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Moderns that are heating up on ebay!
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Started by thirdgreenham,

63,835 posts in this topic

500Club

500Club

Posted
Posted
There should be rules concerning this matter.

There won't be. It'll always be a fluid situation where the market establishes a consensus.

 

I know you all hate me

Nope. :foryou:

 

Happy to have some debate on what is a completely inconsistently applied concept.

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500Club

500Club

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Posted
But in the case of say Darksied, his appearance on the monitor in Jimmy Olsen would be a first appearance and his first full appearance would be New Gods 2/Forever People 1 depending on date. There is no cameo because he is not in shadow or obstructed in some other way.

 

This IS a cameo. The term 'cameo' is getting mixed up a little here; it doesn't mean obscured or partially visible - it simply means a brief appearance. Hulk 180 is a fully visable Wolverine appearance, but it's still a cameo. Obscured Winter Soldier would be a cameo appearance too. Visibility doesn't have anything to do with it.

 

So how, logically, can a cameo like that NOT be a first appearance??? Just because it's brief doesn't change the fact that the character appeared (unless it's the Flash or Quicksilver, then maybe it was too brief).

See fingh's argument in another thread where he uses the terms 'literalists' and 'contextualists'. The literalist argument has always been discarded, probably since this a storytelling medium, and a first contextual involvement in a story is felt to be most significant.

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Dukes40

Dukes40

Posted
Posted

It probably happened like this:

 

Kid grabs Hulk 180. "Wow, who's this character at the end. Looks neato???"

 

Kid grabs Hulk 181. "Wow, this new character's awesome, and the story is great. Hey everyone, get Hulk 181, its awesome!"

 

Next Kids: "Wow, this Hulk 181, IS great! Wolverine is the man!"

 

And then it snowballs from there. Demand for 181 probably shot up, as people wanted it for the story, not so much the 1st appearance aspect. No reprints, trade paperbacks, digital comics to get the story from. Things then get buried in the past, then resurface 38 years later on some chat board.

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Dukes40

Dukes40

Posted
Posted
But in the case of say Darksied, his appearance on the monitor in Jimmy Olsen would be a first appearance and his first full appearance would be New Gods 2/Forever People 1 depending on date. There is no cameo because he is not in shadow or obstructed in some other way.

 

This IS a cameo. The term 'cameo' is getting mixed up a little here; it doesn't mean obscured or partially visible - it simply means a brief appearance. Hulk 180 is a fully visable Wolverine appearance, but it's still a cameo. Obscured Winter Soldier would be a cameo appearance too. Visibility doesn't have anything to do with it.

 

So how, logically, can a cameo like that NOT be a first appearance??? Just because it's brief doesn't change the fact that the character appeared (unless it's the Flash or Quicksilver, then maybe it was too brief).

See fingh's argument in another thread where he uses the terms 'literalists' and 'contextualists'. The literalist argument has always been discarded, probably since this a storytelling medium, and a first contextual involvement in a story is felt to be most significant.

 

The lingo definetly needs an update. I see the practical side of it(ie. what's in higher demand, which issue is "the place to be". , etc ), but the logical side of me finds it hard to stomach sometimes.

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Mike's Rack

Mike's Rack

Posted
Posted
It probably happened like this:

 

Kid grabs Hulk 180. "Wow, who's this character at the end. Looks neato???"

 

Kid grabs Hulk 181. "Wow, this new character's awesome, and the story is great. Hey everyone, get Hulk 181, its awesome!"

 

Next Kids: "Wow, this Hulk 181, IS great! Wolverine is the man!"

 

And then it snowballs from there. Demand for 181 probably shot up, as people wanted it for the story, not so much the 1st appearance aspect. No reprints, trade paperbacks, digital comics to get the story from. Things then get buried in the past, then resurface 38 years later on some chat board.

Actually, it took years for the market to decide that 181 was more valued. I was looking through an old Overstreet and there was a mail order add, I can't remember which shop. The had 180 for like $7.50 and 181 for around $2.00. This was Overstreet # 10 or 11 so it was late 70's.
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Shark

Shark

Posted
Posted
It probably happened like this:

 

Kid grabs Hulk 180. "Wow, who's this character at the end. Looks neato???"

 

Kid grabs Hulk 181. "Wow, this new character's awesome, and the story is great. Hey everyone, get Hulk 181, its awesome!"

 

Next Kids: "Wow, this Hulk 181, IS great! Wolverine is the man!"

 

And then it snowballs from there. Demand for 181 probably shot up, as people wanted it for the story, not so much the 1st appearance aspect. No reprints, trade paperbacks, digital comics to get the story from. Things then get buried in the past, then resurface 38 years later on some chat board.

Actually, it took years for the market to decide that 181 was more valued. I was looking through an old Overstreet and there was a mail order add, I can't remember which shop. The had 180 for like $7.50 and 181 for around $2.00. This was Overstreet # 10 or 11 so it was late 70's.

 

It was Overstreet #11. They had Hulk #180 as "1st app. Wolverine" with a price of $12.00 in Mint. Hulk #181 was only $5.25 in Mint.

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Dukes40

Dukes40

Posted
Posted
It probably happened like this:

 

Kid grabs Hulk 180. "Wow, who's this character at the end. Looks neato???"

 

Kid grabs Hulk 181. "Wow, this new character's awesome, and the story is great. Hey everyone, get Hulk 181, its awesome!"

 

Next Kids: "Wow, this Hulk 181, IS great! Wolverine is the man!"

 

And then it snowballs from there. Demand for 181 probably shot up, as people wanted it for the story, not so much the 1st appearance aspect. No reprints, trade paperbacks, digital comics to get the story from. Things then get buried in the past, then resurface 38 years later on some chat board.

Actually, it took years for the market to decide that 181 was more valued. I was looking through an old Overstreet and there was a mail order add, I can't remember which shop. The had 180 for like $7.50 and 181 for around $2.00. This was Overstreet # 10 or 11 so it was late 70's.

 

Wow. That's pretty interesting. I find it's always cool to go back and see stuff like that from the past.

 

I'm wondering if there are ever any hidden factors that dictate this as well. (i.e. a group of shop owners, collectors, etc. pushed for one to be recognized as the 1st appearance over the other? For monitary gain? Just because they thought 181 should be, etc??).

 

 

 

I'm thinking that at some point in these books life, someone like Overstreet, Wizard, etc comes along and goes with one, so that becomes the consensus for a while, then maybe a while later, another entity comes along and changes the norm, etc etc. In the 70's, 80's, only a few of these companies/entities, existed, therefore, probably a lot easier to sway the market one way or another. Not so much now, as so many different factions/people on internet, etc. have a say, it's not dictated to them.

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the authority

the authority

Posted
Posted
It probably happened like this:

 

Kid grabs Hulk 180. "Wow, who's this character at the end. Looks neato???"

 

Kid grabs Hulk 181. "Wow, this new character's awesome, and the story is great. Hey everyone, get Hulk 181, its awesome!"

 

Next Kids: "Wow, this Hulk 181, IS great! Wolverine is the man!"

 

And then it snowballs from there. Demand for 181 probably shot up, as people wanted it for the story, not so much the 1st appearance aspect. No reprints, trade paperbacks, digital comics to get the story from. Things then get buried in the past, then resurface 38 years later on some chat board.

Actually, it took years for the market to decide that 181 was more valued. I was looking through an old Overstreet and there was a mail order add, I can't remember which shop. The had 180 for like $7.50 and 181 for around $2.00. This was Overstreet # 10 or 11 so it was late 70's.

 

Wow. That's pretty interesting. I find it's always cool to go back and see stuff like that from the past.

 

I'm wondering if there are ever any hidden factors that dictate this as well. (i.e. a group of shop owners, collectors, etc. pushed for one to be recognized as the 1st appearance over the other? For monitary gain? Just because they thought 181 should be, etc??).

 

 

 

I'm thinking that at some point in these books life, someone like Overstreet, Wizard, etc comes along and goes with one, so that becomes the consensus for a while, then maybe a while later, another entity comes along and changes the norm, etc etc. In the 70's, 80's, only a few of these companies/entities, existed, therefore, probably a lot easier to sway the market one way or another. Not so much now, as so many different factions/people on internet, etc. have a say, it's not dictated to them.

 

The best I can remember, Incredible Hulk 162 ( I think 1st Wendigo ) and 181 were more in comic shops I went to than 180 was in the late 70s and early 80s. I can remember my bro buying 4 of the 1st Wendigo and 4 of 181 and only 1 of 180. Demand may have changed the pecking order. Just a guess.

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MrWeen

MrWeen

Posted
Posted (edited)
But in the case of say Darksied, his appearance on the monitor in Jimmy Olsen would be a first appearance and his first full appearance would be New Gods 2/Forever People 1 depending on date. There is no cameo because he is not in shadow or obstructed in some other way.

 

This IS a cameo. The term 'cameo' is getting mixed up a little here; it doesn't mean obscured or partially visible - it simply means a brief appearance. Hulk 180 is a fully visable Wolverine appearance, but it's still a cameo. Obscured Winter Soldier would be a cameo appearance too. Visibility doesn't have anything to do with it.

 

Yeah you are right there, but then wouldn't Batman 656 only be a cameo of Damian Wayne due to the brevity of his appearance on the last page? As a result 657 would be his first appearance.

Edited by MrWeen
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