WARNING: Tec 34 on eBay is a cracked RESTORED, being sold as Unrestored!

[aggr1103]

There have been numerous pressing threads in Comics General over the years. They usually devolve into personal attacks and circular arguments. We try to be more civil in the Gold forum.

 

I figured as much. It was one reason why I thought it would be OK to bring up in the Gold forum because I didn't expect the thread to turn into a tirade or get derailed by pics of a naked Burt Reynolds.

[nearmint]

There have been numerous pressing threads in Comics General over the years. They usually devolve into personal attacks and circular arguments. We try to be more civil in the Gold forum.

 

I figured as much. It was one reason why I thought it would be OK to bring up in the Gold forum because I didn't expect the thread to turn into a tirade or get derailed by pics of a naked Burt Reynolds.

 

You'll also find, and I'm not sure why, that most GA collectors don't have strong feelings against pressing. I, personally, don't care if pressing is disclosed to me or not, but I would want to know if a staple had been replaced.

[Dale Roberts]

This seller is a prime example of someone who was trying to take advantage of the system, why else would he have cracked the book to flip immediately after he won it?

 

He bought a book that was CGC’d restored, cracked it out, than listed it as an unrestored book in his sub-title and majority of his description. If that is not manipulation of the truth I don’t know what is. He then only points out, and tries his best to down play the glue restoration at the very end of his listing, after paragraphs of calling it unrestored.

 

He completely leaves out the fact that the staple is replaced. Which makes the book an automatic QUALIFIED or a RESTORED book if the glue is still as present as it was when it was cracked.

 

The listing had already been bid up into the mid $400’s within one day of him listing it as unrestored, and he paid $585 for it. So logically we can assume it would have gone way past what he paid for it by the end, on the false pretense that it was Unrestored.

 

The bottom line here is someone was trying to cheat and lie to get a profit, there is no other getting around it.

 

Argh! The points are...

 

(a) If buyers weren't so anal as to obsess over a replaced staple on a book that's still a 1.5 no matter what, then nobody would be trying "to take advantage" of the system. How can a book like this possibly be worth any different whether the staple's been replaced or not? It's patently absurd! If somebody is intentionally lying about a triviality such as this in this instance, it's only because "the cgc community" has created such an idiotic potentiality in the first place.

 

(b) I'd certainly crack a book like this out of a slab... it should never have been slabbed in the first place! It should never be re-slabbed, therefore the purple vs. blue label is irrelevent! My low-grade collectors don't want their books slabbed... they want them low-grade so they can look at them. If you people are manipulating the market (and you are) to the point where an already heavily-damaged book can be worth hundreds of dollars different depending on whether the staple's been replaced or not, you are ultimately driving people away from this hobby.

 

© How much detail on a 1.5 book needs to be presented to satisfy board members? Can it ever really be enough? It's already been established that some would return the book if they discovered the (one) replaced staple. Would you also return it if a tiny tear on p.17 wasn't mentioned? How about a speck of ant-spit on p.39?

 

(d) Again... I don't know if this guy has a pattern of "crookedness" or not... but what I'm saying is when you start a thread attacking and labeling a seller as a crook as was done here, I go in expecting to learn about some egregious offender I should avoid like the plague. Instead I see a firestorm over trivia. Now I'm being told he has a "pattern"-- but why should I believe it? Maybe it's just more silliness maskerading as an expose. Then when something really serious comes along, I (and many others) may be less likely to even bother with the thread. It's been asked here numerous times why people keep buying from Robojo when the Boards have warned about him so many times? Maybe it's because people come on here and see what non-CGC members see as insanity, and avoid the really useful warnings as well.

 

(e) There are many people throughout the country that will attest to the fact that I am as honest and scrupulous a dealer as there is. But I will never ever put a book up for sale on these boards. If I were to make a mistake-- or more likely not even make a mistake but just not do something in exactly the way some members demand I should-- I would have my reputation trashed in dozens of posts through no fault of my own. It isn't worth the risk. And there are many others that feel as I do.

 

(f) As for the book being "manipulated" (by a replaced staple)... again... how can a book be any MORE manipulated than being ripped out of a binding where it's been threaded and glued? And then it's been taped after that? The staple can be replaced with a rubber band at this point, and can it really matter all that much!!!

 

 

I have read this thread up to this point, and that is probably about enough for me.

 

I will tell you that Tim (pulpguide) has an incredible track record in this business. He has been selling retail forever, and his integrity has never been questioned by anyone I know, and his knowledge of the collectible business is as extensive as practically anyone in the hobby. He also deals in movie memorabilia, pulps, and books.

 

I tend to agree with him. If a book is low grade and trashed, having dozens of defects, some catastrophic, some minor, has restoration, what difference does it make whether a staple has been replaced or not. The book is not going to be worth less. Maybe you don't have complete disclosure from the seller, but I don't see it as having impact on the value of the book.

 

Of course, I am speaking in broad generalities here and a specific case could be different.

 

As for the integrity of a particular seller I have no history with and have done no research about, I will leave that to the masses to decide.

 

I do think almost everyone on the boards recognizes that there is a rush to judgement on here at times, and that many times, the forum would be better served to discuss and communicate before beginnning to label someone as a scammer. If a guy truly is dishonest, it is going to come out. You don't get a prize for being the first to call it.

 

 

[jimjum12]

This seller is a prime example of someone who was trying to take advantage of the system, why else would he have cracked the book to flip immediately after he won it?

 

He bought a book that was CGC’d restored, cracked it out, than listed it as an unrestored book in his sub-title and majority of his description. If that is not manipulation of the truth I don’t know what is. He then only points out, and tries his best to down play the glue restoration at the very end of his listing, after paragraphs of calling it unrestored.

 

He completely leaves out the fact that the staple is replaced. Which makes the book an automatic QUALIFIED or a RESTORED book if the glue is still as present as it was when it was cracked.

 

The listing had already been bid up into the mid $400’s within one day of him listing it as unrestored, and he paid $585 for it. So logically we can assume it would have gone way past what he paid for it by the end, on the false pretense that it was Unrestored.

 

The bottom line here is someone was trying to cheat and lie to get a profit, there is no other getting around it.

 

Argh! The points are...

 

(a) If buyers weren't so anal as to obsess over a replaced staple on a book that's still a 1.5 no matter what, then nobody would be trying "to take advantage" of the system. How can a book like this possibly be worth any different whether the staple's been replaced or not? It's patently absurd! If somebody is intentionally lying about a triviality such as this in this instance, it's only because "the cgc community" has created such an idiotic potentiality in the first place.

 

(b) I'd certainly crack a book like this out of a slab... it should never have been slabbed in the first place! It should never be re-slabbed, therefore the purple vs. blue label is irrelevent! My low-grade collectors don't want their books slabbed... they want them low-grade so they can look at them. If you people are manipulating the market (and you are) to the point where an already heavily-damaged book can be worth hundreds of dollars different depending on whether the staple's been replaced or not, you are ultimately driving people away from this hobby.

 

© How much detail on a 1.5 book needs to be presented to satisfy board members? Can it ever really be enough? It's already been established that some would return the book if they discovered the (one) replaced staple. Would you also return it if a tiny tear on p.17 wasn't mentioned? How about a speck of ant-spit on p.39?

 

(d) Again... I don't know if this guy has a pattern of "crookedness" or not... but what I'm saying is when you start a thread attacking and labeling a seller as a crook as was done here, I go in expecting to learn about some egregious offender I should avoid like the plague. Instead I see a firestorm over trivia. Now I'm being told he has a "pattern"-- but why should I believe it? Maybe it's just more silliness maskerading as an expose. Then when something really serious comes along, I (and many others) may be less likely to even bother with the thread. It's been asked here numerous times why people keep buying from Robojo when the Boards have warned about him so many times? Maybe it's because people come on here and see what non-CGC members see as insanity, and avoid the really useful warnings as well.

 

(e) There are many people throughout the country that will attest to the fact that I am as honest and scrupulous a dealer as there is. But I will never ever put a book up for sale on these boards. If I were to make a mistake-- or more likely not even make a mistake but just not do something in exactly the way some members demand I should-- I would have my reputation trashed in dozens of posts through no fault of my own. It isn't worth the risk. And there are many others that feel as I do.

 

(f) As for the book being "manipulated" (by a replaced staple)... again... how can a book be any MORE manipulated than being ripped out of a binding where it's been threaded and glued? And then it's been taped after that? The staple can be replaced with a rubber band at this point, and can it really matter all that much!!!

 

 

I have read this thread up to this point, and that is probably about enough for me.

 

I will tell you that Tim (pulpguide) has an incredible track record in this business. He has been selling retail forever, and his integrity has never been questioned by anyone I know, and his knowledge of the collectible business is as extensive as practically anyone in the hobby. He also deals in movie memorabilia, pulps, and books.

 

I tend to agree with him. If a book is low grade and trashed, having dozens of defects, some catastrophic, some minor, has restoration, what difference does it make whether a staple has been replaced or not. The book is not going to be worth less. Maybe you don't have complete disclosure from the seller, but I don't see it as having impact on the value of the book.

 

Of course, I am speaking in broad generalities here and a specific case could be different.

 

As for the integrity of a particular seller I have no history with and have done no research about, I will leave that to the masses to decide.

 

I do think almost everyone on the boards recognizes that there is a rush to judgement on here at times, and that many times, the forum would be better served to discuss and communicate before beginnning to label someone as a scammer. If a guy truly is dishonest, it is going to come out. You don't get a prize for being the first to call it.

 

 

......Restoration shouldn't even be a criteria of classification for books below 4.0.....at that level it truly is conservation, and should be applauded.It's not like the guy did anything criminal, like removing mattress tags.....he just disagreed with CGC's assessment of a "beater".GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[bluechip]

There have been numerous pressing threads in Comics General over the years. They usually devolve into personal attacks and circular arguments. We try to be more civil in the Gold forum.

 

I figured as much. It was one reason why I thought it would be OK to bring up in the Gold forum because I didn't expect the thread to turn into a tirade or get derailed by pics of a naked Burt Reynolds.

 

You'll also find, and I'm not sure why, that most GA collectors don't have strong feelings against pressing. I, personally, don't care if pressing is disclosed to me or not, but I would want to know if a staple had been replaced.

 

I didn't used to care about a replaced staple more than to ask whether it should be a little bit less, like 10%. But today I know there are people out there who either hate replaced staples, or don't mind them but see them as a means of driving the price down 90 or 95% And I know those people will work hard to prevent anybody else from buying or selling a book with a replaced staple at an amount higher than they would want to pay themselves.

 

So, I have to take that into account. And, knowing how some people feel about pressed books, I would care about knowing a book was pressed mostly for the same reason; if some determined person wants to kill the value of a book because it's pressed, they will spend lots of time on it. And if they can someday create a new grading system or criteria which forces pressed books to be labelled in one way or another as "not for investment," they will do it.

[bluechip]

This seller is a prime example of someone who was trying to take advantage of the system, why else would he have cracked the book to flip immediately after he won it?

 

He bought a book that was CGC’d restored, cracked it out, than listed it as an unrestored book in his sub-title and majority of his description. If that is not manipulation of the truth I don’t know what is. He then only points out, and tries his best to down play the glue restoration at the very end of his listing, after paragraphs of calling it unrestored.

 

He completely leaves out the fact that the staple is replaced. Which makes the book an automatic QUALIFIED or a RESTORED book if the glue is still as present as it was when it was cracked.

 

The listing had already been bid up into the mid $400’s within one day of him listing it as unrestored, and he paid $585 for it. So logically we can assume it would have gone way past what he paid for it by the end, on the false pretense that it was Unrestored.

 

The bottom line here is someone was trying to cheat and lie to get a profit, there is no other getting around it.

 

Argh! The points are...

 

(a) If buyers weren't so anal as to obsess over a replaced staple on a book that's still a 1.5 no matter what, then nobody would be trying "to take advantage" of the system. How can a book like this possibly be worth any different whether the staple's been replaced or not? It's patently absurd! If somebody is intentionally lying about a triviality such as this in this instance, it's only because "the cgc community" has created such an idiotic potentiality in the first place.

 

(b) I'd certainly crack a book like this out of a slab... it should never have been slabbed in the first place! It should never be re-slabbed, therefore the purple vs. blue label is irrelevent! My low-grade collectors don't want their books slabbed... they want them low-grade so they can look at them. If you people are manipulating the market (and you are) to the point where an already heavily-damaged book can be worth hundreds of dollars different depending on whether the staple's been replaced or not, you are ultimately driving people away from this hobby.

 

© How much detail on a 1.5 book needs to be presented to satisfy board members? Can it ever really be enough? It's already been established that some would return the book if they discovered the (one) replaced staple. Would you also return it if a tiny tear on p.17 wasn't mentioned? How about a speck of ant-spit on p.39?

 

(d) Again... I don't know if this guy has a pattern of "crookedness" or not... but what I'm saying is when you start a thread attacking and labeling a seller as a crook as was done here, I go in expecting to learn about some egregious offender I should avoid like the plague. Instead I see a firestorm over trivia. Now I'm being told he has a "pattern"-- but why should I believe it? Maybe it's just more silliness maskerading as an expose. Then when something really serious comes along, I (and many others) may be less likely to even bother with the thread. It's been asked here numerous times why people keep buying from Robojo when the Boards have warned about him so many times? Maybe it's because people come on here and see what non-CGC members see as insanity, and avoid the really useful warnings as well.

 

(e) There are many people throughout the country that will attest to the fact that I am as honest and scrupulous a dealer as there is. But I will never ever put a book up for sale on these boards. If I were to make a mistake-- or more likely not even make a mistake but just not do something in exactly the way some members demand I should-- I would have my reputation trashed in dozens of posts through no fault of my own. It isn't worth the risk. And there are many others that feel as I do.

 

(f) As for the book being "manipulated" (by a replaced staple)... again... how can a book be any MORE manipulated than being ripped out of a binding where it's been threaded and glued? And then it's been taped after that? The staple can be replaced with a rubber band at this point, and can it really matter all that much!!!

 

 

I have read this thread up to this point, and that is probably about enough for me.

 

I will tell you that Tim (pulpguide) has an incredible track record in this business. He has been selling retail forever, and his integrity has never been questioned by anyone I know, and his knowledge of the collectible business is as extensive as practically anyone in the hobby. He also deals in movie memorabilia, pulps, and books.

 

I tend to agree with him. If a book is low grade and trashed, having dozens of defects, some catastrophic, some minor, has restoration, what difference does it make whether a staple has been replaced or not. The book is not going to be worth less. Maybe you don't have complete disclosure from the seller, but I don't see it as having impact on the value of the book.

 

Of course, I am speaking in broad generalities here and a specific case could be different.

 

As for the integrity of a particular seller I have no history with and have done no research about, I will leave that to the masses to decide.

 

I do think almost everyone on the boards recognizes that there is a rush to judgement on here at times, and that many times, the forum would be better served to discuss and communicate before beginnning to label someone as a scammer. If a guy truly is dishonest, it is going to come out. You don't get a prize for being the first to call it.

 

 

......Restoration shouldn't even be a criteria of classification for books below 4.0.....at that level it truly is conservation, and should be applauded.It's not like the guy did anything criminal, like removing mattress tags.....he just disagreed with CGC's assessment of a "beater".GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

CGC puts restored labels on books that are poor, and the labels read "apparent poor."

 

 

I have seen a couple of old guys that were told to have their books graded end up parting with mega-key books for pennies on the dollar because they were told the "restoration" on their poor condition book meant it had to be sold for an even tinier fraction of the overstreet good price (which, in itself, was a fraction of the FMV).

 

 

[jimjum12]

....that's kind of sad. People sometimes will say that my opinion on lower grade resto is not accurate and that the market DOES have a disdain for resto, even at those levels....but I still see example after example of low grade purple labels that achieve full OSPG for the grade. I wish I had kept records of them. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[esquirecomics]

There have been numerous pressing threads in Comics General over the years. They usually devolve into personal attacks and circular arguments. We try to be more civil in the Gold forum.

 

I figured as much. It was one reason why I thought it would be OK to bring up in the Gold forum because I didn't expect the thread to turn into a tirade or get derailed by pics of a naked Burt Reynolds.

 

You'll also find, and I'm not sure why, that most GA collectors don't have strong feelings against pressing. I, personally, don't care if pressing is disclosed to me or not, but I would want to know if a staple had been replaced.

 

I wouldn't say "most" because I don't believe we know one way or the other. Some care, some don't. That would be accurate.

 

I actually care less about a vintage staple being replaced than I do about a GA book being pressed, but nevertheless I think both should be disclosed and the individual buyer can decide how much they care about either or the extent to which, if any, the book's value should be impacted.

 

Getting back to the topic at hand so as not to have this conversation devolve into a pressing vs. disclosure debate, I think the primary issue, at least to me, was that the book was in a CGC restored holder but then was offered as unrestored.

 

Now, it may be that Mark had a different view than CGC on whether the book was restored or not but this is far too close for comfort for me. I would have much rather seen him simply dispute the CGC designation in his auction than ignore it completely which allowed this controversy to erupt. Not good for him. Not good for the hobby.

[Ameri]

Let me add a feeble . Back in the day, I used to buy from Mark when he had World's Finest Comics and I was pleased with his books. Seemed like everybody was pleased with his books. Big big company at the time and he had a great catalog. Rarest of the rare stuff. The guy was also spotlighted in the old CBM several times with all kinds of praises. I remember he was one of the first guys to have Barks paintings in his catalogs. Perhaps this is where the name "dizneyart" springs from. So, all this with the Tec 34 will come as a surprise to many who knew Mark back in the day.

 

The fact that he bought the Tec 34 and immediately put it up for auction for everyone to connect the two dots, implies that we're either dealing with a nut or dealing with that old school kind of collector who might have never embraced the whole CGC thing when it came to be and, being an old restorer guy, assigns his own grade with the hope that CGC may be wrong. I'd rather think the latter because I know other old time or old school collectors that operate the same way. Back in the day, I don't think many people knew that Mark restored books. He sold restored books through his company, but most thought that his brother Matt was probably doing the resto for Mark. The books were listed as restored so there didn't seem to be too much hanky panky going on in his catalog listings.

 

However, this is 2011 and not 1990 anymore and collectors have gotten a lot more savvy due to the internet and other advanced methods of communication and what may not have been considered resto back then, certainly does now. The 2011 sensibilities rule, and the old school guys just have to mannup and change with the times. I can't imagine that Mark did what he did just to make a buck, but hey, I've been proven wrong before. He certainly didn't score any points with anyone this week.

[ciorac]

Let me add a feeble . Back in the day, I used to buy from Mark when he had World's Finest Comics and I was pleased with his books. Seemed like everybody was pleased with his books. Big big company at the time and he had a great catalog. Rarest of the rare stuff. The guy was also spotlighted in the old CBM several times with all kinds of praises. I remember he was one of the first guys to have Barks paintings in his catalogs. Perhaps this is where the name "dizneyart" springs from. So, all this with the Tec 34 will come as a surprise to many who knew Mark back in the day.

 

The fact that he bought the Tec 34 and immediately put it up for auction for everyone to connect the two dots, implies that we're either dealing with a nut or dealing with that old school kind of collector who might have never embraced the whole CGC thing when it came to be and, being an old restorer guy, assigns his own grade with the hope that CGC may be wrong. I'd rather think the latter because I know other old time or old school collectors that operate the same way. Back in the day, I don't think many people knew that Mark restored books. He sold restored books through his company, but most thought that his brother Matt was probably doing the resto for Mark. The books were listed as restored so there didn't seem to be too much hanky panky going on in his catalog listings.

 

However, this is 2011 and not 1990 anymore and collectors have gotten a lot more savvy due to the internet and other advanced methods of communication and what may not have been considered resto back then, certainly does now. The 2011 sensibilities rule, and the old school guys just have to mannup and change with the times. I can't imagine that Mark did what he did just to make a buck, but hey, I've been proven wrong before. He certainly didn't score any points with anyone this week.

 

Back in the day, Mark never met a book he didn't clean

[sacentaur]

There are many people throughout the country that will attest to the fact that I am as honest and scrupulous a dealer as there is.

 

Agreed, but that is not the issue in question here, Tim.

 

The problem is that you appear somewhat clueless, not only in regards to this particular seller but the history and evolution of comic book collecting, as well.

 

An opinion is one thing; knowledge is another.

 

The seller is known as having a long history of manipulation and a perceived lack of ethics in the hobby - it's only natural that his efforts are viewed under the microscope.

[sacentaur]

Back in the day, Mark never met a book he didn't clean

 

'Tis true... and then sold as "TOTALLY UNTOUCHED AND UNRESTORED, GUARANTEED AUTHENTIC, blah blah"; I still have one in my collection.

 

 

 

 

[Ted Knight]

There have been numerous pressing threads in Comics General over the years. They usually devolve into personal attacks and circular arguments. We try to be more civil in the Gold forum.

 

I figured as much. It was one reason why I thought it would be OK to bring up in the Gold forum because I didn't expect the thread to turn into a tirade or get derailed by pics of a naked Burt Reynolds.

 

You'll also find, and I'm not sure why, that most GA collectors don't have strong feelings against pressing. I, personally, don't care if pressing is disclosed to me or not, but I would want to know if a staple had been replaced.

 

I wouldn't say "most" because I don't believe we know one way or the other. Some care, some don't. That would be accurate.

 

I actually care less about a vintage staple being replaced than I do about a GA book being pressed, but nevertheless I think both should be disclosed and the individual buyer can decide how much they care about either or the extent to which, if any, the book's value should be impacted.

 

Getting back to the topic at hand so as not to have this conversation devolve into a pressing vs. disclosure debate, I think the primary issue, at least to me, was that the book was in a CGC restored holder but then was offered as unrestored.

 

Now, it may be that Mark had a different view than CGC on whether the book was restored or not but this is far too close for comfort for me. I would have much rather seen him simply dispute the CGC designation in his auction than ignore it completely which allowed this controversy to erupt. Not good for him. Not good for the hobby.

I agree with everything you have here, Mark.

 

And I agree that the better path for Mark would have been to logically and cogently argue why his view of the book was more sound than the CGC assessment. I think there should be room for that sort of conversation rather than fear of questioning CGC designations. I really do believe that the health of the hobby lies in buying the books, not the labels.

 

[Ameri]

You guys have a lot more information than me and I appreciate the information. Now that I recall, there was a book or two I got from World's Finest that had a suspiciously odd cover texture. Perhaps it was dry cleaned. Always wondered about that. A lot of us were in a vaccuum back in the day.

[Bookery]

Honesty I am not sure what other collecting fields you have knowledge of as I see the same type of grade demand in comics, coins, stamps and sports cards.

 

There is a huge jump from a Mint 9 to Gem Mint 10 in sports cards. I can take a brand new card worth maybe $5 grade it a 10 and it is worth $50, a 9 is worth $5. so the price difference between a 9.6 and 9.8 etc is there in EVERY SINGLE HOBBY!!

 

Well, I suspect this thread has pretty much run its course by now, but I'll respond to a couple of things, as with the above. Once again (and I think this is the 3rd time so far) I think this makes my point for me. The collectibles referenced above are all 2-dimensional objects. What you see in the holder is all there is, so it makes sense that ultra-levels of scrutiny come into play. Plus, the object can be as fully enjoyed in its holder as without.

 

But comics aren't coins or cards or stamps. They are periodicals. And as such, grading should have developed more similarly to books and magazines and pulps and paperbacks, of which they are part of the same family. The attempt to micro-analyze comic book grades as if they were hard-metal coins with scientifically-observable patterns of wear was always ludicrous from the start. As for "every single hobby"... no way! There is no such thing as 9.6s and 9.8s in any other arena of the book/periodicals market... and any attempt to do so would have the grader laughed out of the room. Similarly, if a dust-jacket is shredded, missing about a third of it's structure, and barely clinging to the book... there are not a lot of folks who would care if the the lower spine-corner was also touched-up with a marker, and hence "restored"!

 

If your not happy with the way things go then leave :-) As others have said we aren't some lynch mob and we generally have very nice thougthful threads here in gold :-D

 

James G

 

Well, I think it's ridiculous that someone should have to leave if they disagree about some aspect of a hobby or chat-board. Most of the time you'll see my posts either tend to be informative, if I have knowledge I can add to a subject in some way, or just plain goofing around as is common around here.

 

HOWEVER-- you are right that you might come to that conclusion if all you saw were my posts in this thread. As I've admitted earlier, I did get carried away in an effort to make a case... particularly in the (a) - (e) points post. I re-read it and did realize I was making it sound as if CGC-board members were somehow alone responsible for some of the trends that I (as an opinion) think are quite negative for the hobby.

 

I originally started off by complaining of what I deemed an over-reaction to something, and then over-reacted myself. I won't apologize for the points I made, because I believe in them, but certainly do for the tone. And you're right... most of the issues I've had over time have been generated at Comics General until now. As a relative newcomer (1 year), it's a bit hard to grasp that different sectors of a Board can be so... well... different. But your point is taken that Gold deserves a bit more respect. I hope in the future to still be passionate in my posts, but try to make sure I don't cross the line into being rude.

 

[RedFury]

I hope you stick around, Tim. I thoroughly enjoy your posts. I think you make very good points and are a valuable contributor to the boards.

[esquirecomics]

Honesty I am not sure what other collecting fields you have knowledge of as I see the same type of grade demand in comics, coins, stamps and sports cards.

 

There is a huge jump from a Mint 9 to Gem Mint 10 in sports cards. I can take a brand new card worth maybe $5 grade it a 10 and it is worth $50, a 9 is worth $5. so the price difference between a 9.6 and 9.8 etc is there in EVERY SINGLE HOBBY!!

 

Well, I suspect this thread has pretty much run its course by now, but I'll respond to a couple of things, as with the above. Once again (and I think this is the 3rd time so far) I think this makes my point for me. The collectibles referenced above are all 2-dimensional objects. What you see in the holder is all there is, so it makes sense that ultra-levels of scrutiny come into play. Plus, the object can be as fully enjoyed in its holder as without.

 

But comics aren't coins or cards or stamps. They are periodicals. And as such, grading should have developed more similarly to books and magazines and pulps and paperbacks, of which they are part of the same family. The attempt to micro-analyze comic book grades as if they were hard-metal coins with scientifically-observable patterns of wear was always ludicrous from the start. As for "every single hobby"... no way! There is no such thing as 9.6s and 9.8s in any other arena of the book/periodicals market... and any attempt to do so would have the grader laughed out of the room. Similarly, if a dust-jacket is shredded, missing about a third of it's structure, and barely clinging to the book... there are not a lot of folks who would care if the the lower spine-corner was also touched-up with a marker, and hence "restored"!

 

 

I completely agree with you on the above. I collect rare books and all sorts of historical documents. Paper is paper yet the comic book community views grading far different than any of the collectible markets. Restoration/conservation is viewed completely differently too, for little to no discernible reasons.

 

At times it is very frustrating to say the least.

[rjpb]

Honesty I am not sure what other collecting fields you have knowledge of as I see the same type of grade demand in comics, coins, stamps and sports cards.

 

There is a huge jump from a Mint 9 to Gem Mint 10 in sports cards. I can take a brand new card worth maybe $5 grade it a 10 and it is worth $50, a 9 is worth $5. so the price difference between a 9.6 and 9.8 etc is there in EVERY SINGLE HOBBY!!

 

Well, I suspect this thread has pretty much run its course by now, but I'll respond to a couple of things, as with the above. Once again (and I think this is the 3rd time so far) I think this makes my point for me. The collectibles referenced above are all 2-dimensional objects. What you see in the holder is all there is, so it makes sense that ultra-levels of scrutiny come into play. Plus, the object can be as fully enjoyed in its holder as without.

 

But comics aren't coins or cards or stamps. They are periodicals. And as such, grading should have developed more similarly to books and magazines and pulps and paperbacks, of which they are part of the same family. The attempt to micro-analyze comic book grades as if they were hard-metal coins with scientifically-observable patterns of wear was always ludicrous from the start. As for "every single hobby"... no way! There is no such thing as 9.6s and 9.8s in any other arena of the book/periodicals market... and any attempt to do so would have the grader laughed out of the room. Similarly, if a dust-jacket is shredded, missing about a third of it's structure, and barely clinging to the book... there are not a lot of folks who would care if the the lower spine-corner was also touched-up with a marker, and hence "restored"!

 

 

I completely agree with you on the above. I collect rare books and all sorts of historical documents. Paper is paper yet the comic book community views grading far different than any of the collectible markets. Restoration/conservation is viewed completely differently too, for little to no discernible reasons.

 

At times it is very frustrating to say the least.

 

The purple label has definitely stigmatized restoration even more. It seems prior to CGC that minor restoration ( color touch, tear seals and the like) was treated more like other flaws that some found deal killers, but others could live with - like spine splits or detached centerfolds, and the lower the grade one was willing to accept, the less restoration mattered. To some extent this is still true, especially if books are kept raw, but just the idea of restoration now relegates a book as unacceptable in the minds of many, too the point where some who would be happy with a 2.5 Universal won't look at a 5.0 with minor resto, the lower number in a sea of blue easier to accept than a blob of purple.

 

 

 

 

[ciorac]

You guys have a lot more information than me and I appreciate the information. Now that I recall, there was a book or two I got from World's Finest that had a suspiciously odd cover texture. Perhaps it was dry cleaned. Always wondered about that. A lot of us were in a vaccuum back in the day.

 

Probably was washed. He kept a "clean" inventory.

[Ted Knight]

You guys have a lot more information than me and I appreciate the information. Now that I recall, there was a book or two I got from World's Finest that had a suspiciously odd cover texture. Perhaps it was dry cleaned. Always wondered about that. A lot of us were in a vaccuum back in the day.

 

Probably was washed. He kept a "clean" inventory.

Sounds like a lot of his books were spic and span!

http://www.spicnspan.com/