Me, the NOD, and regret.

[blazingbob]

Let me say that even though CGC doesn't publish their standards if you graded to their "tight" phases you became a better grader. Doesn't mean you have to change when they get "loose" which just causes you problems.

 

I've learned a lot of things from talking to CGC graders and debating grades.

[Transplant]

Definitely Bob. I was actually lumping both together. More people sending books to get pressed and more people, who shouldn't be pressing, are pressing their own books.

[fantastic_four]

When you say "no standard of grading" how exactly would we get everyone to accept the same standard. The closest thing is CGC or Overstreet, and even there we have disagreement.

 

By getting reasonable people with influence (Overstreet, CGC, and some major dealers who are expert graders) to either actively contribute to creating a standard, or if they prefer not to do so, then by trying to better refine the broad strokes those influential people have already brushed out and getting them to agree with and endorse that work. Overstreet amended his standards based upon some different ideas CGC had after they entered the marketplace--I have seen plenty of willingness for Overstreet, Borock, and Haspel to open their minds to each other's ideas about the grading standard and have seen no reason to think Litch thinks any differently.

[comicwiz]

Awhile back I called out a book as being "worked on." I was instantly culled into the corner of alarmist, and told by another reputable member of these boards that they knew the owner, and that the book was a straight resub. I took the matter to PM and demonstrated exactly why and how the book had been worked on by comparing before and after scans of the book before it was taken from a 9.4 to 9.6.

 

I mention this point because on the topic of "standardizing" and transparency, there is absolutely zero motivation or inclination by those choosing to recondition books for upgrade or quick flip to ask EXACTLY what is being done to the book. I'm not sure why, but maybe the money blinds them to the point where it just doesn't matter to them how, as long as it's winner each time.

 

I am not saying this as a way to demonize those in the reconditioning business, but it seems that performing work on books to achieve the highest possible grade is good for repeat business, but not always good for a hobby, especially when its later discovered that the book went through quite a bit more work to get the grade it attained.

 

You can blame CGC or Overstreet until the cows come home, but until we assume some responsibility for turning a blind eye or showing no inclination to ask what's being done to our books, we are all just as much to blame.

[joeypost]

I don't necessarily agree with Pat. Back in those days, reading the boards could be a very frustrating experience. .

 

You think you had it bad, it was 10x more frustrating for those on the side of honesty and disclosure.

 

What is your definition of honesty?

[fantastic_four]

Grading is NOT subjective.

 

There are common things we all agree on.

 

I couldn't agree more. The popular view appears to be that grading is subjective and that people will never agree on a standard, but I disagree with them strongly because as you say, the industry has tended to accept the standards set by Overstreet and CGC already. As you suggest, the CBCA is an entity that could help refine the standard--but I really haven't seen anyone involved with it that has an interest in doing so. As you suggested, there's no money in it, so lacking that you'd need someone with a passion for grading and a motivation to work towards establishing a standard, but I've seen no such person who is also open-minded enough to work to build consensus as opposed to ignoring or even flaming other influential people who have helped establish the grading standards we do have.

[Foolkiller]

Grading is NOT subjective.

 

There are common things we all agree on.

 

Are Overstreet advisors taught how to grade? By who?

 

Ever read the Grading guide? What a contradicting publication. I gave up on it after a few pages.

 

I was taught by people how to grade. I continue to learn. There are dealers/collectors that frankly if people learned from would vastly improve their grading skills.

 

My discussions to CBCA were that courses be given by PAID instructors. Course materials written, books graded, feedback etc. Unless someone is totally full of themselves and think they are "unteachable" I thought it would be something very positive for the hobby. Imagine going to a convention for a "grading refresher course".

 

We are taught in almost all areas of our life. What makes the comic hobby any different?

 

Buying a table at a show and having a sign automatically makes people I know what I'm doing? Really folks? Did anybody ever ask a seller who taught them how to grade before they bought something?

 

But there's still going to be some variances within the standard, which is pretty much the same problem you're citing too now.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that you are using the word "standard" and I'm just pointing out that even doing what you're suggesting won't create some universal standard because not everyone, or even most everyone, is going to accept it -- unless it becomes pervasive as "the" standard. Frankly, i think that's already set by Overstreet despite what you point as contradictions within the grading guide.

 

The idea in and of itself is a good one. The problem is, how many people would go? How many folks could you generate to make it worth while?

 

The idea to me isn't all that hard to put on. Get a room at a major show. In three installments have a panel of 3 guys get together and put on a seminar (they did this I believe with restoration a few years back) about grading books. $20 for the hour. Put together a "take away". Put a power point together for the presentation.

 

I'm just not sure how many people would come because many people already just assume they know how to grade.

[nearmint]

I don't necessarily agree with Pat. Back in those days, reading the boards could be a very frustrating experience. .

 

You think you had it bad, it was 10x more frustrating for those on the side of honesty and disclosure.

 

That's more like it!

 

Thought you'd like that :thumbsup:

 

Except that I've always been for both, so it would be nice if you didn't infer otherwise.

[blazingbob]

This is not a job for one person. It would/should be done by a group.

[nearmint]

What I've realized though is that, instead of anyone caring about whether a book has been pressed, all that discussion did is create more pressers.

 

I can't tell you how many times I said exactly that. "Wouldn't it be ironic if all this discussion accomplished was to make the practice of pressing more widespread..."

[Green]

Definitely Bob. I was actually lumping both together. More people sending books to get pressed and more people, who shouldn't be pressing, are pressing their own books.

wth does that even mean.

[comicwiz]

As you suggested, there's no money in it, so lacking that you'd need someone with a passion for grading and a motivation to work towards establishing a standard

 

I think that we've gotten to the point where esteem, seasoned experience and hobby clout have all taken a back seat to blue label acceptance.

 

For example, practices like staple replacement which I have always felt requires disclosure, would be contested simply on the grounds of CGC's evidence-based position on detecting this kind of work.

 

If I or anyone sharing this opinion on staple replacement were invited to such a workshop or roundtable effort to establish grading standards, to me, staple replacement is a pretty straightforward call when it comes to active disclosure on work being performed on a book, however I'm pretty certain there would be disagreement over whether this type of work requires active disclosure.

 

There will be a host of other variances on what people deem "acceptable" - and ultimately, as long as the work continues to push the blue label standard, the street will continue to endorse it as acceptable regardless of the hobby voices that contest it.

[sterlingcomics]

Fine, I'll jump on the grenade, what the fudge are you guys talking about?

 

 

Just search for NOD. There are a thousand threads.

 

Not anymore. History has been erased. It only lives in your mind now.

[Transplant]

Definitely Bob. I was actually lumping both together. More people sending books to get pressed and more people, who shouldn't be pressing, are pressing their own books.

wth does that even mean.

It means, every yokel who thinks that just because they bought a dry mount press off Ebay, that they know how to press every book from every age. The prosecution cites Hooks' waffle press crushing as Exhibit #1.

[blazingbob]

You are echoing back what I already proposed to Steve at CBCA.

 

Of course some of the people I reached out to felt it should be free. I disagreed.

 

I'm a believer in you get what you pay for.

 

How many people would go? Can't answer that.

 

I'm at a lot of conventions. amazing how many people who admit they can't grade.

 

I was also thinking that if you were a instructor or took the course(s) you could get certified. Maybe it would help your business since I would at least see you "attempted" to learn how to grade and spot restoration. Now does this have "issues". Of course it does but its better than what we have at shows today.

 

I have had some lengthy discussions about this. This is not something that is just popping in my head for this thread.

 

As far as many people thinking they know how to grade I would disagree with that. Why else am I asked my opinion on what CGC might grade this? Emails asking me to grade and pick out the books to send to CGC for grading.

 

Am I expecting to fix the hobby overnight. No, I am seeking to change it for the better going forward.

 

 

[VintageComics]

Fine, I'll jump on the grenade, what the fudge are you guys talking about?

 

 

Just search for NOD. There are a thousand threads.

 

Not anymore. History has been erased. It only lives in your mind now.

 

You can't search a 3 letter word. Only 4 letter words. Still should find you all the NOD threads though.

 

[nearmint]

Fine, I'll jump on the grenade, what the fudge are you guys talking about?

 

 

Just search for NOD. There are a thousand threads.

 

Not anymore. History has been erased. It only lives in your mind now.

 

You can't search a 3 letter word. Only 4 letter words. Still should find you all the NOD threads though.

 

 

He's actually right. I searched for "Network of Disclosure" and came up with 4 pages of posts, but the oldest was from last month.

 

Pretty sure he's wrong about them only living on in my mind, though.

[VintageComics]

Fine, I'll jump on the grenade, what the fudge are you guys talking about?

 

 

Just search for NOD. There are a thousand threads.

 

Not anymore. History has been erased. It only lives in your mind now.

 

You can't search a 3 letter word. Only 4 letter words. Still should find you all the NOD threads though.

 

 

He's actually right. I searched for "Network of Disclosure" and came up with 4 pages of posts, but the oldest was from last month.

 

Pretty sure he's wrong about them only living on in my mind, though.

 

I just did a search from a few years ago and found the Official NOD Q and A thread.

 

They're out there for the most part. People just don't use the search function properly.

 

[VintageComics]

How to use the search function.

 

I've already sent a message to Gemma asking her to update the info to include the new rules regarding the 2 year time window.

 

You can search in 2 year windows - just set the "Newer than" and "Older than" time frame to no more than a 2 year window.

 

 

[nearmint]

Fine, I'll jump on the grenade, what the fudge are you guys talking about?

 

 

Just search for NOD. There are a thousand threads.

 

Not anymore. History has been erased. It only lives in your mind now.

 

You can't search a 3 letter word. Only 4 letter words. Still should find you all the NOD threads though.

 

 

He's actually right. I searched for "Network of Disclosure" and came up with 4 pages of posts, but the oldest was from last month.

 

Pretty sure he's wrong about them only living on in my mind, though.

 

I just did a search from a few years ago and found the Official NOD Q and A thread.

 

They're out there for the most part. People just don't use the search function properly.

 

 

Including me, I guess. I searched older than two days ago for "Network of Disclosure" in title or body of posts.