How to teach someone to grade books?

[ComicDoc]

Hi,

 

So my twenty year old and his friend want me to teach them how to grade comics!

 

What references would you recommend for me use to help them learn?

 

I have the overstreet books and 30+ years of collecting so I can get them started. I was wondering if anyone knew of any Youtube or other websites that I could use to help teach them?

 

Also any advice from someone who has taught someone else how to grade / evaluate comics would be greatly appreciated!

 

Thanks,

 

B

[chrisco37]

OS Grading guide is essential.

 

Give them examples of your slabbed books too to check out.

 

As for websties, have them peruse "PGM" forum here on the boards.

[VintageComics]

Depends on how you want to grade.

 

The Overstreet Grading Guide is a terrific reference book, but the 2nd edition is best with the 1st and 3rd editions having some inconsistencies.

 

Heritage has supersized scans which allow you to see books up close.

 

Honestly though, the only real way to learn to grade properly is through handling many books, and interacting with others. 2 dimensional grading is a terrific start but won't cover all the bases because you can't see the interior flaws on a cover scan, you can't feel and smell the book or examine the gloss, etc.

 

Submitting lots of books to CGC is the sharpest, quickest learning curve but it's also the most expensive...and some people will disagree with the CGC grading curve.

 

Within a short time studying you should be able to quickly narrow a given book down to a grade range a book falls into with a short inspection and then work on narrowing the book down to your final grade.

 

Hope that helps.

[Dale Roberts]

Hi,

 

So my twenty year old and his friend want me to teach them how to grade comics!

 

What references would you recommend for me use to help them learn?

 

I have the overstreet books and 30+ years of collecting so I can get them started. I was wondering if anyone knew of any Youtube or other websites that I could use to help teach them?

 

Also any advice from someone who has taught someone else how to grade / evaluate comics would be greatly appreciated!

 

Thanks,

 

B

 

I have never taught anyone to grade, but I am getting ready to do so, and I have been thinking about this.

 

I think I am going to teach my "student" to grade like CGC does, which is possibly a different standard than what most people learned........and it is a pretty tough thing to do.

 

I think it is always important to remember that CGC has 3 graders and even though they know exactly the standards that CGC uses, it is my experience that many times all 3 don't agree on grades.

 

I also think the CGC has different standards at different times since there inception, so do you grade as they graded when Steve was there, or when Mark was in charge, or as they are grading now. I think there are subtle differences with all.

 

Ideally, I would think you would get several different examples of each grade, and study them, looking at the differences and similarities between the books of the same grade, and books on each side of the grade. Would take some time.

 

I would also think you need to get examples from different time periods, because clearly books from the early GA are graded by a different standard than Silver, Bronze, or Moderns.

[VintageComics]

I think it is always important to remember that CGC has 3 graders and even though they know exactly the standards that CGC uses, it is rare that all 3 ever agree on grades.

 

Really? They don't give individual grader opinions any more but when they did (and I've asked for notes on 100's or even 1000's of books) my experience was that 98-99% of the time the 3 graders agreed on the grades.

[Dale Roberts]

I think it is always important to remember that CGC has 3 graders and even though they know exactly the standards that CGC uses, it is rare that all 3 ever agree on grades.

 

Really? They don't give individual grader opinions any more but when they did (and I've asked for notes on 100's or even 1000's of books) my experience was that 98-99% of the time the 3 graders agreed on the grades.

 

That has not been my experience. Perhaps I should have qualified that statement, as to my experience.

[Dale Roberts]

fixed

[VintageComics]

I think it is always important to remember that CGC has 3 graders and even though they know exactly the standards that CGC uses, it is rare that all 3 ever agree on grades.

 

Really? They don't give individual grader opinions any more but when they did (and I've asked for notes on 100's or even 1000's of books) my experience was that 98-99% of the time the 3 graders agreed on the grades.

 

That has not been my experience. Perhaps I should have qualified that statement, as to my experience.

 

I should qualify my experience as well.

 

(thumbs u

 

It may be as low as 95% but the majority of time I found that they agree.

 

When they did disagree, the majority of the time it was the pregrader, with grader #2 or #3 disagreeing the minority of the time.

 

On rare occasions, they might call in a 4th grader for their opinion but this was the rare exception.

 

 

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

I think it is always important to remember that CGC has 3 graders and even though they know exactly the standards that CGC uses, it is rare that all 3 ever agree on grades.

 

Really? They don't give individual grader opinions any more but when they did (and I've asked for notes on 100's or even 1000's of books) my experience was that 98-99% of the time the 3 graders agreed on the grades.

 

That has not been my experience. Perhaps I should have qualified that statement, as to my experience.

 

I should qualify my experience as well.

 

(thumbs u

 

It may be as low as 95% but the majority of time I found that they agree.

 

When they did disagree, the majority of the time it was the pregrader, with grader #2 or #3 disagreeing the minority of the time.

 

On rare occasions, they might call in a 4th grader for their opinion but this was the rare exception.

 

 

Did you find that there was any specific type of defect, or grading range that they were most likely to disagree upon?

[Dr. Balls]

I like this link - which is mainly about pressing - because it shows the differences between 9.0 through 9.8 which is helpful for people like me, who are just becoming familiar with CGC and think every NM book is a 9.8.

[Dale Roberts]

I think it is always important to remember that CGC has 3 graders and even though they know exactly the standards that CGC uses, it is rare that all 3 ever agree on grades.

 

Really? They don't give individual grader opinions any more but when they did (and I've asked for notes on 100's or even 1000's of books) my experience was that 98-99% of the time the 3 graders agreed on the grades.

 

That has not been my experience. Perhaps I should have qualified that statement, as to my experience.

 

I should qualify my experience as well.

 

(thumbs u

 

It may be as low as 95% but the majority of time I found that they agree.

 

When they did disagree, the majority of the time it was the pregrader, with grader #2 or #3 disagreeing the minority of the time.

 

On rare occasions, they might call in a 4th grader for their opinion but this was the rare exception.

 

 

Regardless, lets not go off on a tangent from the OP...

[VintageComics]

Did you find that there was any specific type of defect, or grading range that they were most likely to disagree upon?

 

No, not that I can remember.

 

It just shows me that everyone sees things differently and that nobody is perfect.

 

I'd expect a small variation in any controlled experiment and grading is no different.

 

I think the reason that the pregrader varied the most was possibly that they were the lesser experience of the bunch but I could be wrong. It could also have to do with the fact that they do the most amount of work (count the pages, record initial data such as volume, issue number, interior content...all that stuff that ends up on the label etc).

 

 

[VintageComics]

I think it is always important to remember that CGC has 3 graders and even though they know exactly the standards that CGC uses, it is rare that all 3 ever agree on grades.

 

Really? They don't give individual grader opinions any more but when they did (and I've asked for notes on 100's or even 1000's of books) my experience was that 98-99% of the time the 3 graders agreed on the grades.

 

That has not been my experience. Perhaps I should have qualified that statement, as to my experience.

 

I should qualify my experience as well.

 

(thumbs u

 

It may be as low as 95% but the majority of time I found that they agree.

 

When they did disagree, the majority of the time it was the pregrader, with grader #2 or #3 disagreeing the minority of the time.

 

On rare occasions, they might call in a 4th grader for their opinion but this was the rare exception.

 

 

Regardless, lets not go off on a tangent from the OP...

 

Hey, he asked for a lesson so he's getting one.

 

[Davenport]

 

I have never taught anyone to grade, but I am getting ready to do so, and I have been thinking about this.

 

I think I am going to teach my "student" to grade like CGC does, which is possibly a different standard than what most people learned........and it is a pretty tough thing to do.

 

I think it is always important to remember that CGC has 3 graders and even though they know exactly the standards that CGC uses, it is my experience that many times all 3 don't agree on grades.

 

I also think the CGC has different standards at different times since there inception, so do you grade as they graded when Steve was there, or when Mark was in charge, or as they are grading now. I think there are subtle differences with all.

 

Ideally, I would think you would get several different examples of each grade, and study them, looking at the differences and similarities between the books of the same grade, and books on each side of the grade. Would take some time.

 

I would also think you need to get examples from different time periods, because clearly books from the early GA are graded by a different standard than Silver, Bronze, or Moderns.

It doesn't get discussed much, but there have been posts where they've hinted at grading issues against all other exemplars. In other words they're grading ASM #50 against all other ASM 50s that have come through, or HOS #92 against all the HOS #92s in their experience. And so on.

If so, obviously hobbyists can't do that at home.

 

And I've always wondered if that little-discussed method helps explain the "golden age bump", the "harsher on sa DC than sa Marvel" and other CGC "quirks" hobbyists can sense but can't quite quantify.

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

Did you find that there was any specific type of defect, or grading range that they were most likely to disagree upon?

 

No, not that I can remember.

 

It just shows me that everyone sees things differently and that nobody is perfect.

 

I'd expect a small variation in any controlled experiment and grading is no different.

 

I think the reason that the pregrader varied the most was possibly that they were the lesser experience of the bunch but I could be wrong. It could also have to do with the fact that they do the most amount of work (count the pages, record initial data such as volume, issue number, interior content...all that stuff that ends up on the label etc).

 

 

This is really interesting.

 

Precision between graders at this magnitude suggests CGC uses a definitive grading guide that is almost certainly in writing, referred to during the grading process, and used to train new graders. It would also suggest that changes in grading over time are a conscious decision rather than due to laxness or work level.

 

Has anyone ever met a current or ex CGC grader to discuss their grading process? I assume they have to sign a non-disclosure agreement, but there is usually a time limit.

[VintageComics]

 

And I've always wondered if that little-discussed method explains away the "golden age bump", the "harsher on sa DC than sa Marvel" and other CGC "quirks" hobbyists can sense but can't quite quantify.

 

I've always wondered about this as well.

 

I don't know for sure but I do have a few thoughts (is anybody surprised by this )

 

I think that the GA bump can be attributed to Overstreet also grading GA books easier than SA books and ditto for SA vs. BA books. Overstreet has always allowed some defects to be larger, more significant in the GA than they did for the SA in the same grade.

 

As far as SA DC vs. SA Marvel I think that can possibly be attributed to the difference in production quality between the two manufacturers.

 

I would divide the reason into two separate ones. Marvel used much cheaper production equipment and much cheaper paper and inks.

 

For this reason, as far as production went, Marvel books always have much more production defects such as chipping, staple tears, off centre cut, printer roller marks, printer creases (the "greggy nutsack crease" for all you noobs) etc. than DC books do. Because they are almost omnipresent on early Marvels with relatively few copies existing without some sort of a defect I believe CGC "accepted" or minimized many of those defects during the grading process to a greater extent than they do with non Marvel books where those same defects are almost non-existent.

 

Marvels also used different inks and paper than SA DC's so the same defect appears on the two publisher's books differently. For example, Marvel inks were cheap and very brittle and more prone to cracking than a SA DC ink and so the defect appears more prominent on a Marvel book than it does on a DC book giving it the illusion that CGC was more lenient on the Marvel.

 

I find that after about the late 1960's or the start of the bronze age when both manufacturers began to use similar paper and inks, the grading differences seem to disappear.

 

Again, these are just my opinions formed through about 10 years of experience with CGC grading and handling the books.

 

Your mileage may vary.

 

[Dale Roberts]

 

And I've always wondered if that little-discussed method explains away the "golden age bump", the "harsher on sa DC than sa Marvel" and other CGC "quirks" hobbyists can sense but can't quite quantify.

 

I've always wondered about this as well.

 

I don't know for sure but I do have a few thoughts (is anybody surprised by this )

 

I think that the GA bump can be attributed to Overstreet also grading GA books easier than SA books and ditto for SA vs. BA books. Overstreet has always allowed some defects to be larger, more significant in the GA than they did for the SA in the same grade.

 

As far as SA DC vs. SA Marvel I think that can possibly be attributed to the difference in production quality between the two manufacturers.

 

I would divide the reason into two separate ones. Marvel used much cheaper production equipment and much cheaper paper and inks.

 

For this reason, as far as production went, Marvel books always have much more production defects such as chipping, staple tears, off centre cut, printer roller marks, printer creases (the "greggy nutsack crease" for all you noobs) etc. than DC books do. Because they are almost omnipresent on early Marvels with relatively few copies existing without some sort of a defect I believe CGC "accepted" or minimized many of those defects during the grading process to a greater extent than they do with non Marvel books where those same defects are almost non-existent.

 

Marvels also used different inks and paper than SA DC's so the same defect appears on the two publisher's books differently. For example, Marvel inks were cheap and very brittle and more prone to cracking than a SA DC ink and so the defect appears more prominent on a Marvel book than it does on a DC book giving it the illusion that CGC was more lenient on the Marvel.

 

I find that after about the late 1960's or the start of the bronze age when both manufacturers began to use similar paper and inks, the grading differences seem to disappear.

 

Again, these are just my opinions formed through about 10 years of experience with CGC grading and handling the books.

 

Your mileage may vary.

 

 

in short, you have to get a good look at Greggys nutsack to be able to grade books like Roy

[greggy]

[VintageComics]

Did you find that there was any specific type of defect, or grading range that they were most likely to disagree upon?

 

No, not that I can remember.

 

It just shows me that everyone sees things differently and that nobody is perfect.

 

I'd expect a small variation in any controlled experiment and grading is no different.

 

I think the reason that the pregrader varied the most was possibly that they were the lesser experience of the bunch but I could be wrong. It could also have to do with the fact that they do the most amount of work (count the pages, record initial data such as volume, issue number, interior content...all that stuff that ends up on the label etc).

 

 

This is really interesting.

 

Precision between graders at this magnitude suggests CGC uses a definitive grading guide that is almost certainly in writing, referred to during the grading process, and used to train new graders. It would also suggest that changes in grading over time are a conscious decision rather than due to laxness or work level.

 

Has anyone ever met a current or ex CGC grader to discuss their grading process? I assume they have to sign a non-disclosure agreement, but there is usually a time limit.

 

Sure, a lot of us talk to graders all the time, especially on the con circuit when we see each other nearly every day.

 

There most definitely is an internal grading guide that CGC uses for reference but they refuse to make it public. That's been discussed countless times on these boards and there has been a strong outcry for them to share those standards. CGC has replied that they will not.

 

As far as the swings in grade over time, they have been asked multiple times and have always denied that the change is a conscious decision.

[TSwift25]

Start simple: the overstreet guide is fantastic to help differentiate a GD from a VG from a FN. I think, after learning what is, more or less, allowable in each grade range it then becomes simply the work of practice and exposure to be able to accurately identify grade. I also think that even with all that, grading is still an inexact science; quite candidly, there are instances where I have sent books to CGC that I felt came back under graded and instances where I felt they came back over graded. Therefore, I think the most important thing to teach when it comes to grading is patience and an understanding that there really is no perfect ability to grade.