Doug Schmell cashing in his vaulted massive collecion. Poll: Is this the top?

[Rip]

 

Anyway, it has been a interesting discussion. I still haven't heard one way or another if people feel CGC grades SA and older differently than BA and newer books.

 

Yes different ages are graded differently.

 

Certain defects are given looser treatment.

Picture a modern book if I wrote my name on the cover, then stamped it with a store stamp, wrote the date I got it with a grease pencil and left it out exposed to create a dust shadow.

[batman_fan]

And just to be fair and allow some perspective, I started back with CGC in 2003/2004 so the only pre 2004 books that I saw were books that I purchased in the past 8 years or so...I was not around for the first 3 years of CGC so my perspective will be different than yours.

 

Also, it does seem to be worth repeating that overgraded books make the headlines much more often than undergraded books.

 

An "overgraded" book will stand out like a sore thumb and attract attention and get called out every time but it's very rare to see someone say "holy cow - look at this book, it looks like a 9.8 in a 9.4 holder!" Those books generally get silently gobbled up into collections because they look nicer than the assigned grade or by people looking to increase the grade through resubmission. There is no motivation to publicly advertise those "undergraded" books as it's in their best interested to not talk about them.

 

Just my to add.

 

 

You CGC noobs crack me up (said by a 1st time CGC submitter from 1999 ) You can actually read my write-up way back in a CBG letter from the same year. I would say my experience with CGC from then was pretty mixed, but I would expect all the books I sent in to come back higher today, probably between 1 and 2 grade levels higher except maybe the Batman 81. (I submitted Batman 25, 33, 49, and 81).

[ciorac]

And just to be fair and allow some perspective, I started back with CGC in 2003/2004 so the only pre 2004 books that I saw were books that I purchased in the past 8 years or so...I was not around for the first 3 years of CGC so my perspective will be different than yours.

 

Also, it does seem to be worth repeating that overgraded books make the headlines much more often than undergraded books.

 

An "overgraded" book will stand out like a sore thumb and attract attention and get called out every time but it's very rare to see someone say "holy cow - look at this book, it looks like a 9.8 in a 9.4 holder!" Those books generally get silently gobbled up into collections because they look nicer than the assigned grade or by people looking to increase the grade through resubmission. There is no motivation to publicly advertise those "undergraded" books as it's in their best interested to not talk about them.

 

Just my to add.

 

 

You CGC noobs crack me up (said by a 1st time CGC submitter from 1999 ) You can actually read my write-up way back in a CBG letter from the same year. I would say my experience with CGC from then was pretty mixed, but I would expect all the books I sent in to come back higher today, probably between 1 and 2 grade levels higher except maybe the Batman 81. (I submitted Batman 25, 33, 49, and 81).

 

Did you resubmit the same books each year since they opened their doors? That would at least put some data points along the timeline to judge the theory of grading fluctuations.

[MrBedrock]

I have biases, yes, but I'm not afraid to state opinions that may detrimentally affect the value of my books or of comics in general.

Nor I. So shut up already.

[batman_fan]

And just to be fair and allow some perspective, I started back with CGC in 2003/2004 so the only pre 2004 books that I saw were books that I purchased in the past 8 years or so...I was not around for the first 3 years of CGC so my perspective will be different than yours.

 

Also, it does seem to be worth repeating that overgraded books make the headlines much more often than undergraded books.

 

An "overgraded" book will stand out like a sore thumb and attract attention and get called out every time but it's very rare to see someone say "holy cow - look at this book, it looks like a 9.8 in a 9.4 holder!" Those books generally get silently gobbled up into collections because they look nicer than the assigned grade or by people looking to increase the grade through resubmission. There is no motivation to publicly advertise those "undergraded" books as it's in their best interested to not talk about them.

 

Just my to add.

 

 

You CGC noobs crack me up (said by a 1st time CGC submitter from 1999 ) You can actually read my write-up way back in a CBG letter from the same year. I would say my experience with CGC from then was pretty mixed, but I would expect all the books I sent in to come back higher today, probably between 1 and 2 grade levels higher except maybe the Batman 81. (I submitted Batman 25, 33, 49, and 81).

 

Did you resubmit the same books each year since they opened their doors? That would at least put some data points along the timeline to judge the theory of grading fluctuations.

 

No, but I have been thinking about re-subbing the 25, 33, and 49 on a straight re-sub.

[jimjum12]

And just to be fair and allow some perspective, I started back with CGC in 2003/2004 so the only pre 2004 books that I saw were books that I purchased in the past 8 years or so...I was not around for the first 3 years of CGC so my perspective will be different than yours.

 

Also, it does seem to be worth repeating that overgraded books make the headlines much more often than undergraded books.

 

An "overgraded" book will stand out like a sore thumb and attract attention and get called out every time but it's very rare to see someone say "holy cow - look at this book, it looks like a 9.8 in a 9.4 holder!" Those books generally get silently gobbled up into collections because they look nicer than the assigned grade or by people looking to increase the grade through resubmission. There is no motivation to publicly advertise those "undergraded" books as it's in their best interested to not talk about them.

 

Just my to add.

 

 

You CGC noobs crack me up (said by a 1st time CGC submitter from 1999 ) You can actually read my write-up way back in a CBG letter from the same year. I would say my experience with CGC from then was pretty mixed, but I would expect all the books I sent in to come back higher today, probably between 1 and 2 grade levels higher except maybe the Batman 81. (I submitted Batman 25, 33, 49, and 81).

 

Did you resubmit the same books each year since they opened their doors? That would at least put some data points along the timeline to judge the theory of grading fluctuations.

 

No, but I have been thinking about re-subbing the 25, 33, and 49 on a straight re-sub.

 

....sell me the 49 and cut back on slabbing fees GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[tth2]

I have biases, yes, but I'm not afraid to state opinions that may detrimentally affect the value of my books or of comics in general.

Nor I. So shut up already.

See? You're already telling me to sit down, shut up and stop rocking the boat (or gravy train).

[batman_fan]

And just to be fair and allow some perspective, I started back with CGC in 2003/2004 so the only pre 2004 books that I saw were books that I purchased in the past 8 years or so...I was not around for the first 3 years of CGC so my perspective will be different than yours.

 

Also, it does seem to be worth repeating that overgraded books make the headlines much more often than undergraded books.

 

An "overgraded" book will stand out like a sore thumb and attract attention and get called out every time but it's very rare to see someone say "holy cow - look at this book, it looks like a 9.8 in a 9.4 holder!" Those books generally get silently gobbled up into collections because they look nicer than the assigned grade or by people looking to increase the grade through resubmission. There is no motivation to publicly advertise those "undergraded" books as it's in their best interested to not talk about them.

 

Just my to add.

 

 

You CGC noobs crack me up (said by a 1st time CGC submitter from 1999 ) You can actually read my write-up way back in a CBG letter from the same year. I would say my experience with CGC from then was pretty mixed, but I would expect all the books I sent in to come back higher today, probably between 1 and 2 grade levels higher except maybe the Batman 81. (I submitted Batman 25, 33, 49, and 81).

 

Did you resubmit the same books each year since they opened their doors? That would at least put some data points along the timeline to judge the theory of grading fluctuations.

 

No, but I have been thinking about re-subbing the 25, 33, and 49 on a straight re-sub.

 

....sell me the 49 and cut back on slabbing fees GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[ryvan-migration]

Maybe the superhero stuff, but a lot of the best genre material comes from the Golden Age. ECs and Carl Barks' Duck work are some of the best the medium has to offer.

 

ECs aren't Golden Age.

That's why they're so good

[sacentaur]

An "overgraded" book will stand out like a sore thumb and attract attention and get called out every time...

 

Absolutely correct - and they're usually a very tough sell too because most collectors are astute enough to notice and not pay the inflated label price. It takes a measure of fortitude for an owner of such a book to price it accordingly in order to move it.... or be patient enough for a "label chaser" to come wandering along.

 

IMHO, CGC is doing both buyer and seller a disservice when they obviously overgrade a book.

 

 

...but it's very rare to see someone say "holy cow - look at this book, it looks like a 9.8 in a 9.4 holder!" Those books generally get silently gobbled up into collections because they look nicer than the assigned grade or by people looking to increase the grade through resubmission. There is no motivation to publicly advertise those "undergraded" books as it's in their best interested to not talk about them.

 

Really? I see and hear those "looks undergraded" comments on slab scans all the time. That's because the slab can hide defects that don't reveal themselves until the book is de-tombed.

 

I've cracked hundreds of slabs, only to discover flaws (e.g., a NCB crease) that weren't seen through the slab. This common situation has exacerbated itself over time because CGC has greatly reduced the notes they used to include on the label (e.g., "moderate interior tanning of interior covers").

 

I presume most people don't crack slabs like I do (even on very expensive books), so that's one reason why we don't hear about it.

 

Another reason is if someone indeed is looking for a resub, and they crack a book and realize that they just aren't going to get it, how likely is it that they're going to post, "Hey guys, I bought this 9.4 thinking I could resub to a 9.8, but I cracked it and there's a clean tiny spine split I couldn't see in the slab, there's a tanning halo, and several of the interior pages have some small tears. What a d ick I am huh, haha"? There's no motivation to do so, so it also goes unspoken.

 

As long as books remain in their tombs, as long as notes on the label keep decreasing, and as long as CGC charges its customers for grader's notes, I assure you my friend that the "myths" will continue to perpetuate even further.

[VintageComics]

 

...but it's very rare to see someone say "holy cow - look at this book, it looks like a 9.8 in a 9.4 holder!" Those books generally get silently gobbled up into collections because they look nicer than the assigned grade or by people looking to increase the grade through resubmission. There is no motivation to publicly advertise those "undergraded" books as it's in their best interested to not talk about them.

 

Really? I see and hear those "looks undergraded" comments on slab scans all the time. That's because the slab can hide defects that don't reveal themselves until the book is de-tombed.

 

I've cracked hundreds of slabs, only to discover flaws (e.g., a NCB crease) that weren't seen through the slab. This common situation has exacerbated itself over time because CGC has greatly reduced the notes they used to include on the label (e.g., "moderate interior tanning of interior covers").

 

I presume most people don't crack slabs like I do (even on very expensive books), so that's one reason why we don't hear about it.

 

Another reason is if someone indeed is looking for a resub, and they crack a book and realize that they just aren't going to get it, how likely is it that they're going to post, "Hey guys, I bought this 9.4 thinking I could resub to a 9.8, but I cracked it and there's a clean tiny spine split I couldn't see in the slab, there's a tanning halo, and several of the interior pages have some small tears. What a d ick I am huh, haha"? There's no motivation to do so, so it also goes unspoken.

 

As long as books remain in their tombs, as long as notes on the label keep decreasing, and as long as CGC charges its customers for grader's notes, I assure you my friend that the "myths" will continue to perpetuate even further.

 

You know, you might be right and a rephrasing might be in order.

 

What you don't see is a 20 page discussion making the headlines about how undergraded a book is (for all of the above reasons) while you will see is a 20+ page discussion on how overgraded a book is.

 

Undergraded books disappear pretty quickly for various reasons.

Overgraded books hang around in people's memories indefinitely, it seems.

 

[sacentaur]

Undergraded books disappear pretty quickly for various reasons.

Overgraded books hang around in people's memories indefinitely, it seems.

 

Now that's a bingo!

[MasterChief]

OK let me get this straight - the instructions are boycott then buy later ?!!

 

Putting money in pocket of HA seller because of his history - bad.

Putting money in the pocket of the HA buyer who ignored the seller's history - good.

 

This hobby is confusing.

 

 

But what happens if you know that the HA buyer knew the seller's history, but the HA buyer who is now re-selling the book has a solid history. Do you buy the book, or stay away on principle because he/she knew the original seller's bad history at the time of the HA sale? So many questions.

 

For myself, I would avoid Dougie books period regardless of who is selling them. The reason is he just has too shady of a background and has shown a complete disregard for anyone in his pursuit of his collection. Because of this, I would have no confidence in what may have been done to the books he owns in trying to achieve the highest grade possible. Just not worth the risk. Blue holder has no meaning. Dougie got a trimmed Ewert book through CGC on a resub when he was trying to launder the book. Just to say it one more time. Dougie got a book that was trimmed by Ewert re-certified and placed into a blue holder. This occurred AFTER CGC knew about the Ewert train wreck and claimed to know how to detect the trimming. Obviously their detection capability is not perfect.

 

Please refresh my recollection if you would...

Does the graphic below illustrate the episode to which you are referring?

 

 

 

[LordRahl]

OK let me get this straight - the instructions are boycott then buy later ?!!

 

Putting money in pocket of HA seller because of his history - bad.

Putting money in the pocket of the HA buyer who ignored the seller's history - good.

 

This hobby is confusing.

 

 

But what happens if you know that the HA buyer knew the seller's history, but the HA buyer who is now re-selling the book has a solid history. Do you buy the book, or stay away on principle because he/she knew the original seller's bad history at the time of the HA sale? So many questions.

 

For myself, I would avoid Dougie books period regardless of who is selling them. The reason is he just has too shady of a background and has shown a complete disregard for anyone in his pursuit of his collection. Because of this, I would have no confidence in what may have been done to the books he owns in trying to achieve the highest grade possible. Just not worth the risk. Blue holder has no meaning. Dougie got a trimmed Ewert book through CGC on a resub when he was trying to launder the book. Just to say it one more time. Dougie got a book that was trimmed by Ewert re-certified and placed into a blue holder. This occurred AFTER CGC knew about the Ewert train wreck and claimed to know how to detect the trimming. Obviously their detection capability is not perfect.

 

I respectfully call hogwash on that bolded statement. It means more than any dealer telling me a book is unrestored. It is still better than any dealer or collector catching resto. Unless of course you think Harley (or any dealer) can spot a micro-trimmed book. Are they perfect? No, probably not. But they are far better than anything else out there.

 

 

[fantastic_four]

I respectfully call hogwash on that bolded statement. It means more than any dealer telling me a book is unrestored. It is still better than any dealer or collector catching resto. Unless of course you think Harley (or any dealer) can spot a micro-trimmed book. Are they perfect? No, probably not. But they are far better than anything else out there.

 

High-end collectors in the 90s could only DREAM of only having to only worry about the two most minor of all restoration techniques that are sometimes undetectable.

[shrunkenhead]

I respectfully call hogwash on that bolded statement. It means more than any dealer telling me a book is unrestored. It is still better than any dealer or collector catching resto. Unless of course you think Harley (or any dealer) can spot a micro-trimmed book. Are they perfect? No, probably not. But they are far better than anything else out there.

 

High-end collectors in the 90s could only DREAM of only having to only worry about the two most minor of all restoration techniques that are sometimes undetectable.

 

Maybe so, but high-end collectors in the 90s never had to contend with 9.8 multiples.

[TheWatcher]

Maybe the superhero stuff, but a lot of the best genre material comes from the Golden Age. ECs and Carl Barks' Duck work are some of the best the medium has to offer.

 

ECs aren't Golden Age.

That's why they're so good

 

ECs either fall under GA or Atomic Age, depending on what "ages" one prefers to use. Generally speaking, books released before the inclusion of the Comics Code are considered GA

[batman_fan]

OK let me get this straight - the instructions are boycott then buy later ?!!

 

Putting money in pocket of HA seller because of his history - bad.

Putting money in the pocket of the HA buyer who ignored the seller's history - good.

 

This hobby is confusing.

 

 

But what happens if you know that the HA buyer knew the seller's history, but the HA buyer who is now re-selling the book has a solid history. Do you buy the book, or stay away on principle because he/she knew the original seller's bad history at the time of the HA sale? So many questions.

 

For myself, I would avoid Dougie books period regardless of who is selling them. The reason is he just has too shady of a background and has shown a complete disregard for anyone in his pursuit of his collection. Because of this, I would have no confidence in what may have been done to the books he owns in trying to achieve the highest grade possible. Just not worth the risk. Blue holder has no meaning. Dougie got a trimmed Ewert book through CGC on a resub when he was trying to launder the book. Just to say it one more time. Dougie got a book that was trimmed by Ewert re-certified and placed into a blue holder. This occurred AFTER CGC knew about the Ewert train wreck and claimed to know how to detect the trimming. Obviously their detection capability is not perfect.

 

Please refresh my recollection if you would...

Does the graphic below illustrate the episode to which you are referring?

 

 

 

I actually thought it was a Journey into Mystery but maybe someone else has a better memory than me.

[jimjum12]

An "overgraded" book will stand out like a sore thumb and attract attention and get called out every time...

 

Absolutely correct - and they're usually a very tough sell too because most collectors are astute enough to notice and not pay the inflated label price. It takes a measure of fortitude for an owner of such a book to price it accordingly in order to move it.... or be patient enough for a "label chaser" to come wandering along.

 

IMHO, CGC is doing both buyer and seller a disservice when they obviously overgrade a book.

 

 

...but it's very rare to see someone say "holy cow - look at this book, it looks like a 9.8 in a 9.4 holder!" Those books generally get silently gobbled up into collections because they look nicer than the assigned grade or by people looking to increase the grade through resubmission. There is no motivation to publicly advertise those "undergraded" books as it's in their best interested to not talk about them.

 

Really? I see and hear those "looks undergraded" comments on slab scans all the time. That's because the slab can hide defects that don't reveal themselves until the book is de-tombed.

 

I've cracked hundreds of slabs, only to discover flaws (e.g., a NCB crease) that weren't seen through the slab. This common situation has exacerbated itself over time because CGC has greatly reduced the notes they used to include on the label (e.g., "moderate interior tanning of interior covers").

 

I presume most people don't crack slabs like I do (even on very expensive books), so that's one reason why we don't hear about it.

 

Another reason is if someone indeed is looking for a resub, and they crack a book and realize that they just aren't going to get it, how likely is it that they're going to post, "Hey guys, I bought this 9.4 thinking I could resub to a 9.8, but I cracked it and there's a clean tiny spine split I couldn't see in the slab, there's a tanning halo, and several of the interior pages have some small tears. What a d ick I am huh, haha"? There's no motivation to do so, so it also goes unspoken.

 

As long as books remain in their tombs, as long as notes on the label keep decreasing, and as long as CGC charges its customers for grader's notes, I assure you my friend that the "myths" will continue to perpetuate even further.

 

......good information. I too, deslab books as I collect Comics....not just Comic covers I've also found that the grades seem different when held in hand. Quite often books that seem overgraded will have strengths not apparent.....extreme gloss, suppleness, etc.....that really matter to an old school fellow. I still like handling a raw book and flipping through it......but I'm VERY happy with CGC for taking away some of the risks associated with mail order. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[Icculus308win]

High-end collectors in the 90s could only DREAM of only having to only worry about the two most minor of all restoration techniques that are sometimes undetectable.

 

 

You need the "Chariots of Fire" ditty being played somehow for your newest vid.