Me, the NOD, and regret.

[seanfingh]

 

I certainly think past CGC employees should be invited, they would be a most valuable resource.

 

Sorry for not picking up the color Sharon. I would be very surprised if they are not covered by a confidentiality and nondisclosure agreement.

 

The main issue is that CGC likely believes that their methods of grading are proprietary trade secrets.

[Spiderphill]

 

I certainly think past CGC employees should be invited, they would be a most valuable resource.

 

Sorry for not picking up the color Sharon. I would be very surprised if they are not covered by a confidentiality and nondisclosure agreement.

 

The main issue is that CGC likely believes that their methods of grading are proprietary trade secrets.

We might figure out who the collector is with all the pressed books that made sure they didn't deem pressing as restoration,

[sacentaur]

The main issue is that CGC likely believes that their methods of grading are proprietary trade secrets.

 

As inconsistent as CGC has been of late, perhaps they need to redefine (or at least refocus on) those trade secrets.

[fantastic_four]

We might figure out who the collector is with all the pressed books that made sure they didn't deem pressing as restoration,

 

Hindsight is 20/20. If you were Steve Borock, how would you have defined CGC's stance towards pressing given that it isn't even detectable?

[skypinkblu]

 

I certainly think past CGC employees should be invited, they would be a most valuable resource.

 

Sorry for not picking up the color Sharon. I would be very surprised if they are not covered by a confidentiality and nondisclosure agreement.

 

The main issue is that CGC likely believes that their methods of grading are proprietary trade secrets.

 

I realize that Sean, ..but sometimes those agreements only last a set period of time.

[Dale Roberts]

We might figure out who the collector is with all the pressed books that made sure they didn't deem pressing as restoration,

 

Hindsight is 20/20. If you were Steve Borock, how would you have defined CGC's stance towards pressing given that it isn't even detectable?

 

 

No, the main issue is that CGC is a business. A profit seeking business. And a current, a virtual monopoly. However, if they release all the details of their grading standards, especially in written form, it would be extremely simple for someone else to duplicate, or even improve upon their "product". From a business standpoint, it makes perfect sense. In fact, it is the ONLY option they have.

[fantastic_four]

We might figure out who the collector is with all the pressed books that made sure they didn't deem pressing as restoration,

 

Hindsight is 20/20. If you were Steve Borock, how would you have defined CGC's stance towards pressing given that it isn't even detectable?

 

 

No, the main issue is that CGC is a business. A profit seeking business. And a current, a virtual monopoly. However, if they release all the details of their grading standards, especially in written form, it would be extremely simple for someone else to duplicate, or even improve upon their "product". From a business standpoint, it makes perfect sense. In fact, it is the ONLY option they have.

 

If the CBCA were to undertake what Bob is suggesting and did choose to use CGC's standards as their starting point, I don't see that CGC's cooperation is necessary. It'd be useful, but not necessary.

[ComicConnoisseur]

So would it be fair to say that the entire argument boils down to disclosure?

 

This topic has been ongoing and will continue simply because some feel pressing is Resto and some don't. Those who don't consider it Resto don't care if it's disclosed because they would buy and sell the book pressed or not. Those who do consider it Resto want it disclosed because they don't want to buy or sell a pressed book.

 

It becomes an argument of semantics about what restoration actually encompasses. Simply because you feel one way or another does not strengthen your argument.

 

Always follow the money. If CGC could magically start detecting pressing and giving those books PLODs then the pressing sect would simply not submit their books or sell in circles where CGC isn't the end all be all.

 

I think it's unreasonable to question someone's integrity or label them as dishonest if they participate in a practice that is acceptable to an equal part of the collecting community.

 

 

 

 

Hi.. My names Pat. I won't be vague at ALL.

 

Pressing, if you believe it to be restoration or not means it is a matter of disclosing known "work" done to a book.

 

This community is much smaller than the comic collecting community, and THAT means that it is NOT the acceptable to an equal part of the collecting community.

 

How many times should a book be pressed? At what point is it bad for a book to continue to be pressed? Why do I NOT have the right to know what was done before I make a purchase?

 

And I have always said that leaving out information is basically being dishonest. Don't agree, thats fine. But if I ask and you lie I will flame the seller publicly whenever I want.

 

And to move past even that. Some people have their head so far up major dealers azzes or are so busy sucking up to them, that they actually give them passes for the same things that you would burn an ebay dealer at the stake for.

 

There is alot more to these discussions than just pressing, and we are really losing sight as to what is and is not acceptable behavior in this hobby.

Well said! (thumbs u

I call them the good ol boys network.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

We might figure out who the collector is with all the pressed books that made sure they didn't deem pressing as restoration,

 

Hindsight is 20/20. If you were Steve Borock, how would you have defined CGC's stance towards pressing given that it isn't even detectable?

 

 

No, the main issue is that CGC is a business. A profit seeking business. And a current, a virtual monopoly. However, if they release all the details of their grading standards, especially in written form, it would be extremely simple for someone else to duplicate, or even improve upon their "product". From a business standpoint, it makes perfect sense. In fact, it is the ONLY option they have.

 

If the CBCA were to undertake what Bob is suggesting and did choose to use CGC's standards as their starting point, I don't see that CGC's cooperation is necessary. It'd be useful, but not necessary.

I could name maybe 10 people who could break out cgc's grading without cgc. There are people who KNOW what CGC will grade books, or be REALLY close.And this is something I would be interested in helping with.

[fantastic_four]

I could name maybe 10 people who could break out cgc's grading without cgc. There are people who KNOW what CGC will grade books, or be REALLY close.And this is something I would be interested in helping with.

 

Lots of people would--I would as well.

 

Back when I was far more passionate about grading, the ideal format that occurred to me is something like a grading wiki, i.e. something anyone could freely contribute to.

[Dale Roberts]

I could name maybe 10 people who could break out cgc's grading without cgc. There are people who KNOW what CGC will grade books, or be REALLY close.And this is something I would be interested in helping with.

 

Lots of people would--I would as well.

 

Back when I was far more passionate about grading, the ideal format that occurred to me is something like a grading wiki, i.e. something anyone could freely contribute to.

 

I think alot of people could do this, and would like to be involved, but there is still the problem of making it the accepted standard of the hobby.

[fantastic_four]

I could name maybe 10 people who could break out cgc's grading without cgc. There are people who KNOW what CGC will grade books, or be REALLY close.And this is something I would be interested in helping with.

 

Lots of people would--I would as well.

 

Back when I was far more passionate about grading, the ideal format that occurred to me is something like a grading wiki, i.e. something anyone could freely contribute to.

 

I think alot of people could do this, and would like to be involved, but there is still the problem of making it the accepted standard of the hobby.

 

That requires getting people whose opinions on grading are already trusted to agree that it's a good idea and to help endorse it--Borock, Overstreet, Haspel, Litch, etc. It's possible CGC would see it as a threat and that therefore Haspel and Litch would never be able to endorse such a project, but I hope not.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

I could name maybe 10 people who could break out cgc's grading without cgc. There are people who KNOW what CGC will grade books, or be REALLY close.And this is something I would be interested in helping with.

 

Lots of people would--I would as well.

 

Back when I was far more passionate about grading, the ideal format that occurred to me is something like a grading wiki, i.e. something anyone could freely contribute to.

 

I think alot of people could do this, and would like to be involved, but there is still the problem of making it the accepted standard of the hobby.

Well, you would have to do the following.

 

Step.1 - Create this grading criteria.

Step. 2 - Find others who use it primarily.

Step 3. - Once it is used by enough people it BECOMES the standard.

 

We can do it Dale. And honestly some of us are VERY tight graders. It would likely be a benefit to guys like you and Bob as people would be very pleased at getting books that they believe are undergraded.

[sacentaur]

It would likely be a benefit to guys like you and Bob as people would be very pleased at getting books that they believe are undergraded.

 

I was talking with an old-time paperback book dealer yesterday, and he knew most of the Los Angeles-based comic collectors and dealers way back in the day.

 

He and an associate said that Leonard Brown - of the famous Collectors Book Store in Hollywood - was intentionally undergrading their comic books by a half-a-grade in order to increase customer satisfaction, encourage repeat buyers, generate good word-of-mouth, and not have to deal with the hassles of returns.

 

It was a different time back then true, but I wonder if such a business model would work today.

[Foolkiller]

It would likely be a benefit to guys like you and Bob as people would be very pleased at getting books that they believe are undergraded.

 

I was talking with an old-time paperback book dealer yesterday, and he knew most of the Los Angeles-based comic collectors and dealers way back in the day.

 

He and an associate said that Leonard Brown - of the famous Collectors Book Store in Hollywood - was intentionally undergrading their comic books by a half-a-grade in order to increase customer satisfaction, encourage repeat buyers, generate good word-of-mouth, and not have to deal with the hassles of returns.

 

It was a different time back then true, but I wonder if such a business model would work today.

 

I think there are guys who do that. Nick Beckett here on the boards and a few others I've found are definitely under graders -- on the whole.

[Silver Surfer]

It would likely be a benefit to guys like you and Bob as people would be very pleased at getting books that they believe are undergraded.

 

I was talking with an old-time paperback book dealer yesterday, and he knew most of the Los Angeles-based comic collectors and dealers way back in the day.

 

He and an associate said that Leonard Brown - of the famous Collectors Book Store in Hollywood - was intentionally undergrading their comic books by a half-a-grade in order to increase customer satisfaction, encourage repeat buyers, generate good word-of-mouth, and not have to deal with the hassles of returns.

 

It was a different time back then true, but I wonder if such a business model would work today.

 

Just off the top of my head Comiccana is one dealer that consistently takes this kind of approach. I'm sure there are a few other but Nick is really one of the best when it comes to putting the client first.

[sacentaur]

I should mention that he also noted that the vast majority of older comic books that they were dealing with back in the day would be considered mid-grade by today's standards, long before uber-high grade manipulation became rampant or even pre-pedigree collection discoveries.

 

Today, a fraction of a point can make a big money difference on the top condition books.

[blazingbob]

Jim Payette said the same thing to me.

 

He undergraded in order to limit the hassles of dealing with returns. But Jim did not undergrade high grade stuff. He was always a very tight grader and frankly if you saw his grades on stuff at Sotheby's you tended to agree. At least Jim takes the book out of the mylar unlike some other NE dealers I know.

[VintageComics]

But Jim did not undergrade high grade stuff.

 

While I respect Comicana / Nick's tight grading as well as Payette's, Bob's and everyone else whose grading I trust without question, this rings true.

 

You will rarely find a dealer under grading their inventory if they are going to leave large $ on the table. It defeats the entire purpose they are in business.

 

The purpose of grading a comic accurately is to find a fair price point for the quality of product, and eventually, someone will come across and disagree with someone on grading.

 

Regardless of how many rules you write out, grading is ultimately subjective to a small degree. You can write rules about the big stuff (like Overstreet did) but when it comes to real life, there is going to be a grey area.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rockman2008]

But Jim did not undergrade high grade stuff.

You will rarely find a dealer under grading their inventory if they are going to leave large $ on the table. It defeats the entire purpose they are in business.

 

How about Gary Dolgoff? Didn't he have a slogan? "I am a buyer's best friend", "I am man's best friend", or some such.