WARNING: Tec 34 on eBay is a cracked RESTORED, being sold as Unrestored!

[Old Fashion PB and J]

Im gonna go ahead and disagree with you here. Disclosure is necessary in this hobby. What you see as ultra-obsessive to me is just wanting to be told the truth. Ommittance is no different than a lie IMO. And when you KNOW for fact what work has been done to a book, but would leave it out for the sake of profit there is a problem. Especially when as a seller you have a pattern of such behavior. I agree the 10x difference in price for a 9.4 to 9.6 book is ridiculous, but to state that on a low grade book it does not matter is sad. There is a big monetary difference between an unrestored and restored book. Just scraping some glue or CT can significantly raise the value of a book, just as replacing staples or chemical cleans can make value plummett.

[Bookery]

Just scraping some glue or CT can significantly raise the value of a book, just as replacing staples or chemical cleans can make value plummett.

 

And you make my point for me. I don't blame CGC for going the Purple Label route in the beginning because they couldn't have forseen the problems... but unfortunately it turns out that the comics community just can't deal with it in a rational manner. People wouldn't be out there damaging books and scraping glue off, etc., if it weren't for the fact that people treat even the most microscopic "restoration" as a cross to a vampire.

 

Minor things should have small amounts of affect on value. But that's not the case. The tiniest things now create utter panic in the market, and in turn breed the desire for some people to either capitalize on it in less than honest ways, or simply scramble to try and save their "investments" in any way they can.

 

If the difference in a 9.8 vs. 9.6 value were a reasonable differential, there probably wouldn't be many risking the buy-crack-press-resub route. It wouldn't be cost-effective for the number of times it didn't work vs. the small but reasonable increase in value for the times it did.

 

If buyers looked at a color-touched bindery chip as a small defect in the overall scheme of things and gave the book value accordingly, there wouldn't be folks chipping off the corner in order to avoid as much as a 90% drop in value all because the label-sticker is tinted purple.

 

The OCD's are now running the market and destroying it for everyone else. And they are creating a host of "scams" that wouldn't even exist otherwise, and therefore ultimately destroying it for themselves as well.

 

Anway... I know I'm wasting my breath. Logic has no home here. Flame on at your convenience.

 

 

[bluechip]

The root of the problem is that some people care too much about how damage occured to a book than they do about how much the damage is. And that some people don't really care, but they like how that excess caring impacts the value.

 

Books are called restored when the grade has not been improved (or there would never be any such thing as a .5 restored book). Based on even a cursory comparison between this and other 1.5 books, there is absolutely no question that if this book can get the grade with a whole boatload of pinholes in it, then it would get the same grade if the glue was considered a defect and the staple was missing. Some people not only placed lesser value on such books based on a personal reaction to how they think the damage occured but wanted others to behave toward the books in the same way, whether or not they felt the same way. When dealing with low grade books like this one it is simply inarguable that what the label is judging is not the grade or the damage but the thought process behind a defect.

 

That is clear by the argument going back and forth in the emails. One guy saying the glue got there accidentally, and the other guy saying it got there intentionally, and both sides accepting that the determination, one way or the other, makes all the difference in the world.

 

And if you accept that as a necessary thing -- if the intent behind a dab of glue (or any other defect allowed by the the grade) is supposed to reduce a book 95% as opposed to an identical book with the same, or even more, glue that was acquired accidentally -- then you can only be consistent if you also accept that pressed books would be valued differently based on whether the pressing occured deliberately or accidentally. (and, at least, in those cases, the books are almost uniformly increased in grade and appearance)

 

 

[Pat Calhoun]

Pulpguide- interesting and helpful analysis- I'm light years away from the whole grade thing- but your words seem to sum up a dangerous trend in the hobby pretty well...

thanks, Pat

[Bookery]

You are absolutely right, bluechip.

 

This is something I've thought about before as well. It's as if the hobby has become infatuated with "thought-crimes". Collecting comics has turned into a Philip K. Dikc (to avoid the spoon) nightmare!

 

[Bookery]

 

BTW-- I can't think of a single other collectible in which "intent" exists as a collectibility factor. Does it make any difference if a coin face was scratched up because it was jangling around in a bag full of other coins or because someone tried to use a toothbrush to clean it?

 

I don't know... am seriously asking...

 

 

[ciorac]

BTW-- I can't think of a single other collectible in which "intent" exists as a collectibility factor. Does it make any difference if a coin face was scratched up because it was jangling around in a bag full of other coins or because someone tried to use a toothbrush to clean it?

 

I don't know... am seriously asking...

 

 

I don't think intent factors into at all. Unless I'm completely off base. I'd assume CGC would grade a book with a dab of glue over a torn area as restored, vs a dab of glue that on a non-torn area unrestored.

 

I'm struggling to come up with other examples where intent has been brought into question.

 

Color touch perhaps?

 

A stray felt pen mark somewhere on the color vs one over what would normally be a color breaking crease?

 

Easy to make a judgment call there too. Intent is implicit.

[jgallo]

BTW-- I can't think of a single other collectible in which "intent" exists as a collectibility factor. Does it make any difference if a coin face was scratched up because it was jangling around in a bag full of other coins or because someone tried to use a toothbrush to clean it?

 

I don't know... am seriously asking...

 

 

Yes it does, polish a coin and it is worth almost nothing it doesn't matter if it was polished to many it look nice 100 years ago or polished to try and grade higher, so that is a perfect example of intent.

 

Sports cards are the same way, it doesn't matter if a card was trimmed by a kid 50 years ago or by a scum dealer trying to sharpen the corners it is junk once it is trimmed.

 

So to me the problem with his listing was he was well aware of additional defects that people would want to know about and he did not declare them. IMO that is out and out fraud. If I bought this book and then found out the staples were replaced it would be returned.

 

Lack of information is one thing, this is a long time dealer that choose not to disclose certain information because he felt it would impact his bottom line.

 

That along with the fact that there is a history makes this thread valid.

 

James G

[bluechip]

 

It's a very real shame and all so unnecessary.

 

 

I think some people believe it is necessary to their business model to have extreme value differences between low grade books based on resto demonization, and extreme value differences between high grade books, based on label numbers. Both are ways of spreading the margins between the buy and sell to bring it closer to the old model of wholesale and retail collectibles. The more valuable these things get, the more people are going to chafe at the notion of buying an investment for half its resale value (would you purposely buy stocks "retail" and sell them "wholesale"?); wild fluctuations in value based on labels provide new ways of spreading the gap between purchase and resale price, if you can get the book into a "better" label than the one it was in when you bought it.

 

 

[Bookery]

BTW-- I can't think of a single other collectible in which "intent" exists as a collectibility factor. Does it make any difference if a coin face was scratched up because it was jangling around in a bag full of other coins or because someone tried to use a toothbrush to clean it?

 

I don't know... am seriously asking...

 

 

Yes it does, polish a coin and it is worth almost nothing it doesn't matter if it was polished to many it look nice 100 years ago or polished to try and grade higher, so that is a perfect example of intent.

 

Sports cards are the same way, it doesn't matter if a card was trimmed by a kid 50 years ago or by a scum dealer trying to sharpen the corners it is junk once it is trimmed.

 

James G

 

Well... we seem to be discussing different things. In your above examples there is consistency, which is how it should be. The one is "polished"... period. The other is "trimmed"... period. But in comics there isn't always consistency. Glue dripped on a corner is unrestored and worth "x". Glue applied to a corner is restored and worth 1/10 of "x".

 

Both have glue. But one is deemed near-valueless compared to the other not because of the defect itself, but because of whether the defect came about intentionally or accidentally. Or as another example... a bindery-chip created at the factory vs. someone chipping off a corner. Exact same defect in terms of physical appearance. But one will be considered by many to be more valuable than another, assuming the history of each is known.

 

So actually, your examples of coins and cards above just goes again to make my (and bluechip's) point. "Intent" has no bearing on value in the other collectibles, but does in comics.

 

[mt1000]

Pulpguide i diagree with you. the original listing said unrestored (not sure if you caught that), but the book wasnt unrestored was it? Wouldnt you want to know what you were buying He bought it restored and failed to mention some things. The revised listing was diffrent with notes of glue, then when called out again he finally mention staples. So im sorry i like to be told the truth about stuff i buy. While we all get the book is low grade THAT was never the question.

[mt1000]

Just scraping some glue or CT can significantly raise the value of a book, just as replacing staples or chemical cleans can make value plummett.

 

And you make my point for me. I don't blame CGC for going the Purple Label route in the beginning because they couldn't have forseen the problems... but unfortunately it turns out that the comics community just can't deal with it in a rational manner. People wouldn't be out there damaging books and scraping glue off, etc., if it weren't for the fact that people treat even the most microscopic "restoration" as a cross to a vampire.

 

Minor things should have small amounts of affect on value. But that's not the case. The tiniest things now create utter panic in the market, and in turn breed the desire for some people to either capitalize on it in less than honest ways, or simply scramble to try and save their "investments" in any way they can.

 

If the difference in a 9.8 vs. 9.6 value were a reasonable differential, there probably wouldn't be many risking the buy-crack-press-resub route. It wouldn't be cost-effective for the number of times it didn't work vs. the small but reasonable increase in value for the times it did.

 

If buyers looked at a color-touched bindery chip as a small defect in the overall scheme of things and gave the book value accordingly, there wouldn't be folks chipping off the corner in order to avoid as much as a 90% drop in value all because the label-sticker is tinted purple.

 

The OCD's are now running the market and destroying it for everyone else. And they are creating a host of "scams" that wouldn't even exist otherwise, and therefore ultimately destroying it for themselves as well.

 

Anway... I know I'm wasting my breath. Logic has no home here. Flame on at your convenience.

 

 

As long as disclosure is there then it isnt a problem your missing the point when someone willingly leaves out the FACT's. So maybe you are waisting your time cause apparently we are all horrible people looking out for each other (thumbs u

[Bat-Man]

Let me get this straight... this is a book that has been STITCHED. There are two-dozen little holes all up and down the spine. These are CLEARLY EVIDENT in the scans. Moreover-- the seller mentions the trace amounts of glue which one wouldn't see in the scans. And all anyone on these boards cares about is that the seller didn't mention a replaced staple? Seriously? And for that we get multiple posts calling the seller a scammer?

 

It's STITCHED! It's GLUED! It's clearly a nice-looking but nevertheless low-grade copy just like the seller claims. Oops-- forgotten to mention a replaced staple.

 

WHO THE *SPOON!* CARES?!!!

 

yeesh.

 

I’m not going to take part in a debate about the morality or current state of the comic book mindset. But I see that what your saying and it is understandable, though in today’s time I do not agree at all.

 

The fact is the "crazy" current mindset which you describe has become part of what the current comic book world is, and its part of the valuation now. ( 9.4 s 9.8s etc.) (restored vs qualified vs unrestored)

 

The bottom line is a RESTORED or QUALIFIED book is worth far less in virtually any grade comparison, and it all boils down to money. An unrestored, genuine, non-manipulated book is worth far more than any other book, without question.

 

This seller is a prime example of someone who was trying to take advantage of the system, why else would he have cracked the book to flip immediately after he won it?

 

He bought a book that was CGC’d restored, cracked it out, than listed it as an unrestored book in his sub-title and majority of his description. If that is not manipulation of the truth I don’t know what is. He then only points out, and tries his best to down play the glue restoration at the very end of his listing, after paragraphs of calling it unrestored.

 

He completely leaves out the fact that the staple is replaced. Which makes the book an automatic QUALIFIED or a RESTORED book if the glue is still as present as it was when it was cracked.

 

The listing had already been bid up into the mid $400’s within one day of him listing it as unrestored, and he paid $585 for it. So logically we can assume it would have gone way past what he paid for it by the end, on the false pretense that it was Unrestored.

 

The bottom line here is someone was trying to cheat and lie to get a profit, there is no other getting around it.

 

It is morally correct and very important to point out someone out who is trying to cheat and lie, in order to make a quick buck, in whatever era we are in the comic world. And those who see a cheater and don’t call it out are just as guilty. These boards are a wonderful thing because of this ability to call cheaters out.

 

That's it. 'Nuff Said.

[nearmint]

Mark has relisted the book with full disclosure.

[bluechip]

Setting aside the issue of the staple, the complaint here would have been the same if there had only been the glue on the book. People would still have said he must call it restored because CGC called it restored. I would tend to agree to agree that the residual glue, which was there from the binding process, did not restore the book. And, I would agree with people here who say that a wrinkled book which has been professionally pressed out has been restored. But, while I think both should be noted with words instead of colors, it is true that some people are extremely determined to devalue books in purple labels and will expend much energy to devalue them. So that, in itself, has become the thing that needs to be disclosed, if you want your buyer to be informed. In this case, it would be fair for him to say that the book is not restored but that CGC called it restored. That would prevent the buyer from buying a book that was going to be a target for devaluation by deterined people. But it would also be fair for the seller to show the buyers any information he may have which would show that other books with similar glue were not called restored, as well as any other information showing inconsistencies that worked to the detriment of some books while to the benefit of others. But, once novice collectors hear that it's more complicated than blue good purple bad, they seldom have the reaction that the most persistent folk would like them to have. In fact, that are more likely to feel that 1) that "novice-protection" allows for fleecing the novice and gaming the system as much as it ever did, merely in different ways, and/or 2) that it's as irrational as pulp paper indicated. And the natural conclusions don't always make people more likely to want to invest.

[aggr1103]

It is morally correct and very important to point out someone out who is trying to cheat and lie, in order to make a quick buck, in whatever era we are in the comic world. And those who see a cheater and don’t call it out are just as guilty. These boards are a wonderful thing because of this ability to call cheaters out.

 

That's it. 'Nuff Said.

 

This thread is so

 

Not to derail, or beat a dead horse, but since you used the "M" word I have to ask yours and others opinion about this in comparison to a pressed book.

 

If this books had defects that could be pressed out, and there was no glue, missing staple, or any other potential restoration on the book and the dealer had done this, without disclosing the pressing was done, should it garner this much attention?

 

I ask that because I've often wondered what would happen if CGC offered full disclosure during pre-screens where submitters could acknowledge if they know whether or not the book has been pressed. I sometimes wonder how many folks would actually do the morally right thing and be honest. We all know that pressing is done for the very same reasons you mentioned - to make a quick buck.

[nearmint]

It is morally correct and very important to point out someone out who is trying to cheat and lie, in order to make a quick buck, in whatever era we are in the comic world. And those who see a cheater and don’t call it out are just as guilty. These boards are a wonderful thing because of this ability to call cheaters out.

 

That's it. 'Nuff Said.

 

This thread is so

 

Not to derail, or beat a dead horse, but since you used the "M" word I have to ask yours and others opinion about this in comparison to a pressed book.

 

If this books had defects that could be pressed out, and there was no glue, missing staple, or any other potential restoration on the book and the dealer had done this, without disclosing the pressing was done, should it garner this much attention?

 

I ask that because I've often wondered what would happen if CGC offered full disclosure during pre-screens where submitters could acknowledge if they know whether or not the book has been pressed. I sometimes wonder how many folks would actually do the morally right thing and be honest. We all know that pressing is done for the very same reasons you mentioned - to make a quick buck.

 

Pressing threads are located in Comics General.

[Bookery]

This seller is a prime example of someone who was trying to take advantage of the system, why else would he have cracked the book to flip immediately after he won it?

 

He bought a book that was CGC’d restored, cracked it out, than listed it as an unrestored book in his sub-title and majority of his description. If that is not manipulation of the truth I don’t know what is. He then only points out, and tries his best to down play the glue restoration at the very end of his listing, after paragraphs of calling it unrestored.

 

He completely leaves out the fact that the staple is replaced. Which makes the book an automatic QUALIFIED or a RESTORED book if the glue is still as present as it was when it was cracked.

 

The listing had already been bid up into the mid $400’s within one day of him listing it as unrestored, and he paid $585 for it. So logically we can assume it would have gone way past what he paid for it by the end, on the false pretense that it was Unrestored.

 

The bottom line here is someone was trying to cheat and lie to get a profit, there is no other getting around it.

 

Argh! The points are...

 

(a) If buyers weren't so anal as to obsess over a replaced staple on a book that's still a 1.5 no matter what, then nobody would be trying "to take advantage" of the system. How can a book like this possibly be worth any different whether the staple's been replaced or not? It's patently absurd! If somebody is intentionally lying about a triviality such as this in this instance, it's only because "the cgc community" has created such an idiotic potentiality in the first place.

 

(b) I'd certainly crack a book like this out of a slab... it should never have been slabbed in the first place! It should never be re-slabbed, therefore the purple vs. blue label is irrelevent! My low-grade collectors don't want their books slabbed... they want them low-grade so they can look at them. If you people are manipulating the market (and you are) to the point where an already heavily-damaged book can be worth hundreds of dollars different depending on whether the staple's been replaced or not, you are ultimately driving people away from this hobby.

 

© How much detail on a 1.5 book needs to be presented to satisfy board members? Can it ever really be enough? It's already been established that some would return the book if they discovered the (one) replaced staple. Would you also return it if a tiny tear on p.17 wasn't mentioned? How about a speck of ant-spit on p.39?

 

(d) Again... I don't know if this guy has a pattern of "crookedness" or not... but what I'm saying is when you start a thread attacking and labeling a seller as a crook as was done here, I go in expecting to learn about some egregious offender I should avoid like the plague. Instead I see a firestorm over trivia. Now I'm being told he has a "pattern"-- but why should I believe it? Maybe it's just more silliness maskerading as an expose. Then when something really serious comes along, I (and many others) may be less likely to even bother with the thread. It's been asked here numerous times why people keep buying from Robojo when the Boards have warned about him so many times? Maybe it's because people come on here and see what non-CGC members see as insanity, and avoid the really useful warnings as well.

 

(e) There are many people throughout the country that will attest to the fact that I am as honest and scrupulous a dealer as there is. But I will never ever put a book up for sale on these boards. If I were to make a mistake-- or more likely not even make a mistake but just not do something in exactly the way some members demand I should-- I would have my reputation trashed in dozens of posts through no fault of my own. It isn't worth the risk. And there are many others that feel as I do.

 

(f) As for the book being "manipulated" (by a replaced staple)... again... how can a book be any MORE manipulated than being ripped out of a binding where it's been threaded and glued? And then it's been taped after that? The staple can be replaced with a rubber band at this point, and can it really matter all that much!!!

 

 

[seanfingh]

 

 

(e) There are many people throughout the country that will attest to the fact that I am as honest and scrupulous a dealer as there is.

 

I will attest to this. <3 Plus you grade more harshly than CGC in many instances.

 

But I will never ever put a book up for sale on these boards.

 

More for me!!! <3 <3

 

[Old Fashion PB and J]

I can't take it.. Just everything being posted is such horsekrap that I am gonna be ill.

 

Seriously.. Thank you for letting me know how and what I should collect. And at what point does something like a replaced staple become rellevant again?