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How to teach someone to grade books?

Started by ComicDoc,

42 posts in this topic

Dale Roberts

Dale Roberts

Posted
Posted

Did you find that there was any specific type of defect, or grading range that they were most likely to disagree upon?

 

No, not that I can remember.

 

It just shows me that everyone sees things differently and that nobody is perfect.

 

I'd expect a small variation in any controlled experiment and grading is no different.

 

I think the reason that the pregrader varied the most was possibly that they were the lesser experience of the bunch but I could be wrong. It could also have to do with the fact that they do the most amount of work (count the pages, record initial data such as volume, issue number, interior content...all that stuff that ends up on the label etc).

 

 

This is really interesting.

 

Precision between graders at this magnitude suggests CGC uses a definitive grading guide that is almost certainly in writing, referred to during the grading process, and used to train new graders. It would also suggest that changes in grading over time are a conscious decision rather than due to laxness or work level.

 

Has anyone ever met a current or ex CGC grader to discuss their grading process? I assume they have to sign a non-disclosure agreement, but there is usually a time limit.

 

Sure, a lot of us talk to graders all the time, especially on the con circuit when we see each other nearly every day.

 

There most definitely is an internal grading guide that CGC uses for reference but they refuse to make it public. That's been discussed countless times on these boards and there has been a strong outcry for them to share those standards. CGC has replied that they will not.

 

As far as the swings in grade over time, they have been asked multiple times and have always denied that the change is a conscious decision.

 

the swings in grades are easily understandable....

 

To start with, when CGC started, the graders had simply not seen as many books as they have now. They now know what defects are common across all issues. Generally speaking, the more books you see, the better you should be able to grade.

 

Also, when CGC began, Steve and Mark had been in the hobby a very long time, making their own grading determinations. They came into the game with preconceived notions of grades. The guys they trained are influenced by them. The guys those guys train will be influenced less by Steve and Mark, and more by whoever trains them.

 

Finally, there are simply differences in people, personalities, and day to day focus. You can't tell me that if a guy comes in with no rest or in a terrible mood, he won't grade differently than the same guy perfectly rested, just coming back from a great vacation. Or a million other examples that you can throw out there.

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ComicDoc

ComicDoc

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I think it is always important to remember that CGC has 3 graders and even though they know exactly the standards that CGC uses, it is rare that all 3 ever agree on grades.

 

Really? They don't give individual grader opinions any more but when they did (and I've asked for notes on 100's or even 1000's of books) my experience was that 98-99% of the time the 3 graders agreed on the grades.

 

That has not been my experience. Perhaps I should have qualified that statement, as to my experience.

 

I should qualify my experience as well.

 

(thumbs u

 

It may be as low as 95% but the majority of time I found that they agree.

 

When they did disagree, the majority of the time it was the pregrader, with grader #2 or #3 disagreeing the minority of the time.

 

On rare occasions, they might call in a 4th grader for their opinion but this was the rare exception.

 

 

Regardless, lets not go off on a tangent from the OP... :baiting:

 

Hey, he asked for a lesson so he's getting one.

 

:banana:

 

More a teaching plan! which has been great so far!!

 

See my post reference numeric grading as I am concerned that without knowing the "standards" used by the grading companies everything is conjecture to a certain extent. But I do not want to impose my personal bias on my students (I know that no teacher would ever do that!!)

 

I have called on notes as well and found that the graders were usually within 0.5 of each other.

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Ditch Fahrenheit

Ditch Fahrenheit

Posted
Posted

Did you find that there was any specific type of defect, or grading range that they were most likely to disagree upon?

 

No, not that I can remember.

 

It just shows me that everyone sees things differently and that nobody is perfect.

 

I'd expect a small variation in any controlled experiment and grading is no different.

 

I think the reason that the pregrader varied the most was possibly that they were the lesser experience of the bunch but I could be wrong. It could also have to do with the fact that they do the most amount of work (count the pages, record initial data such as volume, issue number, interior content...all that stuff that ends up on the label etc).

 

 

This is really interesting.

 

Precision between graders at this magnitude suggests CGC uses a definitive grading guide that is almost certainly in writing, referred to during the grading process, and used to train new graders. It would also suggest that changes in grading over time are a conscious decision rather than due to laxness or work level.

 

Has anyone ever met a current or ex CGC grader to discuss their grading process? I assume they have to sign a non-disclosure agreement, but there is usually a time limit.

 

Sure, a lot of us talk to graders all the time, especially on the con circuit when we see each other nearly every day.

 

There most definitely is an internal grading guide that CGC uses for reference but they refuse to make it public. That's been discussed countless times on these boards and there has been a strong outcry for them to share those standards. CGC has replied that they will not.

 

As far as the swings in grade over time, they have been asked multiple times and have always denied that the change is a conscious decision.

 

It would obviously not be in their best interest to make that grading guide public, and would almost certainly open up a huge can of worms.

 

I wonder if the Pre-Grader is actually just a high-resolution scanner hooked to a PC with pattern recognition software such as is used in hundreds of other industries. Restoration screening could possibly be automated as well. The three human graders then being used to double-check the results and the interior pages. hm

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ComicDoc

ComicDoc

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Start simple: the overstreet guide is fantastic to help differentiate a GD from a VG from a FN. I think, after learning what is, more or less, allowable in each grade range it then becomes simply the work of practice and exposure to be able to accurately identify grade. I also think that even with all that, grading is still an inexact science; quite candidly, there are instances where I have sent books to CGC that I felt came back under graded and instances where I felt they came back over graded. Therefore, I think the most important thing to teach when it comes to grading is patience and an understanding that there really is no perfect ability to grade.

 

I agree with your philosophy and that I tend to start by identifying the defect that limits the grade the most then go from there. So if there is a defect that I would not allow above a F then I look at the rest and see if it decreases the grade further.

 

I am in a minority here on the boards as I do not view CGC as the standard in the industry I do like their encapsulation and like displaying the books but often disagree with their grades as they are inconsistent and do not agree with Overstreet.

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Davenport

Davenport

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Posted

This thread made me go re-read a 'learning to grade" comment I posted long, long ago. :blush::D

 

Comic grading used to drive me nuts when I thought of it as a 'numerical scale' or 'quality standards'. So I let go of that. Now I approach grading like learning/using a language. Grading (like any language) is constantly evolving, over time, with individuals, and in the marketplace.

 

So I think the best way to learn comic grading is to "do it". Study Overstreet to get a sense of what's "common usage", look at large scans of pro-graded books to get a sense of how it's being professionally applied (and how subjective it really is), and grade lots of comics yourself. In time you'll get comfortable that you know how to grade well.

 

Just remember with comic grading "every head is a world". It lowers the frustration level. On 'Planet-John' comics with a date stamp are ruined, but on 'Planet-Doug' date stamps add a certain historical charm. On 'Planet-Jim' you're always a grade high, but on 'Planet-Mark' you're being too strict. So what? It's their world.

 

That's how I see it anyway. Read, look, listen to feedback, study, practice, adjust and improve. Do the best you can, and when you "know better" add what you learn to your skill-set and keep going.

 

...and a '10-point scale' interpretation (subject to change). :D

 

Scale.jpg

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Ditch Fahrenheit

Ditch Fahrenheit

Posted
Posted

Did you find that there was any specific type of defect, or grading range that they were most likely to disagree upon?

 

No, not that I can remember.

 

It just shows me that everyone sees things differently and that nobody is perfect.

 

I'd expect a small variation in any controlled experiment and grading is no different.

 

I think the reason that the pregrader varied the most was possibly that they were the lesser experience of the bunch but I could be wrong. It could also have to do with the fact that they do the most amount of work (count the pages, record initial data such as volume, issue number, interior content...all that stuff that ends up on the label etc).

 

 

This is really interesting.

 

Precision between graders at this magnitude suggests CGC uses a definitive grading guide that is almost certainly in writing, referred to during the grading process, and used to train new graders. It would also suggest that changes in grading over time are a conscious decision rather than due to laxness or work level.

 

Has anyone ever met a current or ex CGC grader to discuss their grading process? I assume they have to sign a non-disclosure agreement, but there is usually a time limit.

 

Sure, a lot of us talk to graders all the time, especially on the con circuit when we see each other nearly every day.

 

There most definitely is an internal grading guide that CGC uses for reference but they refuse to make it public. That's been discussed countless times on these boards and there has been a strong outcry for them to share those standards. CGC has replied that they will not.

 

As far as the swings in grade over time, they have been asked multiple times and have always denied that the change is a conscious decision.

 

the swings in grades are easily understandable....

 

To start with, when CGC started, the graders had simply not seen as many books as they have now. They now know what defects are common across all issues. Generally speaking, the more books you see, the better you should be able to grade.

 

Also, when CGC began, Steve and Mark had been in the hobby a very long time, making their own grading determinations. They came into the game with preconceived notions of grades. The guys they trained are influenced by them. The guys those guys train will be influenced less by Steve and Mark, and more by whoever trains them.

 

Finally, there are simply differences in people, personalities, and day to day focus. You can't tell me that if a guy comes in with no rest or in a terrible mood, he won't grade differently than the same guy perfectly rested, just coming back from a great vacation. Or a million other examples that you can throw out there.

 

There's been a lot of conjecture about the reasons for what seems to be a loosening of grading during the latter half of 2011, and then a recent tightening back to normal. If true, this would seem to reinforce non-conscious reasons for grade swings such as you are describing.

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ComicDoc

ComicDoc

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The pre grader is a real person.

 

(thumbs u

 

Sure, someone has to load the APRS (Automated Pattern-Recognition Scanner)!

 

:banana:

 

I'm feeling rather Machiavellian this morning.

:idea: CCGC = computerized comic grading company?? (after all you can not see the inside once it is encapsulated anyway!)
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MR SigS

MR SigS

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Posted

The Overstreet Grading Guide is a terrific reference book, but the 2nd edition is best with the 1st and 3rd editions having some inconsistencies.

 

hm I'll have to look for the 2nd edition. I have the 1st and 3rd and I thought the 1st used better examples, showing front and back covers in each example. The 3rd only used front covers.

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Ditch Fahrenheit

Ditch Fahrenheit

Posted
Posted

The Overstreet Grading Guide is a terrific reference book, but the 2nd edition is best with the 1st and 3rd editions having some inconsistencies.

 

hm I'll have to look for the 2nd edition. I have the 1st and 3rd and I thought the 1st used better examples, showing front and back covers in each example. The 3rd only used front covers.

 

I have it, but personally I don't think it's worth the bother of getting. The scans are too small to be of much use. Most of the arrows point to defects you can't see.

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MR SigS

MR SigS

Posted
Posted

The Overstreet Grading Guide is a terrific reference book, but the 2nd edition is best with the 1st and 3rd editions having some inconsistencies.

 

hm I'll have to look for the 2nd edition. I have the 1st and 3rd and I thought the 1st used better examples, showing front and back covers in each example. The 3rd only used front covers.

 

I have it, but personally I don't think it's worth the bother of getting. The scans are too small to be of much use. Most of the arrows point to defects you can't see.

 

Does it show back covers too?

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