H0RR0RSH0W Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 I was hoping to help out with some recognizable production flaws on early Marvels. I hope this is the best place to post. If anyone knows otherwise I would be happy to become the wiser for it It seems after asking a # of FF fans and looking at very many copies that Fantastic Four issues #11-13 have a very bad miscut/poor centering flaw. In fact its seems near impossible to find a copy of any of those books with both the CCA stamp and price circle intact. Either one or the other is clipped. Not to confuse but to get just a little technical either Type I or Type II mis-wraps are almost certain on these books. Further it is a common held belief that many early '62-'63 Marvels have miswraps and poor centering as a rule. For anyone that cares I hear this is likely due to the production methods used at that time. As many collectors might know that through the different ages the size of books change. Miswraps to my understanding have very little bearing on the grade but do have a great bearing on "eye appeal". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatest Lantern Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 What about ink smudging? How does that affect a CGC grade? I have a couple of Spider-Woman #1's and they all have ink smudging in them, so I think it's a production issue, not fat greasy fingers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revat Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Will these printing smudges affect grade? HOwabout this not quite appropriate staple? thanks for the help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hockeyboy13 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Will these printing smudges affect grade? HOwabout this not quite appropriate staple? thanks for the help? they should not affect the grade as they were made in the books printing process. the ink smudges are usually easy to remove with a red eraser from a pencil. be very careful not to touch any other inks as you will remove those and that may affect the grade. the staple came that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeypost Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Will these printing smudges affect grade? HOwabout this not quite appropriate staple? thanks for the help? they should not affect the grade as they were made in the books printing process. the ink smudges are usually easy to remove with a red eraser from a pencil. be very careful not to touch any other inks as you will remove those and that may affect the grade. the staple came that way. I would not recommend using a red eraser. It is best to go out and buy a few of these and keep them around if you want to remove dirt and ink transfer. It will gently rub off on marks on the white areas of a book without leaving a dull spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
labratnotincluded Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 (edited) Ok, here's an example of Wolverine #35 from the 1988 series. How do you think this would go for a CGC submission. It looks pretty good and I've noticed that 9.8s appear to have production flaws from what I can see. First 2 will be the 100% size captures and all the rest are 400% magnified close-ups so please keep that in mind: Edited April 15, 2015 by labratnotincluded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeypost Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Too many breaks in color in addition to the printing defects. Highest I would guess on this book is 9.0/9.2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
labratnotincluded Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Thanks Joey, so do you think they enlarge them that much? The ones I've seen that graded 9.8 look like they have those marks too? I wish someone with a 9.8 would post the front and back as well so we could reference. I doubt I'd submit mine but was curious what to look for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pip1988 Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I've gotten used to seeing most things on comics and understanding how and why they happen, but, apologies if this is a total newbie question, I was wondering about the actual folding of the cover. How much has the production changed? On older comics the fold always seems very rounded, whereas on moderns it is very sharp and often leaves a kind of cracking down the edge between the front and back covers on brand new and unread comics. Is this a change in how the pages are folded, the type of paper used and does it take away from the grade? I think my problem is the terminology around spine defects and whether they are production or not. It's this kind of thing http://s639.photobucket.com/user/tarndle/media/ebay002.jpg.html directly where the paper is folded and does not touch the front or back covers. (Again, apologies for the newbie-ness, just trying to get my head around terminology). Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tv horror Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 I have searched the threads and I'm not sure if this belongs here so please forgive me. Today I received issue 17 of Amazing Spider-man from Ebay, Here is the link http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/321570612165?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT The problem is both the Human torch and Spidey have been very lightly traced along their outlines and otherwise the comic is fine, does this affect the grade. I only noticed because the seller mentioned a pen mark. Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosmic-spider-man Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 (edited) Follow up on 10 year old question for DiceX or PovertyRow or anyone else with printer knowledge from the 70's The reason for my original question was that I was very interested in collecting the Marvel 35 cent price variants and I was very curious as to how the printers changed the price boxes for the different versions. at the time I think there were 4 versions like the 30 cent copy, the 35 cent copy, the Diamond price copy and the UK price copy. My original thought after reading allot of stuff from DiceX and seeing the price error on that Marvel Presents #12 Variant was maybe they just clear taped the small price box change over the price on the original art and made all the different plates for each version. Over the last 10 years I have seen many Marvel Covers from the time frame of the price variants but have never seen one with any variation of the price other than just the 30 cent ones. So I am still very curious if maybe those price changes were just taped on and pulled off after each the different plates were made? DiceX & PovertyRow seemed to think the clear tape ideal was very unlikely so I did not think much more about it until today I found this picture of a Thor #261 cover. It appears to have some areas pasted on and a few others that look like clear tape was used, see the box with the Issue number, July & 02450 in it and also the little TM between Thor's legs that looks like clear tape to me but I guess it could have been done later, just wondering what you think. Looks like something was on the negative when exposing the plate. Either that or a cut line where someone cut the "35" on the paste-up, when they were working up the cover. Is it posible that the 35 cent price was placed on the negative with a small piece of clear tape in the shape of the white lines and the edges of the tape came out on the plate, is this posible or am I way off base? Based on the positioning of the lines, I don't see that happening. Makes no sense if the whole price was cut in. Based on the positioning of the lines, I don't see that happening. Makes no sense if the whole price was cut in. I agree, POV. Back in the film days, we didn't use clear tape for much of anything. Matter o fact, our boss would have killed us if he saw clear tape on anything. This type of thing would be just the reason. Edited September 18, 2015 by cosmic-spider-man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shark Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 Follow up on 10 year old question for DiceX or PovertyRow or anyone else with printer knowledge from the 70's The reason for my original question was that I was very interested in collecting the Marvel 35 cent price variants and I was very curious as to how the printers changed the price boxes for the different versions. at the time I think there were 4 versions like the 30 cent copy, the 35 cent copy, the Diamond price copy and the UK price copy. My original thought after reading allot of stuff from DiceX and seeing the price error on that Marvel Presents #12 Variant was maybe they just clear taped the small price box change over the price on the original art and made all the different plates for each version. Over the last 10 years I have seen many Marvel Covers from the time frame of the price variants but have never seen one with any variation of the price other than just the 30 cent ones. So I am still very curious if maybe those price changes were just taped on and pulled off after each the different plates were made? DiceX & PovertyRow seemed to think the clear tape ideal was very unlikely so I did not think much more about it until today I found this picture of a Thor #261 cover. It appears to have some areas pasted on and a few others that look like clear tape was used, see the box with the Issue number, July & 02450 in it and also the little TM between Thor's legs that looks like clear tape to me but I guess it could have been done later, just wondering what you think. It certainly looks like clear tape to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosmic-spider-man Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Hey Shark Another example, I have the Gil Kane Kid Colt Outlaw #218 cover art, that I bought many years ago off ebay " I actually found this before I found a copy of the 35 cent variant" and I did not notice it before but I looked it over real good today and it also has what looks like clear tape over the Issue number, June & 02482 it is very hard to see but it is there, this one does not have the TM though maybe that fell off. It would be cool to see a Marvel Cover Art page with the 35 cent variant paste up attached or even any of the other price variations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PovertyRow Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 I certainly looks like tape was used over the examples shown. But it also looks like a rubber cement/glue (which is repositionable but turns brown over time) or wax was (in the Thor case) was used. The cement turns brown over time as you see in the examples. The wax turns kind of cream/pale yellowish, as you see in the other examples. Usually that was enough to keep things in position for the photostat to be made. Problem with using tape the way it is shown here is that it can reflect off the stat camera lights causing lines that need to be retouched on the negative using "opaque" (a red paint that blocks light when that negative is burned on the plate). Wax and glue can dry out or become brittle over time and the small pieces can fall off. It is quite possible that, as speculated, the tape was added at some later time to keep these small pieces in position. Before I was in printing I worked for an in-house advertising department for several years in the 70s (my first big job). Started as a stat camera operator and ended up as Production Manager. We made "mechanicals" (sometimes called paste-ups) like these for our color circulars and have seen the wax or cement using countless times, but never tape. My job after this was in 4-color pre-press where these b&w mechanicals, layouts showing colors for things like banners/borders etc. and color transparencies were prepped and combined into the four or five negatives that got burned on the printing plates. I often went to the printers and oversaw the registration and color before signing off on a job. To address Shark's speculation about making multiple negs, that sounds correct. Since the cover was the only thing impacted, and in these cases only the black negative, they would finish a run of U.S. covers with a cents price, burn a new black plate for, say, the British pence cover and rerun the job. With changes like black text only the black neg would be impacted so it was a pretty quick thing to swap them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosmic-spider-man Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 Thanks very much for the reply PovertyRow I very much appreciate your knowledge and love reading stuff like this. but I am still confused about some things, they use the original art to make the negatives from correct, and in order to make 4 different price changes they need to make 4 black negatives to then in turn make 4 final black plates from, one for each price variation. Do they add a price paste up to the original art to make the 4 different negatives or do they just add the price changes directly to the black negatives somehow? And if they do just put them on the original art they must have to attach them in some way that it is easy to remove so they can make a quick change to the next price negative for that particular issue? Set me strait on this PovertyRow, I am sure I am missing something in the process and would very much like to know more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PovertyRow Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 Thanks very much for the reply PovertyRow I very much appreciate your knowledge and love reading stuff like this. but I am still confused about some things, they use the original art to make the negatives from correct, and in order to make 4 different price changes they need to make 4 black negatives to then in turn make 4 final black plates from, one for each price variation. Do they add a price paste up to the original art to make the 4 different negatives or do they just add the price changes directly to the black negatives somehow? And if they do just put them on the original art they must have to attach them in some way that it is easy to remove so they can make a quick change to the next price negative for that particular issue? Set me strait on this PovertyRow, I am sure I am missing something in the process and would very much like to know more. All they need is the actual text of the change itself. It is very possible, when they know in advance there are going to be black text changes, that a "5th black" negative is made. The regular or "4th black" only contains the black related to the artwork but has no black text. The 5th black is only text. So you get art of, say, a pence price. Shoot that on a stat camera to get a B&W negative. You can then take the 5th black, cut out the price, and tape in that space the pence price. A new fifth black negative results which can be burned in combination with the regular black plate (2 exposures). The black text is clear on the neg and the rest of the neg is black so the only tihng being exposed is just the black text.. Now if no artwork is involved where the text change are they can just cut out the original text from the 4th black and tape tape the new text in. They use a special red clear tape (red holds back light in this process) called Red Litho Tape. BTW - the term "5th black" come from the order in which plates are printed. In our shop we did yellow, magenta, cyan and black. Other shops may use a different order the the Y, M and C but the black is always last, hence "4th" in the 4-color process. And if a second black is needed it becomes the "5th black". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrchocholat Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 This cracking we see more often today is a production issue of what is called wrong paper grain. Paper has a grain like wood when its produced so the grain either goes top to bottom vs right to left. In a print bindery process it is ideal to have a cover fold parallel to the paper grain. Today these cracks are due primarily to the fact they fold the covers cross grain. In other words they fold 90 degrees to the grain. When you do that you leave the fold suseptablte to cracking especially on dark colours as its like a layer of white cracks through to be visible. This is likely due to a cost savings or production error of not using the right grained paper. Back in the 50s, 60s, and much of 70s printers were much more cautious of this type of production issue as it was seen as poor workmanship and a print run would be stopped and have the correct grain used. regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrchocholat Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) Art changes like a price change were often no more than a mylar sheet with the area of change on it. The "film stripper" the guy who took artwork and made the color negs would then use that mylar to make the special 5 th neg for the 5 th plate. The mylar sheets were sometimes aligned by a special punch so sheets could quickly be added and removed yet maintain accuracy. Oddly enough on the 35 cent variants i think the black change was just the 35 of the 35 as if you look closely the 5 is shifted down a bit in relation to the 3. and since all 35 cent variants except the flintstones display the same misalignment it is likely there was only one master black negative for all the 35 cent variants. regards Edited February 21, 2016 by mrchocholat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin76 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 This cracking we see more often today is a production issue of what is called wrong paper grain. Paper has a grain like wood when its produced so the grain either goes top to bottom vs right to left. In a print bindery process it is ideal to have a cover fold parallel to the paper grain. Today these cracks are due primarily to the fact they fold the covers cross grain. In other words they fold 90 degrees to the grain. When you do that you leave the fold suseptablte to cracking especially on dark colours as its like a layer of white cracks through to be visible. This is likely due to a cost savings or production error of not using the right grained paper. Back in the 50s, 60s, and much of 70s printers were much more cautious of this type of production issue as it was seen as poor workmanship and a print run would be stopped and have the correct grain used. regards Oh you mean back they the press operators actually cared? Now it's all about numbers and speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlennSimpson Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 Hi guys, new to the boards and to grading in general. Have a question, if there is a better place to ask, please let me know. I am fuzzy on the effect of a miswrapped cover. Not sure whether a given level of miswrap represents "a limited accumulation of minor defects", etc. For example, I have a book where I can see a perfect 1/8th inch of back cover all along the front. What is the max grade for a book like that? Not to digress, but I watched several YouTube videos by a guy who took the viewers through grading, and he often referred to "maximum grade for a book with this flaw", which I thought was very helpful, but I don't see anybody else referring to that. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...