Will TPBs eventually increase in value?

[Zonker]

For those of you who don't think it will work, and for the others of you who think Gene is just full of hot air, look at TokyoPop and other manga publishers. That's the wave of the future, my friends.

 

I couldn't agree more. Just stepping back and looking at the market and how it's changed the last few years in the TPB, or "digest", area lends to this. With major ongoing monthly titles featuring TPB volumes covering spans of several issues or limited series being collected into a trade after it's completion the "I'm waiting for the trade to come out" will be obsolete as they become the norm and comic books take their place in Americana.

 

 

CRC

 

I'm just hungry for a bit more analysis why you all think the Japanese manga model is obviously transferable to the US market, and if so, how we get there from here ?

[delekkerste]

So refresh my memory.

 

- What's the assumed price point for OGN not subsidized by monthlies?

- Are we assuming these are all sold via newstand, fully-returnable distribution, or via the current mix of returnable and Direct Market? (The Direct Market is a sweet deal for the publishers, it transfers virtually all the risk to the retailer, consequently it might be important for the publishers to try to keep guys like Lighthouse in business)

- In the dynamic-not-static analysis, what assumptions are made about the price elasticity of demand for TBPs versus monthly comics?

 

Now since it's not fair to just throw questions without offering what I would do, here's a scenario.

 

Convert a segment of the most popular series into an alternative TPB-only set of books. People have long asked why in the world we need multiple Spider-Man, Batman, X-Men books every friggin month. Using Batman as an example, keep Batman and Detective Comics as monthlies, but convert Gotham Knights into a quarterly TPB-only format. Keep the stories standalone, but have certain subplots or supporting characters running from one edition of the TPB to the next. Also, it would be fine to have the monthlies reference what happens in the TPBs (the old Stan Lee hook to get the fanboys to buy the entire line), but each TPB itself must be a standalone chunk of story.

 

Now do the same with Spider-man, Superman and X-Men. No need for more than 1 or 2 monthlies of the same character. Do the rest as all-original TPBs, get the price point as low as possible (maybe $10 for the equivalent of 3 new monthly issues, assuming cheap paper + ads, but also assuming fewer readers in the short run for the higher-priced books), and promote the heck out of them at both the LCS and the bookstore chains. Then maybe we'll see if Donut is right that the Japanese manga format is transferrable to this culture/market.

 

I think that's an excellent idea and should certainly be among the alternatives that are considered. As for your other questions, I'm not claiming to have all the answers, just that many of the right questions haven't been asked until now. The answers to your (very pertinent) questions would definitely require more than an off-the-cuff response on a comic book message board and should definitely be part of the core research and analysis in the evaluation process (which I hope the publishers are well into by now).

[CompleteRunComics]

I'm just hungry for a bit more analysis why you all think the Japanese manga model is obviously transferable to the US market, and if so, how we get there from here ?

 

Hey, I just sell the books, we'll let the corporate types figure all that out.

 

I wouldn't necessarily say we're transferring a "manga" model to the U.S. as much as it's just an inevitable continuation of things. I don't dislike comics, I love'em. But, for $2.25/$2.50/$2.99+ you get, hopefully, a story squeezed into 22 pages in a flimsy kind of form. TPB's mainly will allow for a significant story, in a more sound form for what, and this is only what I assume, would be less than buying the comparable number of comics page-wise would cost. Kids are savy these days and I don't think they'll go the comic route when there's something bigger and better out there.

 

How would this all happen? Probably like the Ultimate Universe titles, first one to see how it goes, then two, then a little later another and another...

 

Advertising costs, printing costs, royalties etc.. I know nothing about them suffice to say if the buying public go the TPB route companies will figure out how to make it work and dam quick.

 

 

CRC

[Hensley300]

Yep, I see no logical reason why advertising will not be expanded to tpb, after all, its the vast untapped market on the lcs shelf right now. And tpb as selling, if they werent they wouldnt be in lcs's or borders for that matter. And speaking from a consumers point of view, tpb's are more in sight because of a change in the market place. I feel they are filling a demand. Whats up with the manga idea?

[Stronguy]

Personally, I think the responses to the thread prove my point...

 

Stronguy, Supapimp and Ares all think there won't be a market, and the one responder who actually sells these for a living says the market is already there...

 

The simple fact that the "typical" purchaser of TPBs does not think they have any upside means there is a chance for them to appreciate... It's the items everyone thinks are going to go up in value that never do.

 

I don't have a big stockpile of 1st print TPBs (I wish I did). But the people who do will benefit from the guys who don't think they will be worth anything.

 

Face it... None of us would have valuable comics if it wasn't for mothers the world over throwing the darn things in the trash.

 

I was hoping you would weigh in on this. You have been a champion of TPBs as long as I've know you and are one of only a few people who have studied the market.

 

Thanks for the input.

[Aman619]

Here we are agreed, and I think the discussion on this thread has been arguing against the all- TPB, nothing- monthly-comic straw man. In fact, a blended approach is what the industry is currently embracing, so what's the big deal?

 

right. This is what works now, and when it stops working theyll struggle to find a new arrangement to keep the comic business going forward... until they fall by the wayside..someday...out there...sign here.

[Aman619]

For those of you who don't think it will work, and for the others of you who think Gene is just full of hot air, look at TokyoPop and other manga publishers. That's the wave of the future, my friends.

 

hey Donut - - you know theyre all reprints right? Japanese comics come out in big thick weekly anthologies, And are constantly collected in little trade paperbacks. Thats the model DC and Marvel are currently following.

[Aman619]

Yep, I see no logical reason why advertising will not be expanded to tpb, after all, its the vast untapped market on the lcs shelf right now. And tpb as selling, if they werent they wouldnt be in lcs's or borders for that matter. And speaking from a consumers point of view, tpb's are more in sight because of a change in the market place. I feel they are filling a demand. Whats up with the manga idea?

 

how about th eloss of all movie advertising? And all other ads that pertain to timing of the comic/s release date? No point in announcing a film opening on all th eback covers of Marvel or DC mags (great exposure) in a TPB that is meant to stay on the shelf for years to come, right?

 

Course, if TPBs were the norm, you could still time the ads to releases, but advertisers would have to be convinced of this, probably at the cost to Marvel and DC of significant discounts for quite some time. and why wouldnt it surprise me that DC/Marvel would find it impossible to RAISE the rates back again afterwards....

 

I think DC/Marvel wiould only switch to TBPs out of desperation...and we're not there yet.

 

One more thing, we do have a format today for first-run TPB stories. DC does them from tiem to time: Catwoman, WW Hynopteria (whatever it was called with Batman under her foot). and they cost 24 to 39 dollars. My understanding is that they are trying everything they can....and the problem isnt one of format or cost....comics just arent as compelling as entertainment to as large a segment of the population as they traditionally were... Changing formats of stories of guys in tights and horror and etc wont bring new readers who dont read this stuff in OTHER formats.

[Aman619]

cmon Gene do you read your posts before submitting them? you can be so condescending sometimes. Heres two phrases of your letter that when placed end to end make my point for me...

 

Gosh, we're all so blind, and hopeless at seeing the future crash a'comin'!

and now we're all stupid too, cause we cant see how to convert to TPBs successfully....?

"O show us the way!"

 

Oh, come on Aman, you can't seriously be that thin-skinned, can you? So I had my marketing/politician's hat on...BFD. All I'm saying is that some of you guys act like hysterical reactionaries whenever this subject comes up. This isn't something true fans of the medium should be fearing. This isn't preaching about a market crash, this is preaching about how to extend the lifespan of the hobby.

 

I wrote that to you late last night and when I woke up I was sorry. I figure now you were only making your point in an aggressively assertive manner..(more as in frustration than as a boast) .. not in the way I first read it. I go out of my way now (as I sense you do too) to try not to exacerbate our little dust-ups here. That comment sounded at the time like the "old Gene" and I responded to it.

 

Sorry about that.

[delekkerste]

We're cool.

[hobbes]

I'm just hungry for a bit more analysis why you all think the Japanese manga model is obviously transferable to the US market, and if so, how we get there from here ?

 

Hey, I just sell the books, we'll let the corporate types figure all that out.

 

I wouldn't necessarily say we're transferring a "manga" model to the U.S. as much as it's just an inevitable continuation of things. I don't dislike comics, I love'em. But, for $2.25/$2.50/$2.99+ you get, hopefully, a story squeezed into 22 pages in a flimsy kind of form. TPB's mainly will allow for a significant story, in a more sound form for what, and this is only what I assume, would be less than buying the comparable number of comics page-wise would cost. Kids are savy these days and I don't think they'll go the comic route when there's something bigger and better out there.

 

How would this all happen? Probably like the Ultimate Universe titles, first one to see how it goes, then two, then a little later another and another...

 

Advertising costs, printing costs, royalties etc.. I know nothing about them suffice to say if the buying public go the TPB route companies will figure out how to make it work and dam quick.

 

 

CRC

 

I cannot give a market analysis but I can give a first hand account of the success Tokyo Pop and Dark Horse are having with manga style trades. These books are hot in the 10 to 13 crowd. Period. Everytime a Shonen Jump monthly drops half the kids my son hangs with drags them to school and they sit on a brickwall debating/enjoying the book. Just like we did as kids with comics. Tokyo Pop has also nailed it with 7.95 to 9.95 trades of One Piece, Intial D, DBZ, and on and on. This fascination kids have with Japaneese manga is not just because it's cool or supposedly new. They are not half as stupid with their money as some people may assume. They are far more eager to drop $5 on a large black and white mag with 6-7 different stories in it than 2.99 on a 32 pager that just happens to be in color. My son thinks comics are cool and so do the rest of his friends. But here's the rub. They do not want to read them. They want the trades. My son loves USM and UXM. I have the comics. He will not read them. Instead, he just waits for the trades to be released. He can throw it in his backpack and haul it all over the place. He only nedds to take 2 or 3 with him and he will have tons to read. Comics cannot match that. He's not going to haul a short box to a friends house. Marvel and DC are headed in the right direction with the release of more and more trades. It would behoove them to continue this trend.

[Aman619]

interesting first hand observations Zonk.

 

There was a recent article on Mangas growing influence with US kids. It centered more though on our kids fascination with Mangs a ssome sort of wildly different experience than the usual American stuff around them.. almost like it was being shipped in from Mars! And it stressed that lots of girls were picking up on manga. attracted to the more suitable (to girls) subject matter I think...

 

Marvel currently is offering small Manga styled reprint books...so maybe theyr are listening, at least trying a new format...But as I said earlier, if its the subject matter that repels kids in the US, changing the format will never work to get more readers. Digest sized reprints of Spidey and Hulk stories that dont appeal to them STILL wont. If it's manga they want, DC/Marvel will have to buy or license the stuff that Viz and USManga are putting out here. Perhaps they can BUY their way into th emarket by paying more... (I wouldnt be surprised if they werent already looking into it.)

[matewan1990]

I'd love to find some trades in their first printings and I'd pay a premium for them. I'm sure there are others out there like me.

Try finding Miracleman trades in nice shape for cover price.

Try finding a Watchmen Leather-Bound Hardcover for under $150.

Try finding a V for Vendetta HC for under $100.

Try finding the Supreme: The Story of the Year first print for cover price (only a few thousand of these out there).

Try finding some of the rarer VALIANT trades like Solar: Alpha and Omega, Magnus Robot Fighter Steel Nation and the Quantum and Woody editions for cover price. Or the Unity Diamond special editions for under $150.

Try finding the Hawkman by Kubert trade paperback for cover price.

How about the Ultimate Marvel Team-Up HC for cover?

Or the Beavis and Butt-Head trades ...

Some of this stuff is really rare and DOES command a premium. The best example one can give is the Miracleman trades. Then maybe the early printings of the Saga of the Swamp Thing trades, the first printings of Watchmen and V For Vendetta ... the first printing of Captain Britain by Jamie Delano and Alan Davis ... a Jonah Hex: Two-Gun Mojo ...

I've got hundreds of trades in my collection and, in some cases, I'd sell or trade the originals and keep the trades. I personally like my signed and limited HC Kingdom Come and my error edition of Crisis On Infinite Earths HC.

Also, the Conan Essential Edition from Marvel is a very tough find. It took me several months to get one, then Marvel quit printing it, and I've seen it sell for big bucks online.

[hobbes]

Check out this article from Sequential Tart. (Thanks to 'House for turning me onto this site.)

 

The Young Giant

[Aman619]

I forgot to mention that that article or TV piece on mangs stressed that American kids dig the idea that manga is reprinted BACK TO FRONT here....accenting the kids coolness factor cause theyre parents cant figure them out!!!

 

Cool conceot: COMICS as TEEN REBELLION!!!!

[FFB]

Try finding some of the rarer VALIANT trades like Solar: Alpha and Omega, Magnus Robot Fighter Steel Nation and the Quantum and Woody editions for cover price. Or the Unity Diamond special editions for under $150.

 

I just bought a Unity Diamond special edition from Flying Donut for a little over $100.

 

But this is not a TPB. It was never sold at retail. It is a giveaway and was printed in numbers vastly smaller than your typical TPB.

[dam60]

I was just talking about this phenomenon with DAM60 the other day - our mutual conclusion was that TPBs, on the whole, are never going to be worth anything. Reprints with no new material in the overwhelming majority of cases are not going to be sought-after, no matter how limited their supply is (not that most of today's TPBs are limited). The bottom line on TPBs is buy 'em cheap and buy 'em to read.

 

I have to agree (with myself? )

 

The key being new material - no new material IMO no room for price appreciation unless (like has been mentioned previously) there are no new printings (i.e. the Miracleman phenomenom).

 

DAM

[FlyingDonut]

Well, back to the original question. Yes. TPBs will eventually increase in value. There wil always be people who are looking for first editions.

[Aman619]

maybe. I for one had been buying each new hardcover and most softcovers over the past few years thinking that the HC especially would be worth buying. But Ive stopped. Too many. Too much $$$s. Of course, if Ive quit and others too, then NOW is the time to get em while theyre not so much in demand.

 

In general I agree with the first printing line of thought, but not wholeheartedly, and not as much as I once did.

[lighthouse]

Check out this article from Sequential Tart. (Thanks to 'House for turning me onto this site.)

 

The Young Giant

 

That reminds me... It's been too long since I put in a plug for the folks with the indoor plumbing...

 

sequentialtart.com is quite likely THE best site on the internet to find out what is good in comics today. There are lots of places you can find out what superhero title is good right now, but superheroes make up less than 25% of the comics being printed, and the gals at sequentialtart do an outstanding job of covering the titles you would otherwise miss. Mad props to them!