Suggestions for a hypothetical Overstreet Grading Guide, Super-Deluxe Edition

[Zanarkand]

Idea from another thread. We all know and love the OGG, right? We also knew and loved the 1992 edition, and recognize what a vast improvement the new edition is over the old.

 

So, suppose Gemstone was planning on an all new, all improved edition, and suppose they asked us for suggestions. What would we like to see?

 

Me, I'd like a larger format, something oversized and binder-ish. The price guide has a version like that.

 

Also, I don't know about you guys, but when I grade a book I don't hold it several feet away. I'm up in its face. Some close-up shots of particular defects would be very helpful, so we can see exactly what they mean by a light crease vs a moderate crease, or what a maverick staple looks like. A rogues gallery of defects.

 

Lastly, I always have a hard time figuring out what defects are allowed in what grade. I have certain dealbreaker defects that automatically imply a grade (i.e. cover detached at one staple means no higher than G/VG to me, a rusty staple means VG+ max, moisture wrinkling means FN at the most, etc). The OGG clearly implies this with their defect list for each grade, but also violates it all over the place. That sort of ambiguity is what makes it hard to grade.

[flink]

Idea from another thread. We all know and love the OGG, right? We also knew and loved the 1992 edition, and recognize what a vast improvement the new edition is over the old.

 

So, suppose Gemstone was planning on an all new, all improved edition, and suppose they asked us for suggestions. What would we like to see?

 

Me, I'd like a larger format, something oversized and binder-ish. The price guide has a version like that.

 

Excellent idea! A binder issue that you can add updates to. My OGG was falling apart and it's less than a year old so I ripped it apart and put the actual grading section in a binder.

 

Also, I don't know about you guys, but when I grade a book I don't hold it several feet away. I'm up in its face. Some close-up shots of particular defects would be very helpful, so we can see exactly what they mean by a light crease vs a moderate crease, or what a maverick staple looks like. A rogues gallery of defects.

 

An actual size side by side comparison of defect degrees.

 

Lastly, I always have a hard time figuring out what defects are allowed in what grade. I have certain dealbreaker defects that automatically imply a grade (i.e. cover detached at one staple means no higher than G/VG to me, a rusty staple means VG+ max, moisture wrinkling means FN at the most, etc). The OGG clearly implies this with their defect list for each grade, but also violates it all over the place. That sort of ambiguity is what makes it hard to grade.

 

I agree, this is the hardest thing to figure out; I tend to go with the written guide to be on the safe side but it's confusing.

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

"Me, I'd like a larger format, something oversized and binder-ish. The price guide has a version like that."

 

Doubt it, but OK, we'll keep it in mind.

 

"Some close-up shots of particular defects would be very helpful."

 

Definitely something to address in the next one, absolutely.

 

"I always have a hard time figuring out what defects are allowed in what grade."

 

We'll see about this too.

 

Arnold

[codfish]

Personally i like the size format now.

 

What I would like to see:

 

1. no inked marking allowed above 8.0.

 

2. a complete different approach to the treatment of restoration.

 

as far as i am concerned a book that has uncertified "restoration" should be considered as repaired and each "repair" treated as a defect and graded down from the "appears" grading.

 

3. no more "apparent grades" if a book is professionallyh restored and has it's certification of what work was done then it have a "Restored ". Apparent insinuates that it is not the grade it appears and if is not then it should have a clear honest grade. using "Restored VF" tells me that it it WAS a lower grade and grades out as a VF now. The "restored" tells me to deduct from the value of a VF by the degree of modification (ie. if a book is $5000 in VF and the book is a Restored VF with modification 5 (excessive) X% would be subtracted from that total. or something along those lines."

 

apparent grades are confusing and the current lack of clear restoration standards is confusing. matt nelson suggested a restoration scale but it multilayered. it should be clear with lotsd of information for regular users to make restoration detection and determine, clearly, where their book would lie in the point scale.

 

one of the problems the 10 point scale added was that it widened the high grade range and now far too many books fall in vf to nm that never used to. ink marks were not previously allowed tears or foxing or blunted corners. there are lots of examples in the OGG where nm books already stray well outside the "allowable" range of defects for the grade. It should be mentioned that a book, in whatever grade, is allowed to have all, all half, or a few of the defects listed in the allowable defect section that preceeds each section. As far as i am concerned that list is what is allow and if a book has all to 50% of those defects it should then be in that grade and any additonal defect not allowed in that grade decrease the grade (potentially).

 

things still need to be clarified. there are so many books out there that are over or undergraded because one or two certain defects are present. i constantly see cgc book that are over graded and the odd one that is undergraded. So much so that i believe it only adds to the confusion some people have when they grade.

 

with no clear path your followers can get lost.

 

EDIT: oh and much more mention consideration and photos of insides of books and the grading of them. the way everything is set up in the guides you would think that contents is secondary. people always aske here to grade there books and all you are ever given are a third of the book to consider. defect on the inside are as important as the outside. for example, what good to me is a nm copy of action #1 that has no superman story? i even consider a book worthless if it has a coupon cut or an add age missing .... even if the book was high grade otherwise.

 

just some thoughts

[Zanarkand]

"Me, I'd like a larger format, something oversized and binder-ish. The price guide has a version like that."

 

Doubt it, but OK, we'll keep it in mind.

 

"Some close-up shots of particular defects would be very helpful."

 

Definitely something to address in the next one, absolutely.

 

"I always have a hard time figuring out what defects are allowed in what grade."

 

We'll see about this too.

 

Arnold

 

Thanks Arnold! I'm just blueskying here, don't take me too seriously.

[Zanarkand]

one of the problems the 10 point scale added was that it widened the high grade range and now far too many books fall in vf to nm that never used to. ink marks were not previously allowed tears or foxing or blunted corners. there are lots of examples in the OGG where nm books already stray well outside the "allowable" range of defects for the grade. It should be mentioned that a book, in whatever grade, is allowed to have all, all half, or a few of the defects listed in the allowable defect section that preceeds each section. As far as i am concerned that list is what is allow and if a book has all to 50% of those defects it should then be in that grade and any additonal defect not allowed in that grade decrease the grade (potentially).

 

I have toyed with the idea of working out a grading calculator, based on examples from both OGGs, and maybe CGC too. That would be the only real way to pin down grading. I know that grading will never be 100% objective, but too often "grading is subjective!" is a defensive cry from sellers trying to pass off VF books as NM, not a true difference of opinion.

 

The OGG has a couple of cool features in front of the grading section. One is a little chart that relates ambiguous terms like "minor", "small/small amount", "moderate", etc to actual measurements and amounts. Very helpful. A lot of sellers use terms like "tiny" just to attempt to minimize a defect in your mind when the defect is actually not tiny at all. It's good to know that in grading, these terms are not actually subjective at all, they actually imply a size of distinct number. The only improvement would be to wrap that into the grade descriptions. Rather than saying "a small amount of minor stress marks" are allowed, say "1 - 3 stress marks no larger than 1/16" are allowed".

 

They also have a graph that gives a idea how many defects, total, are allowed in a grade. This is a good way to tell how all the little things add up. You could have 6 minor defects, any one of which is allowed in NM, but the graph says 6 is too many total for the grade. Handy. That could be blended into the grade descriptions too, so that it could say "this grade is allowed to have 4 - 6 defects from the following list", and then list allowable defects and their maximum size/length.

[FFB]

"Me, I'd like a larger format, something oversized and binder-ish. The price guide has a version like that."

 

Doubt it, but OK, we'll keep it in mind.

 

 

Arnold

 

Good to see your input, Arnold. I am not sure what reservations you have about doing a full-sized binder format (I am guessing that you guys don't know how well it would sell), but I would definitely buy a large-sized, deluxe grading guide in a binder format and I'd be willing to spend a good bit more for it than the regular guide. I can't speak for anyone else, but I would guess that it would be pretty popular in that format because of the added utility that larger pictures (and a more detailed discussion of various defects) would give.

[jimm94]

I've mentioned it in a thread about the OGG before, but also count me in as someone who would gladly pay more $$$ for a full-size spiral bound edition.

[Zanarkand]

I've mentioned it in a thread about the OGG before, but also count me in as someone who would gladly pay more $$$ for a full-size spiral bound edition.

 

Oh, absolutely! I wouldn't have suggested it if I wasn't willing to pay for it. It is already an indispensable tool, and look how much people pay for other tools that they consider indispensable. CBG, GPAnalysis, slabbing, etc.

[codfish]

 

I have toyed with the idea of working out a grading calculator, based on examples from both OGGs, and maybe CGC too. That would be the only real way to pin down grading. I know that grading will never be 100% objective, but too often "grading is subjective!" is a defensive cry from sellers trying to pass off VF books as NM, not a true difference of opinion.

 

The OGG has a couple of cool features in front of the grading section. One is a little chart that relates ambiguous terms like "minor", "small/small amount", "moderate", etc to actual measurements and amounts. Very helpful. A lot of sellers use terms like "tiny" just to attempt to minimize a defect in your mind when the defect is actually not tiny at all. It's good to know that in grading, these terms are not actually subjective at all, they actually imply a size of distinct number. The only improvement would be to wrap that into the grade descriptions. Rather than saying "a small amount of minor stress marks" are allowed, say "1 - 3 stress marks no larger than 1/16" are allowed".

 

They also have a graph that gives a idea how many defects, total, are allowed in a grade. This is a good way to tell how all the little things add up. You could have 6 minor defects, any one of which is allowed in NM, but the graph says 6 is too many total for the grade. Handy. That could be blended into the grade descriptions too, so that it could say "this grade is allowed to have 4 - 6 defects from the following list", and then list allowable defects and their maximum size/length.

 

yeah i noticed those things. but like you say they could be better integrated into the whole grading scheme.

 

i love that allowable defect chart but i knoiw people that have a hard time placing books into the base catagories. for example if you have a book that has all the charateristics of a good book listed is it good or lower? in my judgement it would still be good 2.0 as long as 75 to 100% of the criteria are met. less than 75% then a book would approach 2.5 and more defects than the given base grade allows but within the allowable range would keep it 2.0 outside the allowable range would drop it to 1.8. of course significant defects (such as a tear in a nm book or a otherwise vg book with a 7" spine split) would have much more degrading value.

 

i hope you understand what i am getting at.

 

grading is subjective but lets try and reduce the wiggling room a bit more. the clearer the divisions in the grade the better chance that people become better or more confident graders. less wiggling room would hopefully solve my issues that i have with the widening acceptable ranges for high grade books. as far as i am concerned presstime defects mostly have less degrading value as it is very hard for the collector to prevent this. once in dealer or collector hands the defects cause by these people are preventable and therefore should have much more weight (thus my reasoning that no nm book should allow for ink markings or stamps on the cover regardless of the condition. harsh but it was previously not allowed and i don't see why it should change. of course this devalues alot of larson pedigree books but hell VF is an excellent grade for a golden age book.)

[Zanarkand]

Most books I believe fall into the "main" grades: Mint, NM, VF, FN, VG, GD, Fair, Poor. These categories are fairly well defined, and I think nearly everyone could agree on defects that are and are not allowed in each of those grades. I think it would be relatively easy for anyone, even a novice, to ballpark a grade if we had definitive lists of defects allowed and not allowed in each main grade.

 

The half grades: NM/Mt, VF/NM, F/VF, VG/F, G/VG, Fr/G, Pr/Fr are where you're concerned with not just what defects are present, but also the number/severity of them. I think that the half grades have the lower grade first for a reason. It's not called "Fine to Very Good", right? It's "Very Good to Fine". That says to me that it's a book with VG defects, but few of them and/or of lesser degree. Maybe it has a spine split, but less than 1/2". Maybe a staple has rust, but is not fully rusted. Maybe the centerfold is technically attached at both staples, but is clearly loose. Maybe a VG book can have 10 defects off the "allowable list", but this book only has 4. That sort of thing. This, admittedly, would be harder to get everyone to agree on.

 

The plus and minus grades would just be to indicate range. Sort of like the 100 point scale did in the old OGG, except using number of defects, not points. "Plus" grades could encompass the top 25% of the grade, "Minus" grades the bottom 25%. So if we say that NM can have 1 - 4 defects off the "allowable list", then NM+ would be just 1 and NM- would be 4.

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

It's just highly unlikely that we would do a full color guide in a large binder format as the cost would most probably be prohibitive. But never say never.

 

Arnold

[FFB]

It's just highly unlikely that we would do a full color guide in a large binder format as the cost would most probably be prohibitive. But never say never.

 

Arnold

 

Thanks for the response, Arnold.

 

One suggestion I would make is that you take a survey and see what the reaction would be to a higher priced guide in that format to support the more expensive manufacturing/printing cost. You might be surprised. It would also allow you to sell "updates" as inserts into the binder. For example, if you wanted to release an update pack of 40 or 50 new pages with additional pictures showing treatment of defects that were not addressed in prior pictures -- such as how high a book would score if it had a light subscription crease but no other wear -- or if you wanted to revise a section for the sake of clarity or to address a defect or class of defects not previously mentioned without having to release an entirely new edition. Or if you wanted to include a new article in the beginning of the guide that wasn't included in the prior version. Not to sound too much like a cheeseball marketing guy, but "The options are limitless!"

 

This binder/update format would result in future revenue streams from people who already purchased the binder version, because they would be more likely to plunk down another five or ten bucks for the update pack rather than buy an entirely new edition. (Your margins on the update pack would probably be higher too.) And when you released an entirely new edition of the guide, you could give the buyer the option of purchasing it in the form of a shrinkwrapped set of binder pages rather than as a full set with another binder included. (High margins on this "unbound" new edition as well.) Perhaps you could offer the full revised set with a new binder for $X, and give the buyers who already own the prior binder the option of buying the pages only without the binder for $X minus a couple of bucks. Selling update sets in this way would save on manufacturing/binding costs, although you could still charge the full amount for the update. You could even set up the updates as a regular "subscription" so that the users would get, say, 10 new pages a month for a buck or three. (That's an extra $12 to $36 per year per subscriber, whereas the current guide costs $24 and has lower margins.) For non-subscribers, you could sell the year's worth (or six months' worth -- whatever) of subscription inserts as a collected update at a slight discount.

 

Publishers of legal treatises print a lot of books this way (particularly the ones that are frequently updated -- and they charge for the updates) and it seems to make sense from a profitability standpoint. Although it happened after my time as a D&D geek, role playing game publisher TSR switched its Monster Manual guide from hardbound format to binder format and sold updates quite successfully.

 

It might be worth looking at from the perspective of publishing the grading guide, although I leave it to you to decide whether it makes sense for Gladstone. I know that I, as a buyer of the grading guide, would find a lot more utility in a guide with bigger pictures and regular updates (which I'd happily pay for). Just an idea.

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

Well thought out.

 

I don't mean to downplay your idea, because it definitely has its appeal and does work in other arenas, but the whole binder/loose page update concept, while nice to some people, is generally very unpopular to consumers, very expensive to produce, and for many does not convey the quality and dignity of a properly bound volume expected from such a book. Not that the idea isn't attractive - it surely has some merit - but I think it's safe to say you won't be seeing that anytime in the near future. As close to "never" as we're going to get.

 

But please do keep ideas coming, I want the next Grading Guide to be even better than the last one and address more issues that people want covered.

 

Arnold

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

Oh, and Gladstone can do it if they like, but they're not around anymore .

 

Arnold

[FFB]

Oh, and Gladstone can do it if they like, but they're not around anymore .

 

Arnold

 

Uh, I meant Gemstone. But you knew that!

 

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

[FFB]

Well thought out.

 

I don't mean to downplay your idea, because it definitely has its appeal and does work in other arenas, but the whole binder/loose page update concept, while nice to some people, is generally very unpopular to consumers, very expensive to produce, and for many does not convey the quality and dignity of a properly bound volume expected from such a book. Not that the idea isn't attractive - it surely has some merit - but I think it's safe to say you won't be seeing that anytime in the near future. As close to "never" as we're going to get.

 

But please do keep ideas coming, I want the next Grading Guide to be even better than the last one and address more issues that people want covered.

 

Arnold

 

Let's try this another way:

 

 

Or if not then at least make the pictures bigger, include pictures of back covers of all books (and show interior defects that factored into the grade, even if it makes the guide a bit longer), and include more defects that are not addressed sufficiently in the current guide, like subscription creases. Pretty please.

 

***edit*** apologies to Rob_react for swiping his Ringmaster auction jpg for my joke.

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

Damn you, Ringmaster! Can't...resist...big...swirly...thing...on...hat...

 

COMING SOON:

The all-new Overstreet Grading Guide Looseleaf Binder edition, with 8-1/2 by 11 punched sheets featuring every defect known to Man in full color. Future updates will be sold for the binder, and every update will come with a brand new OWL card and a tiny robot that will help you grade your books *and* balance your checkbook! Look for the all new Looseleaf Binder Edition Overstreet Grading Guide with "Minty," the Gemstone Grading Robot, at a comic shop near you!

 

Must...fight...swirly...thing...

 

Arnold

[FFB]

Damn you, Ringmaster! Can't...resist...big...swirly...thing...on...hat...

 

COMING SOON:

The all-new Overstreet Grading Guide Looseleaf Binder edition, with 8-1/2 by 11 punched sheets featuring every defect known to Man in full color. Future updates will be sold for the binder, and every update will come with a brand new OWL card and a tiny robot that will help you grade your books *and* balance your checkbook! Look for the all new Looseleaf Binder Edition Overstreet Grading Guide with "Minty," the Gemstone Grading Robot, at a comic shop near you!

 

Must...fight...swirly...thing...

 

Arnold

 

Note to self... get a Ringmaster poster for the bedroom at home.