Dealer Grading

[Shield]

I bought a Sgt. Fury 1 and Hulk 6 from Muchin that years later I discovered were restored. I recently sent the Hulk 6 to Matt Nelson to correct the amatuer (and unreversible) color touch and tear seal that Muchin did. (The glue he used to seal the tear stated to turn brown. )

 

How do you know he's the one doing it?

 

He frequently comes to the Tyson's Corner, Virginia show near me, and I've wondered for years whether he was worth trying out...something about his loudmouth personality told me to stay away. That personality has TOTALLY turned my girlfriend and her sister off towards him, not that they're his target customers to begin with.

 

In 2000, I bought some single digit Archie Comics (Archie #5 and #8) along with some early Zip's. I received the books and was unhappy, specifically the Zip #22 that had staple holes with no staples in them, and the book RESTAPLED. I ended up sending the book back to him, and during that process asked who did the restoration work on his books. He said "I do some of it". That was all I needed to hear.

 

I'll see if I can find some emails I had with him...great reading!

[Shield]

How do you know he's the one doing it?

 

 

Ahh, the power of saving all emails! Check this out, from 2001!

 

 

At 12:06 AM 3/2/01 -0500, you wrote:

 

20010301235331.01b92a90@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Subject: Re: How's it going?

Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 00:06:26 -0500

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: multipart/alternative;

boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0060_01C0A2AC.9FD90B10"

X-Priority: 3

X-MSMail-Priority: Normal

X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400

X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400

X-RCPT-TO:

X-UIDL: 280409320

Status: U

 

I think I'm going to shy away from the [r] books for now, thanks! Who's doing these repairs anyway?

 

 

 

Shawn,

 

Some by me, the rest unknown.

 

 

 

 

Thank You,

 

Best Regards,

Richard Muchin

 

TOMORROWS TREASURES [since 1972]

www.tomorrowstreasures.com

mailto:comics@tomorrowtreasures.com

 

 

[Shield]

Boy, this guy's writing style reminds me of HAMMER!

 

100 percent unmodified text. Enjoy!

 

At 04:45 PM 3/19/01 -0500, you wrote:

 

Now, now...Some books can be considered a Fine with writing on the cover, small piece of tape, faded colors, etc. I think the price is a bit high, so I wanted to see it before I plunked down the cash. Let me know if you're interested in a sale. This isn't a $35 book, or even a $200 book. Are you always this persnickety with repeat customers?

Shawn

 

 

 

Shawn,

 

My object is PRECISION. I get MANY more requests for scans, and information than I can POSSIBLY attend to. When the request contains errors of either FACT or DEFINITION, I must, for the sake of brevity as well as clarity, refer those people to the standards that I have set for myself, and as PRINTED in my catalogue and web site.

 

I must insist that the description I offered you in my previous email reply was DEFINITIVE, and was offered in all seriousness.

I repeat, a book by DEFINITION, that is "fine" or better, CANNOT have tape, "faded" colors [ ALL books, at least 30 years old are "faded"], loose pages, writing on ANY part, or any etc. for that matter. Furthermore to repeat, MANY, if not MOST real "vg' books have cover faces that when scanned, suggest a grade of "fine' or better, and therefore CANNOT be accurately distinguished from a higher grade book by means of a scan.

 

I referred you to my web site for standards that I have used successfully for almost 30 years. It is unfortunate, but the sheer VOLUME of inaccurate information [ intentional and/or ignorant ] has caused the rise of the BIGGEST SCAM to hit the comic market that I have yet witnessed.

 

I realize that in insisting that your questions are not LOGICALLY derived from a set of grading standards that I can recognize, I run the risk of alienating a potential buyer. I have NO choice, I would rather have an "educated" and informed "buyer", the kind that have repeatedly supported me for almost 30 years. If you believe that you can make an informed decision on the purchase of a comic through a scan, then I cannot help you. It is no different than all those suckers who bought houses and real estate through "photos" that were intentionally manipulated, and calculated to deceive.

 

There is only 2 reasonable and reliable methods for obtaining rare old comics. 1] purchase in person [ convention, store front, private sale], or 2] through the mail from a reliable source that has a 100% full money return policy. Your stated "standards" for a "fine" graded book suggest the possibility that you are acquainted with, and have done business with con artists who have a vested interest in having you believe " Some books can be considered a Fine with writing on the cover, small piece of tape, faded colors, etc". I can only conclude that you MUST have books that are NOT worth what you THINK they are worth, when objective standards of grading are reasonably applied.

 

 

In answer to your observation that the prices for the 2 Pep comics are "high", you are correct if you mean that your STANDARD of comparison is the "price guide". I forgive you for employing so crude a tactic in your quest to negotiate a lower price, it is a common mistake made by many who are accustomed to assuming that I will be receptive to such a transparent, primitive and counter productive negotiating tactic. I would only point out that YOU run the risk of causing me to set out a more elaborate and costly[ for you ] defense of the price I am asking because you choose not to approach the issue of the books relative "MARKET PRICE", but to rather focus on the ARBITRARY, inaccurate, and largely OUT DATED "GUIDE PRICE". Fact is: There are hundreds of books that I will buy RIGHT NOW, for MORE than the "guide" price, in ANY grade, Pep # 20, 22-65, Archie 1-9,11,13 are among them.

 

 

At any rate, I thank you for your interest, and I regret that I could not be of more help.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank You,

 

Best Regards,

Richard Muchin

 

TOMORROWS TREASURES [since 1972]

www.tomorrowstreasures.com

mailto:comics@tomorrowtreasures.com

[fantastic_four]

On the books you and he were talking about, did he disclose the restoration on any of the books? If so, could it be that he does disclose it when he's explicitly aware of it?

[drbanner]

On the books you and he were talking about, did he disclose the restoration on any of the books? If so, could it be that he does disclose it when he's explicitly aware of it?

 

No, in fact he states that he doesn't disclose resto every time, even if he knows the book has it:

 

It is my policy to identify ALL restored books where the restored defects are beyond the set of defects allowed for that grade. For example: A book is in Fine condition overall but has a small tear that has been sealed. This would be noted as FN (st) because the small tear is a defect outside the scope of a FN definition. A book graded a Fair+ would not be identified as a restored book if the defects that were restored (sealed tear, tape removal, color touch, etc.) are common to a book graded as Fair+.

[jbud73]

On the books you and he were talking about, did he disclose the restoration on any of the books? If so, could it be that he does disclose it when he's explicitly aware of it?

 

No, in fact he states that he doesn't disclose resto every time, even if he knows the book has it:

 

It is my policy to identify ALL restored books where the restored defects are beyond the set of defects allowed for that grade. For example: A book is in Fine condition overall but has a small tear that has been sealed. This would be noted as FN (st) because the small tear is a defect outside the scope of a FN definition. A book graded a Fair+ would not be identified as a restored book if the defects that were restored (sealed tear, tape removal, color touch, etc.) are common to a book graded as Fair+.

 

Well at least hes warning you that in his own warped interpretation what is and is not disclosed as resto.

 

Hey Mike any books up for sale now, you need to keep a link on your auctions in the sig. Speaking of grading, I'll throw your name out there, Dr. Banner can grade

[drbanner]

Hey Mike any books up for sale now, you need to keep a link on your auctions in the sig. Speaking of grading, I'll throw your name out there, Dr. Banner can grade

 

Nothing on ebay currently...but I did just post a couple hundred "new arrivals" in the marketplace!

[Mr. Zipper]

I get MANY more requests for scans, and information than I can POSSIBLY attend to.

 

BS. LAZY is the operative word here.

 

But the sheer VOLUME of inaccurate information [ intentional and/or ignorant ] has caused the rise of the BIGGEST SCAM to hit the comic market that I have yet witnessed.

 

Huh? Is he referring to CGC? Are the black helicopters on the treeline?

 

If you believe that you can make an informed decision on the purchase of a comic through a scan, then I cannot help you.

 

So he's saying that NO image is better than any and just trust his grading guidelines?

 

It is no different than all those suckers who bought houses and real estate through "photos" that were intentionally manipulated, and calculated to deceive.

 

Well it IS different unless Muchin intends to send out manipulated scans!

 

I forgive you for employing so crude a tactic in your quest to negotiate a lower price, it is a common mistake made by many who are accustomed to assuming that I will be receptive to such a transparent, primitive and counter productive negotiating tactic. I would only point out that YOU run the risk of causing me to set out a more elaborate and costly[ for you ] defense of the price I am asking because you choose not

 

My God, he's the Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons.

 

What a maroon.

[uclapeterg]

I have not bought anything from Ted Van Lieuw but have heard good things.

 

I have bought a lot from Ted (Superworld). Great guy and friendly service, but if you're a strict grader, knock off .5 from his grade to be on the safe side. His grading is very close and often dead on, but I have gotten a few overgraded by .5 IMO. His Bronze NMs are usually within .2

 

I bought 5 Bronze VF/NM and NM from SuperWorld and all were off by at least .5. One was off by at least 1.0. He did accept the returns and pay postage both ways.

 

Thanks,

Fan4Fan

 

He never gave me postage both ways!

[uclapeterg]

I requested scans from Robert too and when he wouldn't send them to me , I didn't buy and thank God I didn't.

[Fan4Fan]

I have not bought anything from Ted Van Lieuw but have heard good things.

 

I have bought a lot from Ted (Superworld). Great guy and friendly service, but if you're a strict grader, knock off .5 from his grade to be on the safe side. His grading is very close and often dead on, but I have gotten a few overgraded by .5 IMO. His Bronze NMs are usually within .2

 

I bought 5 Bronze VF/NM and NM from SuperWorld and all were off by at least .5. One was off by at least 1.0. He did accept the returns and pay postage both ways.

 

Thanks,

Fan4Fan

 

He never gave me postage both ways!

 

Did you ask?

 

I sent a very detailed e-mail describing where the grading was off on each of the books. It was very clear by the end that I had some idea of what I was talking about, so I felt justified in asking for shipping both ways since the books were not as advertised and I wouldn't have even considered them had they been properly represented.

 

Thanks,

Fan4Fan

[buttock]

I used to do a lot of business with Richard Muchin, and I have an entirely different opinion of him.

He's a quirky guy, and rude as hell in person, but he isn't bad-intentioned (and very friendly over the phone). He never sold me a book with undisclosed resto that didn't fall under the guidelines he states on his website, and in every catalog he puts out. He is up front about his practices, and will defend his opinion as he did with Shawn.

If you ask him to describe a book over the phone, he'll go on for 5-10 minutes, including any hard-to-detect resto.

 

He's not in it to rip people off with resto. 2 examples -

 

1) I've bought books from him numerous times that he lists as "grade [r]", that he has not yet restored, and will only do so after the book is sold. If you ask him not to perform the resto, he'll gladly not do it. Many of his books don't really need it.

 

2) I had a More Fun 71 years ago that I bought with about 1/3 of the bc missing. Otherwise a beautiful white-paged VF. I showed it to him and mentioned that I was wanting to find a cheap DC with the same bc so that I could replace it, and he sat me down - at San Diego, in the middle of the con, with other people wanting to buy books - and talked with me about the pros and cons of doing that. He was very informative, and ultimately saved me from making a mistake. At the potential loss of sales to him at the premiere event in the US.

 

He is a hack with resto. He simply isn't good at it, despite having gone through Sarrill's class.

 

But Shawn, can you argue with his point about "guide"?

 

He's an "old-school" dealer, who has a lot of business practices from 20 years ago, a la David Alexander, Terry Stroud, etc. They're all good people, they just do things their own way.

[Mr. Zipper]

He never sold me a book with undisclosed resto that didn't fall under the guidelines he states on his website, and in every catalog he puts out.

 

He's not in it to rip people off with resto. 2 examples -

 

I'm glad you had a better experience with him than I did. But for the record, I bought from him at shows and the books I bought were in the 5.0 - 6.5 range. Among the restoration was color touches, glue tear seal, staples replaced and a piece replacement. These restorations were not disclosed and the books were not priced as if they were restored.

 

Last I knew, this type of restoration does not fall in the 5.0 - 6.5 range.

 

Perhaps as a mature and experienced collector you had a better experience withy him than I did as a 23 year old kid in the early 90s.

 

My sense is that he will get away with what he can, and if the buyer looks like an inexperienced mark like I was, watch out.

[DiceX]

He's an "old-school" dealer, who has a lot of business practices from 20 years ago, a la David Alexander, Terry Stroud, etc. They're all good people, they just do things their own way.

 

I wonder how many perfectly nice books have been defaced by dealers that "do things their own way".

[uclapeterg]

I can think of one seller, especially.

[Foolkiller]

buttock:

 

You should count yourself very lucky. My experience has only been with him at shows where he DOES NOT explain his idea of restoration. He rarely will take books out for you to look at them and generally has a bad attitude. But his personality aside -- the main problem with him is that he's basically the kind of liar who simply does not tell you the truth... unless you point blank ask him. This may be a technicality, but it is certainly less than honest.

 

I think it should speak volumes that so many people have had so many bad experiences with him. Avoid this guy like the plague.

 

sat me down - at San Diego, in the middle of the con, with other people wanting to buy books - and talked with me about the pros and cons of doing that. He was very informative, and ultimately saved me from making a mistake. At the potential loss of sales to him at the premiere event in the US.

 

 

while this is nice in theory, and I'm glad he seems to like you, it's lousy customer relations for all his other customers that were there.

 

To me, this guy is dishonest and is in it to rip people off. You'll hear the same kinds of stories about this guy's horrible attitude and personality from dealers and collectors alike.

 

they can't all be wrong.

[buttock]

I agree that he's a jerk at shows. He doesn't want to talk to ANYONE. Which is a stark contrast to how he is on the phone. He'll talk your ear off.

 

I just wanted to give a counter-opinion on the guy, since I've had (generally) good transactions with him.

 

btw, Zipper, I would have been younger than you at the time. Maybe that's why he was nice to me.

[Shield]

But Shawn, can you argue with his point about "guide"?

 

He had a Pep #40 in Fine priced at about 4-5 X guide. Having had all the MLJ Pep's and being able to look back, he was crazy for asking that amount of money. He was one of the very first dealers I had delt with, so I felt I had to start somewhere in trying to determine his pricing. How else would you begin to negotiate a lower price with someone, especially being new to the "big dealer" market? I guarantee you if I had something to sell him, he'd have pulled out a guide and said "I'll give you X amount of guide for these books". Right? Look, don't get me wrong, I don't think he's a bad person, but how would you react if a dealer told you "Then the books you have aren't as much as you THINK their worth" when all you did was tell him that the book you're inquiring about guides for X-why is your pricing so many multiples of guide? Hell, at that point the most valuable books I owned were the ones he had just sold me! So of course I was ticked.

 

Plus, he told me he was putting my name in his "special book" of people to never sell to again. Of course all my friends that collect/collected early Archie/MLJ are all in the "book" as well, and echoed similiar experiences with him.

[sterlingcomics]

I have not bought anything from Ted Van Lieuw but have heard good things.

 

I have bought a lot from Ted (Superworld). Great guy and friendly service, but if you're a strict grader, knock off .5 from his grade to be on the safe side. His grading is very close and often dead on, but I have gotten a few overgraded by .5 IMO. His Bronze NMs are usually within .2

 

My recent CGC returns from my raw purchases from him support your findings (ie hit and miss).

[buttock]

He had a Pep #40 in Fine priced at about 4-5 X guide.

 

Ahem, *cough* Zip 33 *cough*