right now I am one voice crying in the wilderness...

 

Do you see what I see?

[Norrin_Radd]

Do you see what I see?

 

Do you hear what I hear?

[chrisco37]

Do you see what I see?

 

Do you hear what I hear?

 

A song! A song! High above the trees.....

[Norrin_Radd]

Do you see what I see?

 

Do you hear what I hear?

 

A song! A song! High above the trees.....