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9.2 versus 9.6 Ethics versus Reality.

246 posts in this topic

Stating a book is a 9.4 refers to the grade, not what a grading service later assigns to it. As the person who created and defined the 10 point grading scale for the Overstreet guide, which was later adopted by CGC, I can say with a certain degree of authority that references to a particular number grade only refers to the condition of the book. It does not refer to the grade that a grading service will assign to it. And in the end, if the people at CGC agree, all the better.

 

Ok, I'm very much a new kid on the block here, so forgive my impertinence, but I think there's a serious amount of disingenuousness being displayed in this thread. While it may be literally true that the 10-point scale is universal, and CGC just another party that uses it, the practical reality is that CGC's "opinion" of where a book falls on that scale has a substantial and unique impact on the price that book will command in the market. It's like you guys are standing around saying, "CGC? Oh you mean those guys in Florida? Ya, well hey, they have their opinion and I have mine. Who's to say which of us is right? It's all subjective anyway, so there's no point in complaining if they grade the book lower than I did." Give me a break.

 

I truly believe most high profile comic seller's like Metro, Bedrock, Comiclink, Blazing Bob, Motor City, investment collectibles amoung other's can grade fairly.

This does not mean CGC will always agree with their grading or they with CGC's. CGC is truly impartial with many graders on one book, and that gives the CGC grading a little slant that the big boys don't have. They purchase thousands of comics a month and can't afford to have three people count the pages, grade and give a restoration check to each book. They give what is a fair opinion to each book they look at, at a price they think is what they need/would like to get out of it. If a comic came back higher from CGC than the seller graded it, I have never seen/heard of the buyer running back to give the seller more money, so, why demand less. Resto is a different story and so is dealing with someone under age.

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First, Hello Vinny from Metropolis,

Jeff from the old Powerhouse stores.here I am No, I’m Spartacus that started this post. Been a long time. I remember when we where selling .25 cent books at Amityville. Kudos on how you have grown. My congratulations!!! I’m still buying golden age, but live in CA and FL now. I agree with your assessment on age should not matter. Here is my assessment of what happened at the store when kid went back with his book.

 

For those new to my original post. I have just returned from the comic shop where the book was sold to the 15 year old. I listened carefully from a small distance while looking over other books. The first thing that took place is the kid comes to the counter with his 9.2 X Men 101 Phoenix origina that dealer had sticker priced at 9.6. Dealer at first started to explain and then started passing the grading difference responsibility onto the kid. This was precisely what I believe was the problem in the first place ( The kid not knowing anything). This kid did not know what he was doing and placed his entire faith in the comic dealers word. After a little bit of time with kid getting upset, the dealer knew that the small confrontation could be heard by me standing only about 15 feet away as well as 2 others. Dealer turns to me and says “Do you believe this kid”. (The word “Believe” presented in this case meaning not that he doesn’t trust the kid but that the kid had some nerve). I then had to say something. All I said was these words. “I understand the predicament that the transaction with this young gentleman presents to you, but I also have to say from my years of dealing and collecting. In my opinion, it is not a good idea to place a sticker grade of 9.6 on a comic book unless you expect that grade to be taken as an absolute grade by this young buyer“.

After all the exchange we have had on the boards with this I believe the key factor here was the sticker being placed on the book as a 9.6. No sticker on the book with just a price would have possibly led to a different conclusion. At that point the dealer thought about it for a moment and then said, “ I can see where the confusion might be”. He then says, “Let me see what I can do”. He then says, “I have $ 170 into the book.” (If you recall, the 9.2 grades books out at about $ 135.00. Dealer must have bought it thinking it was a higher graded book, figured 9.6 and it did not work out. Dealer says to kid, “I will half the distance between the $ 170 I paid and the $ 460 comic sold for. This would give a refund of

$ 145.00. So basically, the kid will have paid $ 315.00 for a $ 135.00.book. Upon discussion with dealer and kid, both admonished they may be partially at fault. Kid for not knowing what he is doing and dealer for sticker on book. The dealer still came out ahead considering he only paid $ 170.00 but it was a lesson on both ends. The dealer was nice enough to do something and the kids were competent enough to understand why he didn’t get all his money back. (His Dad probably would have had a fit). I had a chance to speak to the kid after he left the store. Apparently he saw the second X-Men movie a while back and wanted that particular issue. He had been saving birthday money and so forth for a while now. He doesn’t drive so he takes the bicycle to this store. I assume this issue did not present itself too often so the moment it did, the kid must have jumped on it. Not because of the grade but because it was this big X-Men 101 book with Phoenix origin in this kids eyes. First time he bought a BIG book.

What is of interest:

I asked the kid why he thought the book was a 9.6. You know what he said, “ "Because it said so on the book" (meaning the sticker). I said, did the dealer say anything to you about the grade. Kid says “He just said it was almost a perfect copy and graded at 9.6”. I said:” Did you say anything to the dealer?” Kid said “I told him, Sounds good, OK!” I said, “Did the dealer give you any specifics about guarantees, etc. Kid says “ No, he just said it was a 9.6 cause that’s what it said on the book sticker and this was the only X-Men 101 I have seen come to this store, so I finally had the money to buy one.” I said to him “You have a book now where you did not get hurt too bad compared to the lose of more money and have learned lessons. I was curious so I asked, “What lessons have you learned”.

Do you know what the answer from the kid was???????

NEVER TRUST A COMIC BOOK DEALER, EVER AGAIN. He says “I lost a large amount of money because I trusted someone who is supposed take care of me as a customer in both grading and advice when I come in his store. Instead, I end up with a sticker grade that a "Maybe" and get hurt for lots of money. So much for comic books.

Interesting words huh?

 

The kid’s problem is only a mirror of what many of us are dealing with today. I wrote about this particular instance in the forum because I feel the implications here run far and wide. The are just a small piece of the problems to come as the price differences grow between 9.2, 9.4, 9.6, and 9.8 and the stakes become higher. We all know this. As grading gets tighter and price multiples widen our hobby is going into a new phase.

The mere fact that there is such a discrepancy of opinion in this area amongst all of our posts shows me that parameters need to be tightened up with a one-rule policy amongst all dealers and buyers in some form when a transaction takes place. Parameters that take care of both the seller and the buyer. Should something not be put in place, as those price differences widen, we are going to see quite a multiple of the problems that already exist. Once the youth is lost, there will be no future in the hobby.

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I would assume the OS Grading Guide is the basis used by both parties in determining the grade before the purchase. Regardless of CGC's outcome you were both in agreement as to the grade "NM" based on OS standards. Done deal.

 

Now, had the collector stated the book was a 9.4, inferring CGC, and you agreed it was a sharp copy, sent it in and received back a CGC 9.0, then I believe you should be able to return it. The seller is stating they know what a CGC 9.4 is, and you the buyer, having no literature on CGC's grading standards, are buying that book as a 9.4

 

The buyer would be the one inferring CGC, not the seller in your example. The seller is not even implying CGC confirmation of grade by using a numerical grade. The numerical grading system precedes the existence of CGC. While the popularity of CGC may be responsible for the shift among collectors and dealers in using numerical grades instead of alpha grades, it in no way cedes ownership of the 10 point system to CGC.

 

As to the earlier comment from someone asking for government regulation of comic book dealers. Please. I'm a die hard liberal who believes there are plenty of reasons for government oversight of business practices, but the idea that the grading of comic books needs to be regulated by a government authority is absurd.

 

On the topic of dealer behavior towards kids and teenagers seriously entering the back issue market, while there are all too many stories of niave collectors getting burned by unscrupulous dealers, there are also many tales of dealers encouraging the next generation of collectors by given them deals and advice on collecting. I remeber in the 70s when I was 13-15 and used to set up at Col. OH shows, Gary Dumm, a dealer from Cleveland (also a frequent illustrator for Harvey Pekar's American Splendor) was always willing to work out trades with me which were fair to both parties or even slightly to my advantage. These were trades that I would initiate, but as I also purchased books from him in those years, he treated me more like a fellow collector than just a customer.

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He says “I lost a large amount of money because I trusted someone who is supposed take care of me as a customer in both grading and advice when I come in his store. Instead, I end up with a sticker grade that a "Maybe" and get hurt for lots of money.

 

This is the only thing that bothers me. Why is the dealer supposed to take care of the customer and be trusted? Why? The dealer is in business to make money. He's not there as a public service. Just because the kid happened to be the buyer hes should lose money on the book from the sale?

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He doesn’t drive so he takes the bicycle to this store.

 

Well, that's one way a 9.6 could become a 9.2. Did he take it home in a backpack, or was it gripped in a bag dangling off the handlebars?

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Spartacus, I'm curious. Is the LCS dealer mentioned in this thread, the same one who showed you the seriously overgraded books you mention in your other thread?

 

If he is a different dealer, how would you say his grading stacks up in general - knowing this would help in judging the legitamacy of his original 9.6 grade on the X-Men 101.

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This is the only thing that bothers me. Why is the dealer supposed to take care of the customer and be trusted? Why? The dealer is in business to make money. He's not there as a public service.

 

You sell used cars for a living, don't you? wink.gif

 

yeah you lookin' to buy? I have a great looking Ford Taurus with low mileage, like new. All automatic, AC, PW, CC, and AM/FM CD. I can make you a fair deal. Let me know.

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This is the only thing that bothers me. Why is the dealer supposed to take care of the customer and be trusted? Why? The dealer is in business to make money. He's not there as a public service. Just because the kid happened to be the buyer hes should lose money on the book from the sale?

 

This kind of attitude not only drives innocent kids out of the hobby, but it drives knowledgable adults out as well. Behind the outright crooks, this is what I hate most about collecting vintage comics. Takes the enjoyment out of it knowing that some of the people you deal with are out to [!@#%^&^] you over for as much as they can get away with. frown.gif

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I truly believe most high profile comic seller's like Metro, Bedrock, Comiclink, Blazing Bob, Motor City, investment collectibles amoung other's can grade fairly.

This does not mean CGC will always agree with their grading or they with CGC's. CGC is truly impartial with many graders on one book, and that gives the CGC grading a little slant that the big boys don't have. They purchase thousands of comics a month and can't afford to have three people count the pages, grade and give a restoration check to each book. They give what is a fair opinion to each book they look at, at a price they think is what they need/would like to get out of it.

 

I agree, and I certainly don't mean to imply that anyone is less honest or competent than CGC. I'm just saying that in terms of the market value of a book, the CGC label creates a significant and unique premium. Say I buy a comic from Metro, for instance, that they grade at 9.6, but when I submit it to CGC it comes back a 9.2. If I then tried to sell if for 9.6 prices and justified that price by saying that Metro graded it that high, I'd be laughed off the boards. Given that reality, I just think it's disingenuous for people to act like CGC's grade is just another subjective opinion in the bunch.

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By the way, I'm glad to hear the kid recovered at least some of his money, Spartacus. Good for you for taking the time to help him out. It's too bad he's been left with such a sour taste for the comics industry, but at least he'll be wiser for the experience. Hopefully, he'll be able to get past it and enjoy collecting anyway.

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Hello rjpb,

Yes, same dealer. Appears to be off in grade at least a half grade on all lower grade books and more in the upper grade books when we get into 8.5 or over. Good is always vg, vg is always fine, His 8.5s I believe he would call a 9.2.

But, herein is the also the problem. As one of our other compatriots on the board said, "Who am I to be the definitive answer on the store owners grading". All I can do is use my experience as well over all these years. Even with all my experience, I still find those upper grades of 9.4, 9.6, 9.8 a total [!@#%^&^] shoot. The differences being minute. This is why I say the hobby is going to have to come to some type of universal agreement between buyers and sellers. Not talking Government Intervention which I think would be way over the hill as one gent mentioned. Just a standard procedure that is known amongst all dealers and buyers to protect each other.

Most of us older gents can take care of ourselves regarding some business practices but when you see a youngster get hit and you realize at the same time the young buyer lacked the knowledge and was putting faith in dealer as his guide and mentor its a little disheartening.

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The VF/NM in your example got me thinking. If a CGC 9.2 is NM- and a CGC 8.5 is a VF+, WTF is a 9.0 VF/NM? I didn't think there was anything between a VF+ and a NM-?

 

CRC

 

You know, I have always hated "slanted" grades. Either, it's VF or it's NM. How can it be both at the same time?

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This is the only thing that bothers me. Why is the dealer supposed to take care of the customer and be trusted? Why? The dealer is in business to make money. He's not there as a public service. Just because the kid happened to be the buyer hes should lose money on the book from the sale?

 

This kind of attitude not only drives innocent kids out of the hobby, but it drives knowledgable adults out as well. Behind the outright crooks, this is what I hate most about collecting vintage comics. Takes the enjoyment out of it knowing that some of the people you deal with are out to [!@#%^&^] you over for as much as they can get away with. frown.gif

 

You speak as if this attitude is exclusive to comic collecting....

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I asked the kid why he thought the book was a 9.6. You know what he said, “ "Because it said so on the book" (meaning the sticker). I said, did the dealer say anything to you about the grade. Kid says “He just said it was almost a perfect copy and graded at 9.6”. I said:” Did you say anything to the dealer?” Kid said “I told him, Sounds good, OK!” I said, “Did the dealer give you any specifics about guarantees, etc. Kid says “ No, he just said it was a 9.6 cause that’s what it said on the book sticker and this was the only X-Men 101 I have seen come to this store, so I finally had the money to buy one.” I said to him “You have a book now where you did not get hurt too bad compared to the lose of more money and have learned lessons. I was curious so I asked, “What lessons have you learned”.

Do you know what the answer from the kid was???????

NEVER TRUST A COMIC BOOK DEALER, EVER AGAIN. He says “I lost a large amount of money because I trusted someone who is supposed take care of me as a customer in both grading and advice when I come in his store. Instead, I end up with a sticker grade that a "Maybe" and get hurt for lots of money. So much for comic books.

 

When I was a pledge at my fraternity, one of the brothers told me something that I though was extremely profound. He told me, "It is not pain which causes your suffering, it is your attitude towards that pain which causes your suffering." There were many lessons to be learned in this situation, but this is the one that the kid choose to take home. The sad fact is, if something like this happened again somewhere else, he WILL lose money again. I think that the dealer should actually be COMMENDED for returning some of the money whereas he had no obligation to do so at all.

 

Individuals suffer traumatic experiences all the time and this one pales in comparison to some of the other horrors that some younger kids face. If this is the worst thing that ever happens to this kid in his pre-adult life, then he is luckier than 99% of the individuals in the world. The saddest fact to this whole story is that he is still not mature enough to accept even partial responsibility for his mistake. If he cannot learn a proper lesson from this experience, then the cycle of pain and suffering will continue.

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Now I have to read this whole thread again and try to find a secondary lesson.

 

How about; If you have kids, don't get them into comics.

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This is the only thing that bothers me. Why is the dealer supposed to take care of the customer and be trusted? Why? The dealer is in business to make money. He's not there as a public service. Just because the kid happened to be the buyer hes should lose money on the book from the sale?

 

This kind of attitude not only drives innocent kids out of the hobby, but it drives knowledgable adults out as well. Behind the outright crooks, this is what I hate most about collecting vintage comics. Takes the enjoyment out of it knowing that some of the people you deal with are out to [!@#%^&^] you over for as much as they can get away with. frown.gif

 

That's a little naive FF. Who said the dealer was crooked? You assume he is. The dealer felt that the book was a NM+ book and priced it accordingly.

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