(CBLDF) To defend Alan Moore's NEONOMICON in South Carolina

[shrunkenhead]

Can anyone make a valid argument as to why that particular title should be in a publicly funded institution?

 

Why would the CBLDF choose to defend this book when it depicts our hobby in a horrible light. The gratuitous rape and murder and torture may not espouse the public's support.

 

 

Because Alan Moore is comicdom's canonical modern author, end of story.

 

Start scrubbing literature because it features too much sex and violence, and you lose the Western canon in minutes.

 

You lose the Bible, too. That's got more rape, murder, and torture than anything Moore has ever offered up.

 

 

[Speedy-D]

Can anyone make a valid argument as to why that particular title should be in a publicly funded institution?

 

Why would the CBLDF choose to defend this book when it depicts our hobby in a horrible light. The gratuitous rape and murder and torture may not espouse the public's support.

 

You may not like it, but it's hardly gratuitous. All scenes are integral to the plot & story. And there are lots of books with all levels of description of murder, rape, torture, etc. available in a public library.

[drakesfuture]

Why is this such a big deal.

 

We're not talking about something pretty blase.

 

Neonomicon is fairly out there.

 

In fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to find something like it in most libraries.

I bet most people posting were shocked when they heard this was actually in a public library.

 

This isn't about censorship or bad parenting. It's about commonly applied practical thinking. No on would ever expect something of that content in a public library, so no parent should be on the lookout....in the same way I don't have to view every football game my kid watches to make sure he doesn't see porn while watching a game (shouldn;t have to....it's football.)

She shouldnt have to...it's a public library.

 

If a library is going to provide material that crosses the commonly held thoughts of what libraries usually provide...then they need to put a much larger warning than they normally would.

 

There is nothing wrong with neonomicon. Just like there isn't anything wrong with porn. It just isn't what someone normally expects in a library...so something more in terms of warning is fully acceptable. removing it from the library also isn't too much to ask, as the book is still easily obtainable by other means.

 

-1.

 

So who gets to decide what's out there and what isn't? Censorship =

 

 

You guys don't read so good.

 

I never said anything even close to censorship. I said that if you are going to have material like this in a library, there needs to be much larger and identifiable warnings so that rightfully unsuspecting patrons don't stumble across it.

And before you tell me how hard it is to "stumble across" something at a library....go to one. It's easy as drinking a glass of water.

 

And anyone who doesn't think neonomicon is "out there" (meaning outside the general accepted public library material), well....I don't know what to say to you.

 

I will repeat...nothing wrong with neonomicon (or straight up porn for that matter IMHO)....I'm just saying that if it's in a library where anyone can get their hands on it (there aren't a lot of cops standing guard over library stacks), there needs to be a very large and very obvious notation as to the contents.

 

How is that censorship in any way?

[dupont2005]

But wasn't it is an adult section and isn't it marked for mature readers? If not then sure, do that. If so then I don't know what to say. Maybe it's the libraries fault. Maybe it's the parent's fault. It most definitely not Alan Moore's fault though.

[shrunkenhead]

Why is this such a big deal.

 

We're not talking about something pretty blase.

 

Neonomicon is fairly out there.

 

In fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to find something like it in most libraries.

I bet most people posting were shocked when they heard this was actually in a public library.

 

This isn't about censorship or bad parenting. It's about commonly applied practical thinking. No on would ever expect something of that content in a public library, so no parent should be on the lookout....in the same way I don't have to view every football game my kid watches to make sure he doesn't see porn while watching a game (shouldn;t have to....it's football.)

She shouldnt have to...it's a public library.

 

If a library is going to provide material that crosses the commonly held thoughts of what libraries usually provide...then they need to put a much larger warning than they normally would.

 

There is nothing wrong with neonomicon. Just like there isn't anything wrong with porn. It just isn't what someone normally expects in a library...so something more in terms of warning is fully acceptable. removing it from the library also isn't too much to ask, as the book is still easily obtainable by other means.

 

-1.

 

So who gets to decide what's out there and what isn't? Censorship =

 

 

You guys don't read so good.

 

I never said anything even close to censorship. I said that if you are going to have material like this in a library, there needs to be much larger and identifiable warnings so that rightfully unsuspecting patrons don't stumble across it.

And before you tell me how hard it is to "stumble across" something at a library....go to one. It's easy as drinking a glass of water.

 

And anyone who doesn't think neonomicon is "out there" (meaning outside the general accepted public library material), well....I don't know what to say to you.

 

I will repeat...nothing wrong with neonomicon (or straight up porn for that matter IMHO)....I'm just saying that if it's in a library where anyone can get their hands on it (there aren't a lot of cops standing guard over library stacks), there needs to be a very large and very obvious notation as to the contents.

 

How is that censorship in any way?

 

I disagree with your comparison of Neonomicon to "straight up porn." It implies that somebody might actually get off on Neonomicon, which seems to me impossible. It has a lot of sex, but it's not a sexy story in any way. I think that's part of the point of the narrative.

 

And that's exactly what the mom in that news story didn't get, either.

 

So what distinguishes Neonomicon from, say, Girl with the Dragon Tattoo? That book features a violent rape. You're going to find it any given public library. It seems to me the difference is the inclusion of pictures, and to slap huge warnings and segregate Neonomicon while placing Girl with the Dragon Tattoo in the "new releases" section is prejudicial against the comic medium.

 

There are many kinds of censorship and varying degrees. It's not an all-or-nothing situation.

[PovertyRow]

I find it puzzling that we are not protesting film ratings more.

 

I have seen on the internet several pages of this.Some certainly qualifies as NC17 - and if I posted some of it my post would be removed and I may even glean a strike or wrist slap.

 

NC17 is defined as:

 

"Signifies that the rating board believes that most American parents would feel that the film is patently adult and that children age 17 and under should not be admitted to it. The film may contain explicit sex scenes, an accumulation of sexually-oriented language, and/or scenes of excessive violence. The NC-17 designation does not, however, signify that the rated film is obscene or pornographic in terms of sex, language or violence."

 

It sounds like the library is using the equivalent of an an R rating for their max rating...aka "Adult". In film this is:

 

"Signifies that the rating board has concluded that the film rated may contain some adult material. Parents are urged to learn more about the film before taking their children to see it. A R may be assigned due to, among other things, a film's use of language, theme, violence, sex or its portrayal of drug use."

 

Using such a rating distinction would not be censorship, as the books would still be housed in the library but with different access..

[Ryan.]

Why is this such a big deal.

 

We're not talking about something pretty blase.

 

Neonomicon is fairly out there.

 

In fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to find something like it in most libraries.

I bet most people posting were shocked when they heard this was actually in a public library.

 

This isn't about censorship or bad parenting. It's about commonly applied practical thinking. No on would ever expect something of that content in a public library, so no parent should be on the lookout....in the same way I don't have to view every football game my kid watches to make sure he doesn't see porn while watching a game (shouldn;t have to....it's football.)

She shouldnt have to...it's a public library.

 

If a library is going to provide material that crosses the commonly held thoughts of what libraries usually provide...then they need to put a much larger warning than they normally would.

 

There is nothing wrong with neonomicon. Just like there isn't anything wrong with porn. It just isn't what someone normally expects in a library...so something more in terms of warning is fully acceptable. removing it from the library also isn't too much to ask, as the book is still easily obtainable by other means.

 

-1.

 

So who gets to decide what's out there and what isn't? Censorship =

 

 

You guys don't read so good.

 

I never said anything even close to censorship. I said that if you are going to have material like this in a library, there needs to be much larger and identifiable warnings so that rightfully unsuspecting patrons don't stumble across it.

And before you tell me how hard it is to "stumble across" something at a library....go to one. It's easy as drinking a glass of water.

 

And anyone who doesn't think neonomicon is "out there" (meaning outside the general accepted public library material), well....I don't know what to say to you.

 

I will repeat...nothing wrong with neonomicon (or straight up porn for that matter IMHO)....I'm just saying that if it's in a library where anyone can get their hands on it (there aren't a lot of cops standing guard over library stacks), there needs to be a very large and very obvious notation as to the contents.

 

How is that censorship in any way?

 

You don't understand censorship so good.

[drakesfuture]

Why is this such a big deal.

 

We're not talking about something pretty blase.

 

Neonomicon is fairly out there.

 

In fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to find something like it in most libraries.

I bet most people posting were shocked when they heard this was actually in a public library.

 

This isn't about censorship or bad parenting. It's about commonly applied practical thinking. No on would ever expect something of that content in a public library, so no parent should be on the lookout....in the same way I don't have to view every football game my kid watches to make sure he doesn't see porn while watching a game (shouldn;t have to....it's football.)

She shouldnt have to...it's a public library.

 

If a library is going to provide material that crosses the commonly held thoughts of what libraries usually provide...then they need to put a much larger warning than they normally would.

 

There is nothing wrong with neonomicon. Just like there isn't anything wrong with porn. It just isn't what someone normally expects in a library...so something more in terms of warning is fully acceptable. removing it from the library also isn't too much to ask, as the book is still easily obtainable by other means.

 

-1.

 

So who gets to decide what's out there and what isn't? Censorship =

 

 

You guys don't read so good.

 

I never said anything even close to censorship. I said that if you are going to have material like this in a library, there needs to be much larger and identifiable warnings so that rightfully unsuspecting patrons don't stumble across it.

And before you tell me how hard it is to "stumble across" something at a library....go to one. It's easy as drinking a glass of water.

 

And anyone who doesn't think neonomicon is "out there" (meaning outside the general accepted public library material), well....I don't know what to say to you.

 

I will repeat...nothing wrong with neonomicon (or straight up porn for that matter IMHO)....I'm just saying that if it's in a library where anyone can get their hands on it (there aren't a lot of cops standing guard over library stacks), there needs to be a very large and very obvious notation as to the contents.

 

How is that censorship in any way?

 

I disagree with your comparison of Neonomicon to "straight up porn." It implies that somebody might actually get off on Neonomicon, which seems to me impossible. It has a lot of sex, but it's not a sexy story in any way. I think that's part of the point of the narrative.

 

And that's exactly what the mom in that news story didn't get, either.

 

So what distinguishes Neonomicon from, say, Girl with the Dragon Tattoo? That book features a violent rape. You're going to find it any given public library. It seems to me the difference is the inclusion of pictures, and to slap huge warnings and segregate Neonomicon while placing Girl with the Dragon Tattoo in the "new releases" section is prejudicial against the comic medium.

 

There are many kinds of censorship and varying degrees. It's not an all-or-nothing situation.

 

 

Geez. I swear, some of you only read part of a post then reply.

 

I didn't say that Neonomicon is porn. I said there is nothing wrong (for the right audience) with Neonomicon. I also said there is nothing wrong (for the right audience) with porn.

 

My point is that censorship is bad....but common sensical warnings and cautions should be taken so the "wrong" audience (young kids) arent exposed to them.

 

 

Also....implying that the Girl with the Dragon Tatoo and Neonomicon are the same is disingenuous and you know it.

[drakesfuture]

Why is this such a big deal.

 

We're not talking about something pretty blase.

 

Neonomicon is fairly out there.

 

In fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to find something like it in most libraries.

I bet most people posting were shocked when they heard this was actually in a public library.

 

This isn't about censorship or bad parenting. It's about commonly applied practical thinking. No on would ever expect something of that content in a public library, so no parent should be on the lookout....in the same way I don't have to view every football game my kid watches to make sure he doesn't see porn while watching a game (shouldn;t have to....it's football.)

She shouldnt have to...it's a public library.

 

If a library is going to provide material that crosses the commonly held thoughts of what libraries usually provide...then they need to put a much larger warning than they normally would.

 

There is nothing wrong with neonomicon. Just like there isn't anything wrong with porn. It just isn't what someone normally expects in a library...so something more in terms of warning is fully acceptable. removing it from the library also isn't too much to ask, as the book is still easily obtainable by other means.

 

-1.

 

So who gets to decide what's out there and what isn't? Censorship =

 

 

You guys don't read so good.

 

I never said anything even close to censorship. I said that if you are going to have material like this in a library, there needs to be much larger and identifiable warnings so that rightfully unsuspecting patrons don't stumble across it.

And before you tell me how hard it is to "stumble across" something at a library....go to one. It's easy as drinking a glass of water.

 

And anyone who doesn't think neonomicon is "out there" (meaning outside the general accepted public library material), well....I don't know what to say to you.

 

I will repeat...nothing wrong with neonomicon (or straight up porn for that matter IMHO)....I'm just saying that if it's in a library where anyone can get their hands on it (there aren't a lot of cops standing guard over library stacks), there needs to be a very large and very obvious notation as to the contents.

 

How is that censorship in any way?

 

You don't understand censorship so good.

 

 

Explain how what i described is censorship. Go 'head.

[Heresy]

Why is this such a big deal.

 

We're not talking about something pretty blase.

 

Neonomicon is fairly out there.

 

In fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to find something like it in most libraries.

I bet most people posting were shocked when they heard this was actually in a public library.

 

This isn't about censorship or bad parenting. It's about commonly applied practical thinking. No on would ever expect something of that content in a public library, so no parent should be on the lookout....in the same way I don't have to view every football game my kid watches to make sure he doesn't see porn while watching a game (shouldn;t have to....it's football.)

She shouldnt have to...it's a public library.

 

If a library is going to provide material that crosses the commonly held thoughts of what libraries usually provide...then they need to put a much larger warning than they normally would.

 

There is nothing wrong with neonomicon. Just like there isn't anything wrong with porn. It just isn't what someone normally expects in a library...so something more in terms of warning is fully acceptable. removing it from the library also isn't too much to ask, as the book is still easily obtainable by other means.

 

-1.

 

So who gets to decide what's out there and what isn't? Censorship =

 

 

You guys don't read so good.

 

I never said anything even close to censorship. I said that if you are going to have material like this in a library, there needs to be much larger and identifiable warnings so that rightfully unsuspecting patrons don't stumble across it.

And before you tell me how hard it is to "stumble across" something at a library....go to one. It's easy as drinking a glass of water.

 

And anyone who doesn't think neonomicon is "out there" (meaning outside the general accepted public library material), well....I don't know what to say to you.

 

I will repeat...nothing wrong with neonomicon (or straight up porn for that matter IMHO)....I'm just saying that if it's in a library where anyone can get their hands on it (there aren't a lot of cops standing guard over library stacks), there needs to be a very large and very obvious notation as to the contents.

 

How is that censorship in any way?

 

I disagree with your comparison of Neonomicon to "straight up porn." It implies that somebody might actually get off on Neonomicon, which seems to me impossible. It has a lot of sex, but it's not a sexy story in any way. I think that's part of the point of the narrative.

 

And that's exactly what the mom in that news story didn't get, either.

 

So what distinguishes Neonomicon from, say, Girl with the Dragon Tattoo? That book features a violent rape. You're going to find it any given public library. It seems to me the difference is the inclusion of pictures, and to slap huge warnings and segregate Neonomicon while placing Girl with the Dragon Tattoo in the "new releases" section is prejudicial against the comic medium.

 

There are many kinds of censorship and varying degrees. It's not an all-or-nothing situation.

 

 

Geez. I swear, some of you only read part of a post then reply.

 

I didn't say that Neonomicon is porn. I said there is nothing wrong (for the right audience) with Neonomicon. I also said there is nothing wrong (for the right audience) with porn.

 

My point is that censorship is bad....but common sensical warnings and cautions should be taken so the "wrong" audience (young kids) arent exposed to them.

 

 

Also....implying that the Girl with the Dragon Tatoo and Neonomicon are the same is disingenuous and you know it.

 

"Common sensical" warnings like having it in the mature section and requiring it be signed out by an adult?

 

There is nothing disingenuous about comparing Neonomicon and TGwTDT, except one is clearly fantasy and the other is 'real-world' rape/torture/murder.

[shrunkenhead]

 

Geez. I swear, some of you only read part of a post then reply.

 

I didn't say that Neonomicon is porn. I said there is nothing wrong (for the right audience) with Neonomicon. I also said there is nothing wrong (for the right audience) with porn.

 

My point is that censorship is bad....but common sensical warnings and cautions should be taken so the "wrong" audience (young kids) arent exposed to them.

 

 

Also....implying that the Girl with the Dragon Tatoo and Neonomicon are the same is disingenuous and you know it.

 

Sorry, I don't see how it's disingenuous at all. The tone of your post leaves me thinking that you don't really want to have a discussion. You just want to argue and be the loudest voice.

[comicwiz]

I have a feeling the library you're going to is different from the libraries in South Carolina, for some reason

 

I'll be honest, I haven't been in a public library in years that I can remember. I'm pretty sure that adult romance novels will have graphic (written) imagery of love making in them though and I'd expect to find more than a few books in a library with that sort of content, wouldn't you?

 

Or is sex completely forbidden in all library content?

 

We have several libraries in our area and we use them frequently. I even worked at a University Library while still in school. I have never seen an "Adult" section in any library here, and as Sal said, to use the video store interpretation of "Adult section" is a misnomer.

 

On a somewhat related note, I recently started supplying a local retailer with back-issue inventory. It is a nostalgic-themed shop, and so far I've moved about 500 comics in the space of a month. One of the conditions was that the comics needed to be approved by the comics code.

[mikenyc]

Can anyone make a valid argument as to why that particular title should be in a publicly funded institution?

 

Why would the CBLDF choose to defend this book when it depicts our hobby in a horrible light. The gratuitous rape and murder and torture may not espouse the public's support.

 

 

Because Alan Moore is comicdom's canonical modern author, end of story.

 

Start scrubbing literature because it features too much sex and violence, and you lose the Western canon in minutes.

 

You lose the Bible, too. That's got more rape, murder, and torture than anything Moore has ever offered up.

 

 

If that piece of mess represents the work of our modern day anything, we are screwed.

 

I bought and read every issue and the term gratuitous seems an apt adjective as any. How many rapes are needed to move the plot along? How much violence is needed? It's like being a Robert Deniro fan and saying his work in "Rocky and Bullwinkle" was incredible.

 

Not every King book is "The Shining", not every Beatles song is "Hey Jude", sometimes a popular artist just doesn't succeed. It's when people defend an obvious miss that it starts to sound like a sycophant who can't see the forest for the trees.

 

It's also typical of our culture as Americans to believe that everything at anytime should be completely available, without restriction. Any limitation is immediately accused as being the catalyst to lead to an Orwellian like society. In reality, censorship occurs everyday on TV, in your child's schools, at your place of business, on these very boards.

 

There is a distinction between moderation and censorship. The decisions that are necessary to balance freedom of speech with social responsibility are necessary and you must look at the motivation behind the decision. When I'm with my friends at the bar and tell the joke about the priest, rabbi and a 10 pound salami, I don't see the problem. When I'm at my office, if I tell the same joke to my assistant it is frowned upon. Is management at my company censoring me?

 

Should everything that is printed be required to be placed in a library? The answer is no, there should be some standards used by the educated individuals who populate the library. If there were unlimited resources than maybe that's a different conversation, but if you must work within a budget I guarantee there are better ways to allocate those monies.

 

 

 

 

 

[Theagenes]

I find it puzzling that we are not protesting film ratings more.

 

I have seen on the internet several pages of this.Some certainly qualifies as NC17 - and if I posted some of it my post would be removed and I may even glean a strike or wrist slap.

 

NC17 is defined as:

 

"Signifies that the rating board believes that most American parents would feel that the film is patently adult and that children age 17 and under should not be admitted to it. The film may contain explicit sex scenes, an accumulation of sexually-oriented language, and/or scenes of excessive violence. The NC-17 designation does not, however, signify that the rated film is obscene or pornographic in terms of sex, language or violence."

 

It sounds like the library is using the equivalent of an an R rating for their max rating...aka "Adult". In film this is:

 

"Signifies that the rating board has concluded that the film rated may contain some adult material. Parents are urged to learn more about the film before taking their children to see it. A R may be assigned due to, among other things, a film's use of language, theme, violence, sex or its portrayal of drug use."

 

Using such a rating distinction would not be censorship, as the books would still be housed in the library but with different access..

 

Michael, I actually have a huge problem with the NC-17 rating in particular. It is often applied arbitrarily with little consistency and it is effectively a death sentence for a film. As such it stifles creativity as film makers (particularly those that wish to explore sexual themes) have to change their intended product to meet that standards of what a board of people like drakesfuture deem to be "normal" and not "out there." That is one reason why some of the best stuff is on pay cable right now. If Game of Thrones, Borgias, or Spartacus were released theatrically as is, they would all receive an NC-17 and nobody would ever have the chance to see it.

 

There is nothing in Neonomicon that is more explicit than those three shows and they are very much mainstream for much of America (maybe not SC though). Neonomicon is an award-winning graphic novel (Bram Stoker Award from the Horror Writers Assoc.) by a creator considered to be one of the greatest writers of all time in the graphic medium (whether or not you personally like his work). It absolutely deserves to be in a public library. I would love to see anyone explain to me why it should not be.

 

I have no problem with general guidelines (the video game industry does pretty well with E, T, and M) to help parents out, but that should not be a crutch that absolves parents from keeping tabs on what kind of information their kids are taking in. Kids mature at different rates and many books, films, etc. are borderline in age-appropriateness. In the case of this library, they do have general guidelines. The fact that a "comic book" was in the adult section and not the children's or young adult sections (which I'm sure this library probably have) should have been a red flag that maybe this isn't your typical "funny book" and further due diligence is warranted.

 

And just to clear things up, I read this digitally and haven't seen the actual hardcover. Does it say "Mature" anywhere as most graphic novels like this do? If not then, it should. That kind of general label is perfectly appropriate.

[Jeffro.]

Neonomicon is really bad, too, as far as ADULT THEMES is concerned. Other than Crossed, I can't think of a more whince-worthy modern GN.

 

One wonders why people feel the need to produce stories with these themes.

[shrunkenhead]

Neonomicon is really bad, too, as far as ADULT THEMES is concerned. Other than Crossed, I can't think of a more whince-worthy modern GN.

 

One wonders why people feel the need to produce stories with these themes.

 

What, we should just read and write stories where the good guys win and everybody gets married?

[sterlingcomics]

The parent should have actually parented.

 

Seduction of the Innocent continues, eh?

[Jeffro.]

Neonomicon is really bad, too, as far as ADULT THEMES is concerned. Other than Crossed, I can't think of a more whince-worthy modern GN.

 

One wonders why people feel the need to produce stories with these themes.

 

What, we should just read and write stories where the good guys win and everybody gets married?

 

Would it you off if I said yes? Because I can match troll bait with troll bait.

[shrunkenhead]

Neonomicon is really bad, too, as far as ADULT THEMES is concerned. Other than Crossed, I can't think of a more whince-worthy modern GN.

 

One wonders why people feel the need to produce stories with these themes.

 

What, we should just read and write stories where the good guys win and everybody gets married?

 

Would it you off if I said yes? Because I can match troll bait with troll bait.

 

Sorry, didn't mean to sound troll-y. Just trying to say that exploring the dark side of human consciousness is pretty integral to, you know, being human. Moore's not doing anything new, or Ennis/Lapham with crossed. You can track this trajectory back to Greek tragedy.

[Jeffro.]

Sorry, didn't mean to sound troll-y. Just trying to say that exploring the dark side of human consciousness is pretty integral to, you know, being human. Moore's not doing anything new, or Ennis/Lapham with crossed. You can track this trajectory back to Greek tragedy.

 

Can't disagree with any of that. However, I think (and this is merely personal opinion here) that certain lines can be crossed (no pun itended) and I do question why people feel the need to explore such themes and cross such lines. I also don't find it entertaining in the least.