Me, the NOD, and regret.

[fantastic_four]

This is not a job for one person. It would/should be done by a group.

 

I agree that's a superior approach.

[fantastic_four]

As you suggested, there's no money in it, so lacking that you'd need someone with a passion for grading and a motivation to work towards establishing a standard

 

I think that we've gotten to the point where esteem, seasoned experience and hobby clout have all taken a back seat to blue label acceptance.

 

For example, practices like staple replacement which I have always felt requires disclosure, would be contested simply on the grounds of CGC's evidence-based position on detecting this kind of work.

 

If I or anyone sharing this opinion on staple replacement were invited to such a workshop or roundtable effort to establish grading standards, to me, staple replacement is a pretty straightforward call when it comes to active disclosure on work being performed on a book, however I'm pretty certain there would be disagreement over whether this type of work requires active disclosure.

 

There will be a host of other variances on what people deem "acceptable" - and ultimately, as long as the work continues to push the blue label standard, the street will continue to endorse it as acceptable regardless of the hobby voices that contest it.

 

I believe what you're saying is that any standard which deviate's from CGC's standards won't be accepted. I'm fine with that--the CBCA could then just work to reverse-engineer and document that standard, something Overstreet either tried to do himself or perhaps even with CGC's assistance in his update to his Grading Guide released after CGC started. If they were able to get some cooperation from Borock, Haspel, and/or Litch, this is eminently possible, but even without their direct assistance it is achievable. I disagree with a few of CGC's standards, but not many--for the most part they seem entirely reasonable, and I'm fine with accepting those few points of disagreement in deference to the higher goal of an accepted standard. In your example of staple replacement, CGC denotes that with the green label when they do detect it, don't they?

[mikenyc]

So would it be fair to say that the entire argument boils down to disclosure?

 

This topic has been ongoing and will continue simply because some feel pressing is Resto and some don't. Those who don't consider it Resto don't care if it's disclosed because they would buy and sell the book pressed or not. Those who do consider it Resto want it disclosed because they don't want to buy or sell a pressed book.

 

It becomes an argument of semantics about what restoration actually encompasses. Simply because you feel one way or another does not strengthen your argument.

 

Always follow the money. If CGC could magically start detecting pressing and giving those books PLODs then the pressing sect would simply not submit their books or sell in circles where CGC isn't the end all be all.

 

I think it's unreasonable to question someone's integrity or label them as dishonest if they participate in a practice that is acceptable to an equal part of the collecting community.

 

 

 

 

[chrisco37]

In your example of staple replacement, CGC denotes that with the green label when they do detect it, don't they?

 

Not all the time. If a book gets staples replaced with "vintage" staples (i guess this means staples from roughly the same time period), the book can get a blue label (and no mention of replacement).

[seanfingh]

So would it be fair to say that the entire argument boils down to disclosure?

 

This topic has been ongoing and will continue simply because some feel pressing is Resto and some don't. Those who don't consider it Resto don't care if it's disclosed because they would buy and sell the book pressed or not. Those who do consider it Resto want it disclosed because they don't want to buy or sell a pressed book.

 

It becomes an argument of semantics about what restoration actually encompasses. Simply because you feel one way or another does not strengthen your argument.

 

Always follow the money. If CGC could magically start detecting pressing and giving those books PLODs then the pressing sect would simply not submit their books or sell in circles where CGC isn't the end all be all.

 

I think it's unreasonable to question someone's integrity or label them as dishonest if they participate in a practice that is acceptable to an equal part of the collecting community.

 

 

 

 

Welcome to 2007!

[blazingbob]

I am also not asking for a "New" standard. I would like the Overstreet/CGC standard taught to people by paid teachers/advisors.

 

I saw this as a business. Training courses done at conventions. Certified teachers in each state where a person could make an appointment and come over and be taught for a fee. Consider it "supplemental" income.

 

I thought it had a lot of potential if thought through. Naturally there would be bumps along the way but this is not rocket science as far as training courses go.

 

[fantastic_four]

In your example of staple replacement, CGC denotes that with the green label when they do detect it, don't they?

 

Not all the time. If a book gets staples replaced with "vintage" staples (i guess this means staples from roughly the same time period), the book can get a blue label (and no mention of replacement).

 

Whether you agree with that stance or not, it's not enough of an issue to chuck the whole idea of a standard out the window just because it's a controversial call.

[Green]

Definitely Bob. I was actually lumping both together. More people sending books to get pressed and more people, who shouldn't be pressing, are pressing their own books.

wth does that even mean.

It means, every yokel who thinks that just because they bought a dry mount press off Ebay, that they know how to press every book from every age. The prosecution cites Hooks' waffle press crushing as Exhibit #1.

As with every skilled trade, everyone is a yokel to begin with.

[fantastic_four]

Definitely Bob. I was actually lumping both together. More people sending books to get pressed and more people, who shouldn't be pressing, are pressing their own books.

wth does that even mean.

It means, every yokel who thinks that just because they bought a dry mount press off Ebay, that they know how to press every book from every age. The prosecution cites Hooks' waffle press crushing as Exhibit #1.

As with every skilled trade, everyone is a yokel to begin with.

 

Which was exactly his point.

[Davenport]

Early on, pre-NOD, I remember discussions where The American Philatelic Society was one possible model. (club for stamp enthusiasts that shows 34,000 members worldwide.)

 

But that was beyond naive and a quick stroll through their 'code of conduct' shows just how much. And why it could never work for comics...

 

"I agree not knowingly to sell, trade, produce, or advertise repaired, reperforated, regummed, altered, or otherwise modified philatelic items unless that condition is clearly stated."

 

That alone is enough to pizz off a lot of prominent folks making a lot of spectacular money. And if that's not naive enough, try this one:

 

"I agree not knowingly to participate in any way in the advertisement, sale or trade of any philatelic material using any deceptive practices including, but not limited to, false or misleading claims of sales scarcity, value, condition or investment potential."

 

So no one's to blame. I think comic books are a unique paper-collectible that's extremely prone to manipulation and deceptive practices. Encapsulation imported the "Crack Out Game", a clarion call for any paper-mechanic to give it a shot, and the hobby evolved to support it.

 

My guess is the 'era of the paper-mechanic' will continue until some new generation decides to re-examine what fandom did in it's heyday. Probably when comics age enough to be considered antiques.

 

 

 

 

 

[Logan510]

So would it be fair to say that the entire argument boils down to disclosure?

 

This topic has been ongoing and will continue simply because some feel pressing is Resto and some don't. Those who don't consider it Resto don't care if it's disclosed because they would buy and sell the book pressed or not. Those who do consider it Resto want it disclosed because they don't want to buy or sell a pressed book.

 

It becomes an argument of semantics about what restoration actually encompasses. Simply because you feel one way or another does not strengthen your argument.

 

Always follow the money. If CGC could magically start detecting pressing and giving those books PLODs then the pressing sect would simply not submit their books or sell in circles where CGC isn't the end all be all.

 

I think it's unreasonable to question someone's integrity or label them as dishonest if they participate in a practice that is acceptable to an equal part of the collecting community.

 

 

 

 

Welcome to 2007!

 

I'm glad you said it...I can't get away with that kind of snarkiness

[VintageComics]

In your example of staple replacement, CGC denotes that with the green label when they do detect it, don't they?

 

Not all the time. If a book gets staples replaced with "vintage" staples (i guess this means staples from roughly the same time period), the book can get a blue label (and no mention of replacement).

 

Vintage staple replacement has been considered acceptable by Overstreet for decades...I'm copying a recent post on the same subject with a little editing to fit this conversation. I'm not saying I agree with it, but I also want to make sure that we are all on the same page and not talking past each other.

 

Swapping vintage staples on lower grade books actually used to be OK according to Overstreet. It's in the OSPG grading suggestions and was considered acceptable before CGC was even an idea in some CEO's mind.

 

EDIT: just pulled my guide out to read it.

 

It reads "Any staple can be replaced on books up to Fine, but only vintage staples can be used on books from Very Fine to Near Mint. Mint books must have original staples."

[nearmint]

I will say this for NOD. I believe they are directly responsible for the high level of disclosure in the CGC marketplace. It is remarkably common for sellers to disclose pressing in their sales threads.

 

 

[fantastic_four]

My main issue with CGC's standard is the way they appear to only half-downgrade for production defects, particularly Marvel chipping. It makes almost no sense to me, yet I'd still be willing to accept their stance on it in a well-defined, written standard as opposed to not having such a standard available.

[mikenyc]

So would it be fair to say that the entire argument boils down to disclosure?

 

This topic has been ongoing and will continue simply because some feel pressing is Resto and some don't. Those who don't consider it Resto don't care if it's disclosed because they would buy and sell the book pressed or not. Those who do consider it Resto want it disclosed because they don't want to buy or sell a pressed book.

 

It becomes an argument of semantics about what restoration actually encompasses. Simply because you feel one way or another does not strengthen your argument.

 

Always follow the money. If CGC could magically start detecting pressing and giving those books PLODs then the pressing sect would simply not submit their books or sell in circles where CGC isn't the end all be all.

 

I think it's unreasonable to question someone's integrity or label them as dishonest if they participate in a practice that is acceptable to an equal part of the collecting community.

 

 

 

 

Welcome to 2007!

 

I didn't dredge up this rotting, bloated, festering horse. I just simply kicked it.

[Logan510]

I will say this for NOD. I believe they are directly responsible for the high level of disclosure in the CGC marketplace. It is remarkably common for sellers to disclose pressing in their sales threads.

 

 

It's such a small world though. The vast majority of comicbook collectors have no idea pressing even exists.

[mikenyc]

So would it be fair to say that the entire argument boils down to disclosure?

 

This topic has been ongoing and will continue simply because some feel pressing is Resto and some don't. Those who don't consider it Resto don't care if it's disclosed because they would buy and sell the book pressed or not. Those who do consider it Resto want it disclosed because they don't want to buy or sell a pressed book.

 

It becomes an argument of semantics about what restoration actually encompasses. Simply because you feel one way or another does not strengthen your argument.

 

Always follow the money. If CGC could magically start detecting pressing and giving those books PLODs then the pressing sect would simply not submit their books or sell in circles where CGC isn't the end all be all.

 

I think it's unreasonable to question someone's integrity or label them as dishonest if they participate in a practice that is acceptable to an equal part of the collecting community.

 

 

 

 

Welcome to 2007!

 

I'm glad you said it...I can't get away with that kind of snarkiness

 

I thought you only posted graemlins, oh wait that's not you. I get so easily confused.

[seanfingh]

So would it be fair to say that the entire argument boils down to disclosure?

 

This topic has been ongoing and will continue simply because some feel pressing is Resto and some don't. Those who don't consider it Resto don't care if it's disclosed because they would buy and sell the book pressed or not. Those who do consider it Resto want it disclosed because they don't want to buy or sell a pressed book.

 

It becomes an argument of semantics about what restoration actually encompasses. Simply because you feel one way or another does not strengthen your argument.

 

Always follow the money. If CGC could magically start detecting pressing and giving those books PLODs then the pressing sect would simply not submit their books or sell in circles where CGC isn't the end all be all.

 

I think it's unreasonable to question someone's integrity or label them as dishonest if they participate in a practice that is acceptable to an equal part of the collecting community.

 

 

 

 

Welcome to 2007!

 

I didn't dredge up this rotting, bloated, festering horse. I just simply kicked it.

 

Pat, look what he said about your retrospective.

[Logan510]

So would it be fair to say that the entire argument boils down to disclosure?

 

This topic has been ongoing and will continue simply because some feel pressing is Resto and some don't. Those who don't consider it Resto don't care if it's disclosed because they would buy and sell the book pressed or not. Those who do consider it Resto want it disclosed because they don't want to buy or sell a pressed book.

 

It becomes an argument of semantics about what restoration actually encompasses. Simply because you feel one way or another does not strengthen your argument.

 

Always follow the money. If CGC could magically start detecting pressing and giving those books PLODs then the pressing sect would simply not submit their books or sell in circles where CGC isn't the end all be all.

 

I think it's unreasonable to question someone's integrity or label them as dishonest if they participate in a practice that is acceptable to an equal part of the collecting community.

 

 

 

 

Welcome to 2007!

 

I'm glad you said it...I can't get away with that kind of snarkiness

 

I thought you only posted graemlins, oh wait that's not you. I get so easily confused.

 

If I was one of those guys, I'd easily have over 10,000 posts by now.

[Dr. Balls]

So would it be fair to say that the entire argument boils down to disclosure?

 

This topic has been ongoing and will continue simply because some feel pressing is Resto and some don't. Those who don't consider it Resto don't care if it's disclosed because they would buy and sell the book pressed or not. Those who do consider it Resto want it disclosed because they don't want to buy or sell a pressed book.

 

It becomes an argument of semantics about what restoration actually encompasses. Simply because you feel one way or another does not strengthen your argument.

 

Always follow the money. If CGC could magically start detecting pressing and giving those books PLODs then the pressing sect would simply not submit their books or sell in circles where CGC isn't the end all be all.

 

I think it's unreasonable to question someone's integrity or label them as dishonest if they participate in a practice that is acceptable to an equal part of the collecting community.

 

 

 

 

Welcome to 2007!

 

I didn't dredge up this rotting, bloated, festering horse. I just simply kicked it.

 

The only difference I've been able to ascertain between 2007 and 2012 is that there used to be a club for people who wanted disclosure of pressing, and now there isn't. Perhaps there wasn't enough perks? No self-respecting club can generate membership without a really cool t-shirt and laminated ID badge.