Golden Apple Comics up for auction

[143ksk]

 

Hopefully the store kept good financial records not only of sales, but also any debts they may own. Even if they owe money to the IRS you would be buying those debts.

 

There's really no reason to purchase the debts. An asset purchase is the way to go--the seller can pay off the debts (or not...) from the proceeds of the sale.

[supapimp]

sorry but i couldn't live in LA.

[El Toro Rojo]

look at the seller's name and feedback score of 1897. These kinds of businesses are often sold through a broker, just like the listing indicates. Have you ever thought of looking at a shop? I've dug into it a bit. Small businesses are sold sort of like real estate.

 

What makes you think this isn't legit?

 

If I lived in LA area, I would seriously investigate this. For sale for first time in 32 years means the owner is probably thinking about retiring. The name is established. Yes, the price seems a little low, but I'll bet if you dig on the financials it is probably about right, if not a little high.

 

I dug into buying an established shop walking distance to my house a couple of years ago, but the owner was deluded. He wanted on-going franchise fees and too much cash up front.

 

Any former shop owners on here who can weigh in with thoughts?

 

I owned a comic book shop in the 90's. If I posted an obscure ad like this on Ebay to sell it, I would hope people would make fun of me and teach me a lesson in how to list my business. There is no useful information on that page whatsoever regarding clientele numbers, what the inventory looks like, property ownership/lease contract, basic P&L information or any historical data - all of which can be displayed in such a way that they are not disclosing confidential information - yet giving people a better picture of what he's selling.

 

Whether it's legit or not, whether it's worth it or not - it's just a poor listing, and that's why we're making fun of it. People are posting more information about GA comics in this thread that can be found in the actual listing to buy the business.

 

Did you own a major name in comics retailing? this is a marketing tactic and nothing more.

 

also -- http://www.comicsbeat.com/2011/12/27/for-sale-las-iconc-golden-apple-comic-shop/

 

it's legit.

 

Man, Trev - we're going to have to agree to disagree. I have been in advertising and marketing for about 15 years (10 of it in an agency), and I teach it at Montana State University.

 

I don't want to be a know-it-all here, but I will say with professional experience and 100% certainty: if it's a marketing tactic, it's succeeding at getting people who don't have the money to buy it, the assets to get a loan with a bank or live in a location to own it - to discuss it at length, which has virtually zero value in terms of marketing.

 

In terms of professionalism and how a business wants to portray itself and it's 32-year old brand identity (which has lots of value) - it falls flat. It's a vague, incomplete, unprofessional and ambiguous listing that misses just about every single advertising and marketing requirement for something to be sold. That ad does more damage to the brand identity of GA comics than it does to help it. It creates an air of conjecture, guessing and gossiping - things that marketing is supposed to control, but does not in this example. People who think this is how you generate "buzz" by selling something do not understand how effective marketing works. And, that's not a shot at you, that's a shot at whomever listed this on Ebay.

 

If a broker can't be bothered to listen, understand and sell his client's business - regardless of what it is, then they need to look for another broker. If he sells his business via Ebay and gets a positive feedback from it, I'll gladly stand corrected.

 

Edit: And just for the record, I don't have issue with the value here - I have issue with the way they are listing an obviously valuable business. It's a shame that it's being sold, and even a bigger shame that whomever is selling it is omitting important details and information, whether purposefully or not.

 

Howdy, Dr. Balls (love typing that!)

 

I also work in Marketing (20 years+) and I think putting this on eBay was a brilliant move that breaks all the "normal" rules of marketing.

 

By placing this on eBay, the broker has gotten coverage from Bleeding Cool, UGO, The Beat, basically every comic book news outlet where his potential new buyer would see it, front and center. I'm curious what other possible method would have been more effective to reach these qualified leads, i.e. someone who would want to own a comic book store.

 

Every semester I have to encourage the new interns that when it comes to marketing in 2011 and beyond THERE ARE NO RULES. This is proof of that.

[dem1138]

My wife grew up around the corner from this store and I go there every time we visit LA. The store has an enormous amount of untapped potential for the right buyer that is not being utilized by the current owner. Their customer base is incredible and the location is fantastic. The right buyer could turn this into a gold mine.

Regardless, the asking price is probably way too high, and their valuation on their back issue inventory is aggressive at best.

[ComicConnoisseur]

My wife grew up around the corner from this store and I go there every time we visit LA. The store has an enormous amount of untapped potential for the right buyer that is not being utilized by the current owner. Their customer base is incredible and the location is fantastic. The right buyer could turn this into a gold mine.

Regardless, the asking price is probably way too high, and their valuation on their back issue inventory is aggressive at best.

+1

Risky with digital comics ready to go mainstream,and Diamond rumored to have money problems.

[Annihilus]

I also work in Marketing (20 years+) and I think putting this on eBay was a brilliant move that breaks all the "normal" rules of marketing.

 

By placing this on eBay, the broker has gotten coverage from Bleeding Cool, UGO, The Beat, basically every comic book news outlet where his potential new buyer would see it, front and center. I'm curious what other possible method would have been more effective to reach these qualified leads, i.e. someone who would want to own a comic book store.

 

Every semester I have to encourage the new interns that when it comes to marketing in 2011 and beyond THERE ARE NO RULES. This is proof of that.

 

Absolutely. People are talking about it. Regardless of the accurateness/completeness of the listing, listing this on eBay will (and has already) get the word out that the business is for sale. This information likely wouldn't have reached nearly the same exposure otherwise. I don't see how that is any kind of detriment.

[markseifert]

Risky with digital comics ready to go mainstream,and Diamond rumored to have money problems.

 

Someone like Earth 2 is going to pick this up in the current market and look like geniuses in a year or two. Golden Apple is exactly the kind of store you want in the coming digital era.

[Moondog]

 

Hopefully the store kept good financial records not only of sales, but also any debts they may own. Even if they owe money to the IRS you would be buying those debts.

 

There's really no reason to purchase the debts. An asset purchase is the way to go--the seller can pay off the debts (or not...) from the proceeds of the sale.

 

Steve's right. No one will buy the GA corporation. Then you acquire all the debts and any other liabilities. It's no different than any other small business. Most just fade away.

 

Bill was my friend and collegue. We did our best to shake things up in the Direct Line Group, but the deck was stacked against us then - and it's worse today for comics retailers.

 

Simply put, it's really hard to make money selling pop culture items like comics, action figures, games, statues, etc. I hold Retailers like Richard Evans in the highest regard. They know their market, merchandise, customers and hire the right people. And it's hard work to do it right.

 

I hope Sharon Liebowitz enjoys her retirement. She deserves a long rest.

[Comic Book Guy]

It's a legitimate sale, but the details are reserved for the serious bidders only. If you are seriously interested in the store, I can put you in touch directly with the owner of the store. If I had the credit or cash available, I'd consider it myself.

 

Joel

 

 

I love Golden Apple, It's my favorite store in the L.A area. They have awesome contacts in the comic and movie business with some of the best signings/events that I have been to. The owners have always been top-notch and super friendly.

[rjrjr]

I'm sure it is legit.

 

You should buy this, pick up the remants of the Atomic empire, and make yourself the largest comic retailer in the country.

 

But you'd still be smaller than Hastings.

[Bookery]

 

I've seen a number of comic shops and other small businesses over the years try to sell their "brand name", and unless a buyer is really foolish, it can't be done. There is no comic shop in the country whose name is so valuable that it is worth purchasing. I own the largest comic shop in the nation, have been in business 28 years, and still can't imagine anyone paying me a premium for my name.

 

The problem is comics shops, even large ones or chains, aren't major corporations. They don't have boards of directors, publicly owned stocks, etc., that insure some continuity. Golden Apple is famous primarily for its celebrity contacts and major signing events. If the new owners don't have the know-how or insider contacts to maintain these, the name Golden Apple won't mean a lot after a fairly short time. Likewise, my store is well known for certain things. If the new owners do things better than me, then their store may be more successful and well known than mine. If they do things worse, the name soon won't amount to a hill of beans.

 

Golden Apple may have a great location... but I'm assuming they don't own it (I'm actually one up on them there... I own my buildings). So a new owner still has to negotiate with a landlord. It would be just as easy (and a lot cheaper) to wait for GA to close down, then approach the landlord and begin a new shop in the same location.

 

As for inventory... generally large inventories, even good ones, sell for 10-cents on the dollar (or less) if someone is willing to buy it all at once. If GA has $300,000 in inventory, that's only $30,000. It also appears that nearly all of their inventory is "new" (based on sale percentages). So even if you wanted to replace all of the toys and graphic novels and games directly from Diamond and other distributors, you could do so for around $150k. That means you're still paying an additional $450,000 for the GA name.

 

I've never been there, but I hear it's a great store. I wish them the very best. But I really doubt they will be able to sell their operation as a complete entity.

[Dale Roberts]

I've seen a number of comic shops and other small businesses over the years try to sell their "brand name", and unless a buyer is really foolish, it can't be done. There is no comic shop in the country whose name is so valuable that it is worth purchasing. I own the largest comic shop in the nation, have been in business 28 years, and still can't imagine anyone paying me a premium for my name.

 

The problem is comics shops, even large ones or chains, aren't major corporations. They don't have boards of directors, publicly owned stocks, etc., that insure some continuity. Golden Apple is famous primarily for its celebrity contacts and major signing events. If the new owners don't have the know-how or insider contacts to maintain these, the name Golden Apple won't mean a lot after a fairly short time. Likewise, my store is well known for certain things. If the new owners do things better than me, then their store may be more successful and well known than mine. If they do things worse, the name soon won't amount to a hill of beans.

 

Golden Apple may have a great location... but I'm assuming they don't own it (I'm actually one up on them there... I own my buildings). So a new owner still has to negotiate with a landlord. It would be just as easy (and a lot cheaper) to wait for GA to close down, then approach the landlord and begin a new shop in the same location.

 

As for inventory... generally large inventories, even good ones, sell for 10-cents on the dollar (or less) if someone is willing to buy it all at once. If GA has $300,000 in inventory, that's only $30,000. It also appears that nearly all of their inventory is "new" (based on sale percentages). So even if you wanted to replace all of the toys and graphic novels and games directly from Diamond and other distributors, you could do so for around $150k. That means you're still paying an additional $450,000 for the GA name.

 

I've never been there, but I hear it's a great store. I wish them the very best. But I really doubt they will be able to sell their operation as a complete entity.

 

right now, Chris Foss is somewhere crying...

[Bookery]

I've seen a number of comic shops and other small businesses over the years try to sell their "brand name", and unless a buyer is really foolish, it can't be done. There is no comic shop in the country whose name is so valuable that it is worth purchasing. I own the largest comic shop in the nation, have been in business 28 years, and still can't imagine anyone paying me a premium for my name.

 

right now, Chris Foss is somewhere crying...

 

Nah. Of course, I am aware that the term "largest" can have different meanings, and it's all hype how one presents it. I have the largest shop in terms of physical size (16,250 sq. ft.). However, because no building in my town is big enough to house us, our "shop" is actually two buildings on opposite sides of the street (but still one bank account, one register ring-in at the end of the day, one business license, and no duplication of products as in a "chain").

 

Chris's "Heroes & Dragons" is 12,000 sq. ft. making it the largest shop "under one roof" (which makes me extremely envious... that's something I've always wanted).

So I'm crying more than Chris!

 

Mile High's main store is 10,000 sq. ft., if I recall, and appears to come in at #3.

 

However, Mile High is the "largest shop" in terms of number of items in inventory. Metropolis is probably the largest in terms of dollars-in-inventory and net wealth. I'm not sure which is the largest chain... probably Bedrock or Graham Crackers. Golden Apple was at one time the most famous, but in terms of publicity may have been surpassed by Meltdown or Metropolis.

 

So actually, there are several of us that have equal claims to being the "largest" depending on how it's defined.

 

But I'm going to hype it just the same.

 

 

 

 

[Dr. Balls]

 

Every semester I have to encourage the new interns that when it comes to marketing in 2011 and beyond THERE ARE NO RULES. This is proof of that.

 

As I have said, the issue is not with listing it on Ebay, the issue is that they blatantly leave out critical information. I can appreciate a listing on Ebay; it gets loads of traffic. I generated effective marketing for my work on Ebay in 1998. It's not a new concept. What I can't appreciate is the half-@ssed approach to how they did it.

 

And there are rules, especially if you want to protect the brand identity of the client. I don't think you can just market anything, towards any audience, utilizing any method and expect it to be positive 100% of the time. To discard research, demographics, psychology and other design-centric theories goes against the actual definition of the word: "marketing".

 

Tossing aside 32 years of established branding to opt for an ambiguous, uninformative Ebay listing is not what I would call an example of effective marketing in 2011.

 

 

[brendanb438]

I've seen a number of comic shops and other small businesses over the years try to sell their "brand name", and unless a buyer is really foolish, it can't be done. There is no comic shop in the country whose name is so valuable that it is worth purchasing. I own the largest comic shop in the nation, have been in business 28 years, and still can't imagine anyone paying me a premium for my name.

 

right now, Chris Foss is somewhere crying...

 

Nah. Of course, I am aware that the term "largest" can have different meanings, and it's all hype how one presents it. I have the largest shop in terms of physical size (16,250 sq. ft.). However, because no building in my town is big enough to house us, our "shop" is actually two buildings on opposite sides of the street (but still one bank account, one register ring-in at the end of the day, one business license, and no duplication of products as in a "chain").

 

Chris's "Heroes & Dragons" is 12,000 sq. ft. making it the largest shop "under one roof" (which makes me extremely envious... that's something I've always wanted).

So I'm crying more than Chris!

 

Mile High's main store is 10,000 sq. ft., if I recall, and appears to come in at #3.

 

However, Mile High is the "largest shop" in terms of number of items in inventory. Metropolis is probably the largest in terms of dollars-in-inventory and net wealth. I'm not sure which is the largest chain... probably Bedrock or Graham Crackers. Golden Apple was at one time the most famous, but in terms of publicity may have been surpassed by Meltdown or Metropolis.

 

So actually, there are several of us that have equal claims to being the "largest" depending on how it's defined.

 

But I'm going to hype it just the same.

 

 

 

 

Cool to see the store represented on these boards. I haven't been to your store in about 2 years, I need to stop in sometime soon. Any back issues of Walking Dead in the inventory?

[Bookery]

Cool to see the store represented on these boards. I haven't been to your store in about 2 years, I need to stop in sometime soon. Any back issues of Walking Dead in the inventory?

 

Nothing early, unfortunately

 

[Dr. Balls]

I've seen a number of comic shops and other small businesses over the years try to sell their "brand name", and unless a buyer is really foolish, it can't be done. There is no comic shop in the country whose name is so valuable that it is worth purchasing. I own the largest comic shop in the nation, have been in business 28 years, and still can't imagine anyone paying me a premium for my name.

 

You just negated your statement by exemplifying the fact you're the largest in the nation and have been in business for 28 years. If that statement has no perceived value, why would you even mention it? You're attempting to sway my perceptions just by verbalizing your credibility - that's how branding works.

 

It has the prospect of value and the possibility of turning your company's identity into a worthwhile and sellable business attribute. If you've built your business for three decades and you perceive it's brand identity isn't worth anything, it's not the fault of the buyer for not recognizing it's value, it's the fault of the owner for ignoring a very important aspect of the business.

 

But, if you think that buying a company's brand identity is foolish, I'm not going to be able to convince you otherwise. People can't be convinced that advertising works - they need to see it firsthand, and I find it unfortunate that you've been in the business that long and have such a negative view of something that works most of the time when utilized properly.

[the blob]

i think pulpguide's point is exactly spot on...he has the biggest store in the country and the brand name is so limited that very few of us avid collectors even know the name of his store! also probably doesn't help that it's not in a top 5 or 6 metro area.

 

mind you, amassing 16,000 square feet of space in whereever Ohio is a heckuvah lot cheaper than doing so in NYC or L.A., but it sounds pretty impressive nonetheless. pulp, is your place packed to the rafters with comics a la koch's warehouse or do you have a mix of books and what not in there are well?

 

at one point i knew a guy who had one of the largest vintage magazine warehouses/stores in the country. my guess is he had 8,000 square feet in manhattan. it was like a football field....shelves and shelves of magazines and stuff going back 80-100 years. his lease ran out, his rent was quadrupled and he had to dumpster 80% of it or face massive penalties in his lease. it was so sad. i grabbed what i could that he'd let me have, but I only had a studio apartment at the time and 25 boxes of magazines took up a big chunk of my apartment....if he had the time and the space he could have been selling the stuff on ebay for the rest of his life.

[Moondog]

I've seen a number of comic shops and other small businesses over the years try to sell their "brand name", and unless a buyer is really foolish, it can't be done. There is no comic shop in the country whose name is so valuable that it is worth purchasing. I own the largest comic shop in the nation, have been in business 28 years, and still can't imagine anyone paying me a premium for my name.

 

The problem is comics shops, even large ones or chains, aren't major corporations. They don't have boards of directors, publicly owned stocks, etc., that insure some continuity. Golden Apple is famous primarily for its celebrity contacts and major signing events. If the new owners don't have the know-how or insider contacts to maintain these, the name Golden Apple won't mean a lot after a fairly short time. Likewise, my store is well known for certain things. If the new owners do things better than me, then their store may be more successful and well known than mine. If they do things worse, the name soon won't amount to a hill of beans.

 

Golden Apple may have a great location... but I'm assuming they don't own it (I'm actually one up on them there... I own my buildings). So a new owner still has to negotiate with a landlord. It would be just as easy (and a lot cheaper) to wait for GA to close down, then approach the landlord and begin a new shop in the same location.

 

As for inventory... generally large inventories, even good ones, sell for 10-cents on the dollar (or less) if someone is willing to buy it all at once. If GA has $300,000 in inventory, that's only $30,000. It also appears that nearly all of their inventory is "new" (based on sale percentages). So even if you wanted to replace all of the toys and graphic novels and games directly from Diamond and other distributors, you could do so for around $150k. That means you're still paying an additional $450,000 for the GA name.

 

I've never been there, but I hear it's a great store. I wish them the very best. But I really doubt they will be able to sell their operation as a complete entity.

 

Moondog's was the only chain to have the cache to sell its name for a premium. We had systems in place that were the same from store to store, our accounting was done in a professional manner and the circumstances at that time of a public company wanting to buy a chain of stores like ours to expand across the country was unique. You actually knew what you were buying when you looked at the Moondog operation. It wasn't a mom and pop.

 

 

 

 

[Bookery]

I've seen a number of comic shops and other small businesses over the years try to sell their "brand name", and unless a buyer is really foolish, it can't be done. There is no comic shop in the country whose name is so valuable that it is worth purchasing. I own the largest comic shop in the nation, have been in business 28 years, and still can't imagine anyone paying me a premium for my name.

 

You just negated your statement by exemplifying the fact you're the largest in the nation and have been in business for 28 years. If that statement has no perceived value, why would you even mention it? You're attempting to sway my perceptions just by verbalizing your credibility - that's how branding works.

 

I'm not sure how you make this conclusion. I never said it had no perceived value... in fact in a subsequent post I specifically mention how I use it to hype the business. It has value in terms of getting people into the shop, buying collections, etc. That doesn't mean it has value in selling the business as a complete operation. Somebody may buy my stock, my fixtures, even my buildings. But if they paid a big premium for the name, it probably wouldn't pay off for them enough to make it a reasonable proposition. Those people who are used to coming here at this location would initially still do so even if the name changed... many probably wouldn't even notice a new sign atop the building. If the new owners were good, business would continue. If they were not, business would drop off regardless of whether it had my name or a new one.

 

It has the prospect of value and the possibility of turning your company's identity into a worthwhile and sellable business attribute. If you've built your business for three decades and you perceive it's brand identity isn't worth anything, it's not the fault of the buyer for not recognizing it's value, it's the fault of the owner for ignoring a very important aspect of the business.

 

But, if you think that buying a company's brand identity is foolish, I'm not going to be able to convince you otherwise.

 

I really can't fathom how you're coming to such conclusions. I said buying a comic shop's brand name is foolish, not brand names in general. Obviously GM, Sears, K-Mart, Apple, all have huge brand-name value. But most comics shops are single-owner operations or small partnerships. Once the owner is gone, the brand is gone. You can carry over a respected name for awhile... but once people realize it's not the same ownership, their decision to return isn't based on what the name is. When a CEO steps down at Wal-Mart, the corporate model doesn't shift. Now, Moondog pointed out he was able to sell his brand in the past. And I might have to amend my statement to say it's possible a "chain" of stores might have more saleable brand potential... a buyer gets a group of retail outlets, presumably already in successful areas, and doesn't have to go about initiating new businesses in multiple places. Mile High might be able to do it, Bedrock, etc. But even then-- those businesses are specifically identified with the characteristics of their individual owners. Once Richard or Chuck steps aside, is it really the same business? When the Sears CEO leaves, people don't say "well, now that Bob's gone, I'm not going back to Sears anymore". But with a comic shop, they identify the business with one (or two or three) individuals.

 

People can't be convinced that advertising works - they need to see it firsthand, and I find it unfortunate that you've been in the business that long and have such a negative view of something that works most of the time when utilized properly.

 

Who says advertising doesn't work? I'm talking about brand name in terms solely of selling off the business at a premium above and beyond the building value (if it's owned, not rented), stock, equipment, etc. And how am I being negative? I'm saying it's not a good deal for the buyer to pay a premium for the name of a LCS... any LCS, at least at this time and under current market conditions. I'm being positive in trying to save the buyer money he/she doesn't need to spend. I have made no other grand statements about brand names in general, or suggesting advertising doesn't work, or intimating some sort of general malaise.

 

Yes, I have been in this business for 28 years, and I know what I'm talking about.

In fact, you can bank on it (or not, at your peril).