9.2 versus 9.6 Ethics versus Reality.

[NoImSpartacus]

 

Hello Everyone,

I figured I would give an example of something that happened recently while visiting a store. A 15 year old boy comes in and is looking at a book that is raw. Its X-Men # 101 Phoenix Origin. The kid saved alot of money to buy on or two really nice books. Dealer sold book with a 9.6 sticker on it and wants a price of

$ 460. Kid looks in wonder at the book and purchases proclaiming how he cant wait to send it off to CGC to be officially cases and have his graded book for posterity. Kid gets his book back from CGC and shows me the book slabbed with a 9.2 grade. Book value $ 135.00. Kid who worked for hard money paid $ 460.00 for a $ 135.00 book.

 

Questions:

A. Does kid get his money back cause dealer said it was 9.6 and not 9.2?

B. Does kid have to eat the book because after all, the book was raw and not slabbed, so its up to him to decide if its a 9.6 or a 9.2 book? If kid is wrong in his choice of grade, does he eat the book.

C. Is dealer obligated to give refund back to the kid.

D. Would this situation and answer to questions above change in any way if the buyer was a 37 year old purchasing the same book instead of a 15 year old?

 

I am asking these questions simply because I am seeing some horror stories over the past few months and wish to see parameters of what correct procedures are in the market.

 

Should this practice continue of seeing Raw high graded and then seeing the books coming back much lower from CGC, it doesnt take much more of a reason for people to leave collecting. How many times can a kid or even and adult take a loss of 3 times what they paid for a book?

[delekkerste]

Should this practice continue of seeing Raw high graded and then seeing the books coming back much lower from CGC, it doesnt take much more of a reason for people to leave collecting. How many times can a kid or even and adult take a loss of 3 times what they paid for a book?

 

[FlyingDonut]

Hello Everyone,

I figured I would give an example of something that happened recently while visiting a store. A 15 year old boy comes in and is looking at a book that is raw. Its X-Men # 101 Phoenix Origin. The kid saved alot of money to buy on or two really nice books. Dealer sold book with a 9.6 sticker on it and wants a price of

$ 460. Kid looks in wonder at the book and purchases proclaiming how he cant wait to send it off to CGC to be officially cases and have his graded book for posterity. Kid gets his book back from CGC and shows me the book slabbed with a 9.2 grade. Book value $ 135.00. Kid who worked for hard money paid $ 460.00 for a $ 135.00 book.

 

Questions:

A. Does kid get his money back cause dealer said it was 9.6 and not 9.2?

B. Does kid have to eat the book because after all, the book was raw and not slabbed, so its up to him to decide if its a 9.6 or a 9.2 book? If kid is wrong in his choice of grade, does he eat the book.

C. Is dealer obligated to give refund back to the kid.

D. Would this situation and answer to questions above change in any way if the buyer was a 37 year old purchasing the same book instead of a 15 year old?

 

I am asking these questions simply because I am seeing some horror stories over the past few months and wish to see parameters of what correct procedures are in the market.

 

Should this practice continue of seeing Raw high graded and then seeing the books coming back much lower from CGC, it doesnt take much more of a reason for people to leave collecting. How many times can a kid or even and adult take a loss of 3 times what they paid for a book?

 

Kid should have NOT PAID $460 for a raw copy of X-Men 101. That's just [!@#%^&^] stupid. That being said, the dealer is a scumbag. Please post the dealer so we can avoid him.

[deathlok]

As with most retail fields, it is "Buyer Beware". Sellers can offer what they feel is a very subjective grade. Which is what CGC does. Just because CGC says it's a 9.2 doesn't mean that it is a 9.2.

 

On the other hand you have the matter of ethics in business. Ethically is the seller obligated to refund some of the money? Should the kid have asked the seller if about a refund on grading, he obviously knew he was gonna submit it to CGC?

 

I'm sure there will be many different responses.

[a_mysterious_penguin-migra]

Would this situation and answer to questions above change in any way if the buyer was a 37 year old purchasing the same book instead of a 15 year old?

 

This is the key to me. Adults can take care of themselves, so in general, I would say that if both buyer and seller agree on the grade and a price at the time of sale, then the CGC grade should not ordinarily be guaranteed (unless we're talking some massive discrepancy). However, given that we're talking about a kid, and we all know how it feels to be that kid, I would refund his money in a heartbeat if I was the seller.

[lighthouse]

Add me to the "dealer is a jerk" crew...

 

I don't have any problem including a markup to hedge your bets on high grade stuff. But if the dealer truly believed this was a 9.6 copy and was worth $400+ there is no good reason for him to have not slabbed it. If he had it raw with a price of $180 or so, I don't think the kid would have a beef. That falls into the "pays your money, takes your chances" game. But when you start getting into the $300 over guide range on a Modern book, you need to slab it if you want to charge that price.

 

If I have a raw book that I think is borderline 9.2-9.4, and 9.2s sell for $100 slabbed and 9.4s sell for $300 slabbed, I don't have any problem charging $150-160 raw. But if you're charging $400+ raw because you think it's a 9.6, you better be a more accurate grader than drbanner...

[THE_BEYONDER]

you better be a more accurate grader than drbanner...

 

Impossible

[burntboy]

Hello Everyone,

I figured I would give an example of something that happened recently while visiting a store. A 15 year old boy comes in and is looking at a book that is raw. Its X-Men # 101 Phoenix Origin. The kid saved alot of money to buy on or two really nice books. Dealer sold book with a 9.6 sticker on it and wants a price of

$ 460. Kid looks in wonder at the book and purchases proclaiming how he cant wait to send it off to CGC to be officially cases and have his graded book for posterity. Kid gets his book back from CGC and shows me the book slabbed with a 9.2 grade. Book value $ 135.00. Kid who worked for hard money paid $ 460.00 for a $ 135.00 book.

 

Questions:

A. Does kid get his money back cause dealer said it was 9.6 and not 9.2?

B. Does kid have to eat the book because after all, the book was raw and not slabbed, so its up to him to decide if its a 9.6 or a 9.2 book? If kid is wrong in his choice of grade, does he eat the book.

C. Is dealer obligated to give refund back to the kid.

D. Would this situation and answer to questions above change in any way if the buyer was a 37 year old purchasing the same book instead of a 15 year old?

 

I am asking these questions simply because I am seeing some horror stories over the past few months and wish to see parameters of what correct procedures are in the market.

 

Should this practice continue of seeing Raw high graded and then seeing the books coming back much lower from CGC, it doesnt take much more of a reason for people to leave collecting. How many times can a kid or even and adult take a loss of 3 times what they paid for a book?

 

crappy story - the dealer is not much different than most. and quite frankly, while the monetary difference between a 9.6 and 9.2 is enormous, the book quality isn't!!!

 

buyers , regardless of age,must beware. if you're gonna get it slabbed and are really into the final grade you better do your homework. how many tens of thousands of examples of this do we have?? it just that in the last 5 years or so, you can get an "official" grade that is generally consistent and quickly and fully realize that you got "screwed".........

 

i feel for the kid and would give him his dough back but don't feel the difference in grades is egregious enough to compel the seller to do so.....

[goldust40]

I would imagine that for every winner in the hobby there is a loser. This would have been a learning curve situation if the buyer had been 37. As it stands, this guy could be a casualty of the hobby - and in my opinion he was taken advantage of. He clearly had no experience or friends who could have coached him in the ways of the business (or life in general). He just blundered straight into a situation where he was out of his depth.

 

Rule # 1 in this hobby - never mind about CGC (despite their credentials) - if you're going to buy into it, learn how to grade, seek advice from anywhere and everywhere, and understand that it takes at least a year (usually longer) to get confident. Somebody should've put him in the direction of this Forum.....

[Jgel]

Dealer is a punk....loser....scum. Someone 35 can think "is this the best deal" at 15 you have to think as a dealer this kid really wants this book. You better be DAMN sure that the book is a 9.6 if you are gonna rape a 15 for it. This [!@#%^&^] can ruin a comic fan forever.

Jason

[greggy]

you better be a more accurate grader than drbanner...

 

Impossible

There is one on eBay!

[Foolkiller]

I don't think the dealer is really wrong if as Lighthouse stated, he genuinely believed the book was a 9.6. There's no obligation for the book to come back as a CGC 9.6. And there's no guarantee made by the shop owner that it will.

 

It's a sad life lesson to be learned that the kid won't soon forget about the value of money and being careful at how it's spent.

 

Now if the dealer did so intentionally, marking it up hoping that some kid would see it, want it and pay anything for it, that's a different story -- otherwise, caveat emptor.

 

The nice thing for the dealer to do would be to refund the kid some money... so he keeps himself interested in the hobby, but what kind of precedent are you setting? If you buy the book high, but it doesn't come back as advertised, then you get a refund? the best way to show these dealers who are marking their raw books at astronomical values is simple: don't buy from them.

[THE_BEYONDER]

The nice thing for the dealer to do would be to refund the kid some money... so he keeps himself interested in the hobby, but what kind of precedent are you setting? If you buy the book high, but it doesn't come back as advertised, then you get a refund?

 

Isn't that exactly what we expect from Ebay?

[rjpb]

I have to agree with Burntboy. An expensive lesson for the the kid - don't pay multiples of top guide , unless you feel confident that you can judge the grade - regardless of who else has graded it. That being said, if the dealer is interested in repeat and word of mouth customers for high grade raw at top dollar, he would be wise to make some accomodation, even if it is credit towards future purchases, whether or not he agrees with CGC's grade. The dealer may not have an ethical obligation to do so, but it would be good business.

 

Here's a hypothetical: 15 year old kid buys a slabbed 9.6 from his LCS for 3X top guide, he proudly posts it on these boards - the consensus is that it is overgraded( possibly due to post-slabbing damage) and there is no way the book deserves that grade - is there any obligation on the seller's part to make good, or does the label mean more than the book?

[rabidwolf]

I don't know all the facts. If the dealer warned the kid that the book may not get as high a grade as he had it marked, it would not be as bad. But if he presuured the kid into buying the book by reassurances of its qualiy, etc. thats a whole different story.

[THE_BEYONDER]

An expensive lesson for the the kid - don't pay multiples of top guide , unless you feel confident that you can judge the grade - regardless of who else has graded it.

 

I think the lesson would be:

 

Don't trust comic book dealers...as they are more than likely trying to screw you.

 

I young kid should be able to rely on the expertise of his local comic dealer. I don't think it's asking " too much " to be able to TRUST a seller.

[Jgel]

An expensive lesson for the the kid - don't pay multiples of top guide , unless you feel confident that you can judge the grade - regardless of who else has graded it.

 

I think the lesson would be:

 

Don't trust comic book dealers...as they are more than likely trying to screw you.

 

I young kid should be able to rely on the expertise of his local comic dealer. I don't think it's asking " too much " to be able to TRUST a seller.

 

Well said.

[CompleteRunComics]

 

Bottom line, kids get ripped off daily.

 

I have a bunch of "NM" silver age Avengers purchased when I was in my teens from Mile High Native American Pottery to prove it.

 

It breaks my little heart everytime I look at them. At that age I just assumed I was stuck with them.

 

CRC

[NoImSpartacus]

The problem it seems is that we all tend to think because the kid is 15 that the rules of engagement should be any different. I believe the rules should be no different for a 15 year and and apply to a 37 or 50 year old as well. I dont believe it matters if the 15 year old is innocent of grading standards or the 37 year old is better equipped in lifes experiences to know grading levels. I feel exactly this way:

If a dealer advertizes a book as a 9.6. It better be a 9.6. Nothing subjective about it. Its only subjective to the dealer who is selling it, not to the buyer who expects that grade. To the buyer, its absolute. A buyer is not expected to have to know grading at all. As a consumer, if the seller is selling it as such, thats what it should be. If the buyer can grade and know the difference all the better, but, NOT a requirement so far as being a consumer is concerned. I would love to see a dealer say in court to the judge that his grading of 9.6 is subjective at $ 460.00 when after certification it came back as a 9.2 at $ 130.00. We are past the point of subjectivity here and into cold reality. A loss of $ 330 on the part of the buyer. I feel wether or not the dealer knew the correct grade or not is not part of the obligation. Wether the buyer is 15, 37, or 50 is also not part of wether person should get a refund. I believe its simply, if you advertize it as such, you better know what your doing, cause it better be what you say it is in grade, otherwise, dont advertize it as such.

I have seen 4 instances of the above in the past two months. It doesnt take long to lose people from the comic market after these instances. All four times when these different people went back to 4 different dealers, the answer was always the same. "You see, the grading is subjective". But, no refund was offered?!?!?!?

To the seller, its subjective, to the buyer, its absolute.

I see the problem as being those grades of 9.2 to 9.8 where there is such small difference, anyone can be wrong. Then why advertize it as raw 9.2, 9.4, 9.6, 9.8. Ive had over 400 books sent in for certification. Ive compared them myself in those categories. Ill be cursed but the differences are so small between those grades that anyone can be wrong. So why advertize it with a sticker on a raw book?

[Foolkiller]

9.6 by who's standard?

 

That's the problem... you're stating that if the book doesn't come back CGC 9.6, the kid got ripped off.

 

I can't agree. A CGC grade is one grading standard and they don't have an absolute right to use the 10 pt. scale. If the dealer graded the book within his understanding of the grading guide, then that's what it is. Grading is part art, part science... it isn't completely absolute.

 

I'm curious as to what other lawyers would think about this playing out in court, but my take is that because of the subjective nature of grading, any dealer could say his opinion was a 9.6 with a completely straight face. How many dealers are doing currently? It's a commonly accepted practice in the hobby. There's all sorts of grading disputes -- and since grading calls into question a level of subjectivity, there isn't ONE standard. What if you don't use Overstreet standards but use (for example) some other guide's grading standard?

 

I understand, the numbers belie a certain CGC grade, and that's the perception... but dealers can advertise their books any way they choose -- nobody is forcing you to buy them. If you, as the buyer, take on the risk, then you are stuck with the book.