A Lament of Comic Book Grading

[rodan57]

I am going to be a bit longwinded here. I think this topic has been running around in my brain for awhile. So if the text is daunting, just skip down to the last three paragraphs.

 

When I first collected comics as a kid, it was enough to just find an issue of any particular comic book. The idea of condition was more a factor of whether or not the comic was complete and had a cover.

 

I returned to comics in 2004 and sought out comics that were cheap. Any Marvel Silver Age under $15 was a "buy" regardless of condition -- once again it just needed all its pages and a cover. However, somewhere along this path I discovered how impressive a well preserved comic book really was. I found myself applauding the purchase of a pristine book and enjoyed the reading of an old book whose condition allowed me to imagine myself reading this book forty years ago.

 

Over the last four or five years my primary or special collection of keepers gets larger and then smaller again as I weed out older books that no longer match my increasing developing sense of condition. Having finally purchased a goodly number of Mylite2s and Fullbacks, I am now transferring my books into bags/boards that I won't need to change anymore.

 

This will be another culling period as well as a grading period. I've decided that more than appreciating a CGC 7.5 or 9.0, I am going to need to be able to grade a book with some precision. I want to be able to record grades for all my books using scans and cracked slab books for comparison.

 

Finally -- here's my lament. I have a good number of cracked CGC books whose condition I can compare to my raw books. I have also been collecting scans of specific issues from the Heritage Archives to support my grading conclusions.

 

I have noticed some variance in grading from CGC but nothing too major -- it's a bit of an eye opener when I notice the sometimes subtle differences between 7.0, 7.5 or 8.0.

 

But lately, I have noticed in the sale threads a number of graded books whose condition really doesn't seem to match the label. Actually it seems to be a lot of books. I have CGC copies of books that are in much better condition that what I am currently seeing slabbed at the same grade -- and I am comparing both the raw book and scan of the my book slabbed to the scans I see.

 

I don't want to be harsh on my books because there's the monetary issue involved in a higher or lower grade -- but I don't want to be a "shake your head at" loose grader. I think there's as much a professional art to grading as there is to assembling a prime quality collection.

 

So is there a significant variance in grading at the CGC or is it my imagination? Can I sit back and assume that the pendulum with swing and standards will be reset? Or do I start looking at 6.5s and start calling them all 7.0s and 7.5s?

 

[sterlingcomics]

We've all seen periods of "strict" and "loose" grading at CGC, but imo we are currently experiencing a "loose" grading period that is unparalleled. Having looked at who is grading books at CGC these days (most of the folks are new to me), it seems to support that getting a high grade seems to be "easier" than in days gone by. I'm seeing grades that are easy two grades off than what I'm expecting.

 

Remember the days when a 9.4 could be obtained "as long as" there was no more than two CBCs and no other defects? I'm seeing 9.6s now with those characteristics as well as other defects on them. 9.8s don't seem to need sharp corners anymore. It's laughable really. They need to get insidious with their grading again imo.

 

Don't even get me started on registration or QP.

 

Now going OT a bit...

 

There are many books that are technically "upgrades" to books in my collection (according to the label), but I'm turning it down because the book doesn't look the part.

 

All of this impacts us in terms of values of better graded books in our collection. GPA doesn't record opinion on registration or PQ, but no one wants to pay more than GPA--even if your book had white pages and perfect registration because GPA was for a COW paged and poorly registered and/or badly graded. IMO that's another problem that should be solved. CGC used to have a search feature that could allow for this data mining, but that's taken away as well. No slams meant for either service, but the above is true.

 

The solution? People will continue to pay less (ie less demand) for books that may be otherwise worth more until the data gap is addressed and as census counts artificially increase. At least I will.

 

CGC offered their opinion. This is mine.

[Davenport]

I returned to comics in 2004 and sought out comics that were cheap. Any Marvel Silver Age under $15 was a "buy" regardless of condition -- once again it just needed all its pages and a cover. However, somewhere along this path I discovered how impressive a well preserved comic book really was. I found myself applauding the purchase of a pristine book and enjoyed the reading of an old book whose condition allowed me to imagine myself reading this book forty years ago.

 

Over the last four or five years my primary or special collection of keepers gets larger and then smaller again as I weed out older books that no longer match my increasing developing sense of condition. Having finally purchased a goodly number of Mylite2s and Fullbacks, I am now transferring my books into bags/boards that I won't need to change anymore.

When I read your "developing sense of condition", I think the last decade has seen a huge marketing "create a need" effort. You know...create a need, then fill it.

 

Back issues were rare, few nice ones survived (pre-eBay), then they weren't scarce at all (early eBay), then they were scarce in grade (early CGC), then they were scarce in highest grades (mid-CGC, pressing phenomenon).

 

Still, collectors can hold a book in their hands and determine if it's like new, practically new, slightly used, or damaged. At a common-sense gut level. Before getting off into the weeds of minutia and recently discovered "sense of condition".

 

Sometimes I think "perfection" is the enemy of "sense of wonder". It steals the attention and is relentlessly insatiable.

 

 

[Whizzer]

Nice presenting Fine to Very Fine for me all day long. all of the fun, none of the stress. Not an investor, so no problem.

[namisgr]

So is there a significant variance in grading at the CGC or is it my imagination? Can I sit back and assume that the pendulum with swing and standards will be reset? Or do I start looking at 6.5s and start calling them all 7.0s and 7.5s?

 

There is a significant variance in grading at CGC over time. After Mark Haspel took his sabbatical, things seemed to loosen dramatically. Now, the general consensus and personal experience would suggest grading has tightened quite a bit. I suspect that grading standards wobble over time as new graders are brought in and old ones change responsibilities.

 

To extend the discussion you've begun, a lament of mine is that the structural grade has surpassed the eye appeal as the far-and-away dominant factor in determining value. This has occurred despite the fact that we see all the time 9.4 and 9.6 copies of books that look inferior to 9.2 or even 9.0 graded copies.

 

Production quality, page quality, cover paper preservation, and cover ink preservation all have a big impact on the eye appeal independent of the structural grade. I, for one, would rather own a copy with a barely-perceptible spine stress line or corner softening that has bright white cover stock and deep, rich inks to a structurally superior example that looks like it was at one time left in a hot garage for a couple of months. Or one that has a crooked cover or staples that are a half inch onto the front cover. The fact that the latter copies will typically sell for a significant multiple of the former highlights the disconnect between how nice a comic looks and how the current marketplace ascribes value.

 

 

[Flaming_Telepath]

So is there a significant variance in grading at the CGC

 

Yes.

 

And this summer was a particular low-point for loose grading.

[Green]

So is there a significant variance in grading at the CGC

 

Yes.

 

And this summer was a particular low-point for loose grading.

Fall totally kicked my butt tho.

[greggy]

So is there a significant variance in grading at the CGC

 

Yes.

 

And this summer was a particular low-point for loose grading.

Fall totally kicked my butt tho.

[rodan57]

So is there a significant variance in grading at the CGC

 

Yes.

 

And this summer was a particular low-point for loose grading.

Fall totally kicked my butt tho.

 

So I sit here and wonder if I need to wait out the current crop of offerings for sale until a sense of quality returns.

 

I haven't yet seen the tightening of standards that namisgr mentioned above in current offerings but I am looking forward to such.

[Sal]

grading from a scan isn't really going to tell the whole story. i have plenty of raw books that look for all the world like nm- in a scan but in hand are closer to vf- due to defects that don't show up all that well in two dimensions

[Ken Aldred]

To extend the discussion you've begun, a lament of mine is that the structural grade has surpassed the eye appeal as the far-and-away dominant factor in determining value. This has occurred despite the fact that we see all the time 9.4 and 9.6 copies of books that look inferior to 9.2 or even 9.0 graded copies.

 

Production quality, page quality, cover paper preservation, and cover ink preservation all have a big impact on the eye appeal independent of the structural grade. I, for one, would rather own a copy with a barely-perceptible spine stress line or corner softening that has bright white cover stock and deep, rich inks to a structurally superior example that looks like it was at one time left in a hot garage for a couple of months. Or one that has a crooked cover or staples that are a half inch onto the front cover. The fact that the latter copies will typically sell for a significant multiple of the former highlights the disconnect between how nice a comic looks and how the current marketplace ascribes value.

 

I totally agree with this.  I've found brilliantly presenting 9.0s and 9.2s time and time again.  

[NuffSaid57]

I think few would argue that there is not some variation in grading standards at CGC over time. Heck I don't agree with myself from day to day, and am constantly second guessing myself. Unless a machine can be programmed I am certain there will always be some variation and I don't think that is a bad thing.

 

I also lament that sometimes structure seems to take precedent over eye appeal. Bottom line as much as possible buy the book and not the grade. I have 5.5's (little moisture damage BC) I prefer to 7.5's and 9.0's (Clean with great gloss and color but some small ding somewhere) that I prefer to some 9.6's.

 

That said if you do not trust a seller or cannot see enough detail to fully judge a book, on average you are going to be much happier buying a CGC grade as nobody is more consistent with many books widely available!

[Ken Aldred]

For raw books I stick with dealers I have confidence in as skilled graders, and who will screen a book to determine if it has the type of presentation I'm looking for.  

[sterlingcomics]

For raw books I stick with dealers I have confidence in as skilled graders, and who will screen a book to determine if it has the type of presentation I'm looking for.  

 

It's getting to the point that I'm going to go back to raw from established dealers; will be cheaper for me as well. I can then certify it at my convenience without the silly markups.

[lizards2]

grading from a scan isn't really going to tell the whole story. i have plenty of raw books that look for all the world like nm- in a scan but in hand are closer to vf- due to defects that don't show up all that well in two dimensions

I think the original point was that you can see huge flaws through the slab that would cause the average boardie to call a book 9.0/8.5, in a book that sits in a 9.4 label.

[sterlingcomics]

Sometimes I think "perfection" is the enemy of "sense of wonder". It steals the attention and is relentlessly insatiable.

 

Nicely said...

[sterlingcomics]

The fact that the latter copies will typically sell for a significant multiple of the former highlights the disconnect between how nice a comic looks and how the current marketplace ascribes value.

 

This underscores what I've been saying as well, and personally wish CGC would factor that into the overall grade for a better "common sense" grade!