CGC Acquires Classics Inc - Response to your Questions

[Theagenes]

I have a device in my office right now that might be able to detect the chemicals from the release paper. This technology might exist now.

 

Isn't this the set-up for every superhero or villian's origin?

 

 

Bwahahahja!

 

Eeeexcellent.

 

 

 

[arexcrooke]

I have a device in my office right now that might be able to detect the chemicals from the release paper. This technology might exist now.

 

Isn't this the set-up for every superhero or villian's origin?

 

 

Bwahahahja!

 

Eeeexcellent.

 

 

:hail:

[MCMiles]

I have a device in my office right now that might be able to detect the chemicals from the release paper. This technology might exist now.

 

Isn't this the set-up for every superhero or villian's origin?

 

 

Bwahahahja!

 

Eeeexcellent.

 

 

 

You would be a horrible Super-Villain. I don't believe you have a mean streak in your body.

[brendanb438]

Labeling a book pressed. Never going to happen.

As much as I think most people don't care, some people obviously do.

 

The fact is CGC can detect everything but pressing and dry cleaning a reasonably large amount of the time.

They can label a book with the correct publishing info correctly almost every time.

They figure they can grade a book consistently with in their own standards a reasonably large amount of the time.

 

They can not detect pressing consistently in any sort of way at all. Even if suspect, they can't guarantee if the it was a result of a dry mount press last week or storage conditions over the last 50 years that resulted in the characteristics that might demonstrate the book has been pressed.

 

CGC can't guarantee 100% accuracy or consistency on what they do sell, but they definitely can't sell guesses.

 

So yes, even if they know it was pressed down tbe hall, it won't get labeled because, even if only by a fraction, it would put those books at a disadvantage on tbe open market and consumers would not use the service.

 

 

(actually a shared win, as maloney414 brought it up first in this thread)... but this states it perfectly. Identifying pressed books would be a disaster... what CGC (or any good dealer for that matter) has most to offer is consistency and integrity. If you can't label or identify something with consistency, and if it's something that can't be verified by another outside expert, it's actually detrimental to identify it.

 

As for conflict of interest, I'll just say this... who has more conflict of interest than a dealer? I buy the books, I grade them, I do restoration checks, I price them and I sell them. Yet I do not "force" grades (even when I realize I've lost money on the purchase), I've never had anybody question my grading integrity, and I certainly wouldn't sell out long-term reputation for short-term gain (nor would Dale or Bedrock or Gator or Moondog or others that have a long-standing reputation to maintain). Why would CGC risk their reputation any more than would the rest of us? It's a question I don't think I've seen asked.

 

 

 

 

The Bookery.

 

I managed to swing into the store again a couple months ago to grab 4 Strange Tales comics to get signed by Steranko at NYCC. I didn't see you around but hopefully next time I am in I can say hello in person finally.

 

All 4 books priced really competitively compared to eBay and other sales outlets for raw books and all 4 books came back from CGC half a point or a full point higher than what you had them listed at. I personally am not that good at grading SA books that are between 7 to 8.5 in grades so it was refreshing to have an honest local store to buy these from without having to worry about them being overgraded or with undisclosed resto.

 

Now if only you guys have a nice presentable copy of Crime Suspenstories #22 hiding out somewhere in store I would be the happiest customer ever.

[Theagenes]

I have a device in my office right now that might be able to detect the chemicals from the release paper. This technology might exist now.

 

Isn't this the set-up for every superhero or villian's origin?

 

 

Bwahahahja!

 

Eeeexcellent.

 

 

 

You would be a horrible Super-Villain. I don't believe you have a mean streak in your body.

 

Probably true, but the device I'm talking does look a giant Star Trek phaser (completely intentional by the engineers that designed it). So I could at least look the part.

 

 

[mintcollector]

Check your CarFax! Check your ComicFax! Do I need to disclose that my car has been in an accident and the bumper and fender were fixed and re-painted when I sell it?

 

CI/CGC will know exactly what was done to a book that comes through the ringer in their shop with absolutely no need for guessing or "detecting" anything. A buyer deserves to know if a book has been pressed, staples re-tucked, dry-cleaned, etc.,. Therefore, CGC should tell them.

 

But, if CGC includes this information in graders notes it will a) affect the selling price of the book, b) affect Matt's business since sellers would be inclined to use 3rd-party pressing services (costing CI/CGC $) that won't have such associated notes, and c) discourage the 2x/3x/4x/5x submittals of pressed and re-pressed books as the new owner will already know the book has "reached it's potential" (costing CGC $).

 

Frankly, "Is pressing detectable?", "Is pressing restoration?", "Should CGC disclose the work they do on a book?" are all red herrings in this discussion. The bottom line here is that CGC folding CI into their business is a conflict of interest and is giving the big middle finger to the collector in this hobby while padding their bottom line and the bottom line of every other entity that profits from the collector's dollar.

 

Can I just ask everyone to consider how this would ultimately effect the current collector? Think about all of us who bought books (not knowing if they were pressed or not) and then they suddenly put this in the grader's report. Current collectors would LOSE BIG; should the market 'shy' away from pressed books.

 

The only comparison I could even think of using is when coin grading was changed slightly making a GEM mint coin; a(n) MS-63. A lot of money was lost. I would have to get the FULL facts on what happened during this time period, as it was back in the 1980's (I believe?) and I was not into coin collecting at that time (I am only thrity five and born in 1976). That being said, it is never good to hurt your core base who has a vested interest of these items already graded. Just an opinion. I am sure others may agree.

 

Would you sacrifice the value of your collection to adopt this ideology? Interesting question, isn't it? Dealers would also lose, as would 'speculators' and investors. This would cause a massive 'ripple' effect and could actually derail the hobby as a whole. Unfortunately, unlike the 1990's, I don't see it coming back; should this occur.

 

In conclusion this is based on two independent variables:

 

Number one: The core collecting public views 'pressing' as being 'bad.'

 

Number two: They (i.e. CGC) actually include this information on the grading report to begin with.

 

This is a very dangerous 'what if' scenario to speculate on.

 

Respectfully,

 

'mint'

I put in bold the part that seperates a collector from flipper/investor/dealer. Collectors are not concerned with selling, hence "collector".

 

But do you honestly believe that a collector who has amassed a collection worth 'XXXXX' dollars is not going to care? I am sorry, but I must disagree. How many 'investment threads' have been started on these very forums? If you are paying thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars for any collectible, you are doing so because you believe in the market and the probablity that you will one day at the very least, be able to sell it for what you paid for it, if not more.

 

The most common question I get asked in the antiques market is 'Will this item go up in value?'

 

Speculation in the collectibles market is just as rampant as it is on Wall Street. The only difference is we don't have an SEC...or much regulation at all.

 

Respectfully,

 

'mint'

[Bookery]

I'm sure you are right about one thing. They do choose to ignore it more so because it's good for business. Not enough people are against pressing. Many either benefit monetarily (OMG, I said it, expect the anti -pressing brigade to quote that several times), many just don't care and like the benefit of upgrade the books get, and it's a model that allows CGC to grade the same books more than once, which is obviously good for business.

 

It's a catch in the whole process that works for CGC. Pressing can not be detected consistently or accurately. Many folks choose to embrace the practice. It turns out that's good for the bottom line at CGC.

 

I'm not sure about that. I think if CGC could detect pressing with consistency, it would make them a lot more money. A lot of uber-grade collectors don't just want a high-grade... they want the best high-grade. Say you have 2 copies of 'Tec 27 in 9.0. Both collectors will likely want to know if their 9.0 is actually "better" than the other guy's. If it turns out one is pressed and one isn't... voila! We have a certified winner.

 

But more importantly... look at all of the people here on these boards that don't want pressed books in their collection. They would all be sending their already-slabbed books back in to CGC for resubmission to discover which are pressed and which aren't.

 

Since the number of decent un-slabbed golden-age and silver-age candidates for slabbing is obviously a fraction of what it was 10 years ago, CGC, or and 3rd-party grader, is facing an ever-diminishing amount of gradeable books out there. But now, with pressing detection, potentially every book ever slabbed would be a candidate for resubmission. And pressure from the anti-pressing lobby would force dealers to have to submit their existing inventory for the new labels, or face much smaller prices realized on "old label" books.

 

Being able to detect pressing would make many more millions of dollars for CGC... not less.

 

 

[Theagenes]

I just got through reading an article on thee transfer of trace amounts of silicone from release paper liners. The amount would miniscule and would depend on the brand of release paper, but it should be detectable by several methods, including the device I have. I;m really intrigued now and may try it out as soon as get a chance.

[MCMiles]

 

 

But more importantly... look at all of the people here on these boards that don't want pressed books in their collection. They would all be sending their already-slabbed books back in to CGC for resubmission to discover which are pressed and which aren't.

 

 

 

I don't know if that number of people is that significant, and I'm willing to bet a few of those people like to say they don't want pressed books more than they actually care. I know for a fact there are those that say they don't want them but still press them to sell them for more money. Hard to have any respect for those guys.

 

I think there would be very few people send their books back to CGC. It would be a situation of "what I don't know won't hurt me." That would also put them in a moral conundrum about disclosure. Especially if they thought there is a chance of losing money. Sure there are those that would be righteous and stick to their guns, but most would take the hippocratic path.

 

[ComicConnoisseur]

 

 

But more importantly... look at all of the people here on these boards that don't want pressed books in their collection. They would all be sending their already-slabbed books back in to CGC for resubmission to discover which are pressed and which aren't.

 

 

 

I don't know if that number of people is that significant, and I'm willing to bet a few of those people like to say they don't want pressed books more than they actually care. I know for a fact there are those that say they don't want them but still press them to sell them for more money. Hard to have any respect for those guys.

I think there would be very few people send their books back to CGC. It would be a situation of "what I don't know won't hurt me." That would also put them in a moral conundrum about disclosure. Especially if they thought there is a chance of losing money. Sure there are those that would be righteous and stick to their guns, but most would take the hippocratic path.

+1

[skypinkblu]

 

 

But more importantly... look at all of the people here on these boards that don't want pressed books in their collection. They would all be sending their already-slabbed books back in to CGC for resubmission to discover which are pressed and which aren't.

 

 

 

I don't know if that number of people is that significant, and I'm willing to bet a few of those people like to say they don't want pressed books more than they actually care. I know for a fact there are those that say they don't want them but still press them to sell them for more money. Hard to have any respect for those guys.

 

I think there would be very few people send their books back to CGC. It would be a situation of "what I don't know won't hurt me." That would also put them in a moral conundrum about disclosure. Especially if they thought there is a chance of losing money. Sure there are those that would be righteous and stick to their guns, but most would take the hippocratic path.

 

Maybe there are still people who thing pressing IS restoration, but don't hate all restoration, just want disclosure. There is a lot of pressure from those who press a lot of books, and who have from the beginning, to make this a non issue, and they seem to be a lot more vocal than the other side, or sides....I guess I see 3 sides here, it's a triangle;) The original decision by CGC to try and make it a non issue had a lot of monetary thought behind it. The same as not disclosing one type of cleaning.

[Theagenes]

 

 

But more importantly... look at all of the people here on these boards that don't want pressed books in their collection. They would all be sending their already-slabbed books back in to CGC for resubmission to discover which are pressed and which aren't.

 

 

 

I don't know if that number of people is that significant, and I'm willing to bet a few of those people like to say they don't want pressed books more than they actually care. I know for a fact there are those that say they don't want them but still press them to sell them for more money. Hard to have any respect for those guys.

 

I think there would be very few people send their books back to CGC. It would be a situation of "what I don't know won't hurt me." That would also put them in a moral conundrum about disclosure. Especially if they thought there is a chance of losing money. Sure there are those that would be righteous and stick to their guns, but most would take the hippocratic path.

 

I tend to agree with this. I don't think there are enough people who would care enough to pay extra for pressing detection to make it worth while for CGC to offer it.

 

Let's just for the sake of argument that the "phaser" I'm talking could reliably detect pressing, how long would take to recoup the initial 50K investment?

[gyro-1]

What I got from this thread:

 

Pressed without disclosure to buyer=Bad

Pressing to sell in higher grade=Good

Putting "pressed" on the label=Bad

Not putting "pressed" on the label=Dishonest

Pressing is semi-detectable

This is a good post !

If could add

Pressing to make your personal property look better = Good

[TupennyConan]

I just got through reading an article on thee transfer of trace amounts of silicone from release paper liners. The amount would miniscule and would depend on the brand of release paper, but it should be detectable by several methods, including the device I have. I;m really intrigued now and may try it out as soon as get a chance.

 

& so it begins.

 

[comicwiz]

I disagree pressing can't be detected.

 

In fact, I will go one further and say there are defects that CGC immediately would be able to identify as being produced by pressing, damage produced by their slab, or a combination of both.

 

It's too easy to dismiss this, but after seeing millions of books, I would say that identification is possible, but they chose not to treat it as a problem and that's why we're stuck debating this point for as long as we have.

 

Outside of identification by the naked eye, there are also detection possibilities associated to the release coatings on the paper used in the pressing process.

 

There is no way the chemicals in the release profile of these coatings would ever be used in the manufacturing/production of the comic, it's storage, or conservation products (bags/boards), so once residue is traced back to the front/rear, and interior pages where release papers would be used, there would be no explanation or reason to conclude other than pressing producing the condition where these chemicals would be present.

 

If you're going to argue that the comics could have been stored next to release papers, then I would say make sure they aren't.

 

Matter of time and technology folks - all just a matter of time.

 

 

 

As far as detecting possibilities associated to the coatings on release paper, you are only speculating that there is some sort of transference there. Even if it were possible through "technology"...good luck financing that. It would only drive up costs and turn around times.

 

 

Let me throw this out there just for discussion. I have a device in my office right now that might be able to detect the chemicals from the release paper. This technology might exist now. To Mike's point on cost, it retails for around $40-50,000. It would depend on what the elemental constituency of the release paper and whether on not any of it ends up on the comic after pressing. I would need to test it. It occurs to be that it might have other uses for detecting certain types of resto in which other substances are added to the book like aqueous cleaning, tape removal, etc.

 

I'm not sure I want to go into any more detail as Bookery's suggestion of a pressing detection service is an interesting one.

 

I know of the device you speak about. In fact when I first started researching this area, I found this detection equipment to be more expensive than the amount you mention. Like you, I was most interested in learning how these chemicals might impregnate the paper fibers and binders, which led me to some very interesting research on the "aging" effects of release papers, and into some exploratory ideas where the fibers and binders might be compared to other parts of the comic to determine any alternation. Suffice it to say that I feel that not only is this technology here, but that it will really come down to assembling the right combination of willingness and methodology. I don't refute your point about costs, but I think the resignation and dogmatism in people's perception on the detection capabilities is not only inaccurate, but could well be blown to shreds if the right method is used.

[TupennyConan]

I know of the device you speak about.

 

This sounds diabolical.

[ComicConnoisseur]

 

 

But more importantly... look at all of the people here on these boards that don't want pressed books in their collection. They would all be sending their already-slabbed books back in to CGC for resubmission to discover which are pressed and which aren't.

 

 

 

I don't know if that number of people is that significant, and I'm willing to bet a few of those people like to say they don't want pressed books more than they actually care. I know for a fact there are those that say they don't want them but still press them to sell them for more money. Hard to have any respect for those guys.

 

I think there would be very few people send their books back to CGC. It would be a situation of "what I don't know won't hurt me." That would also put them in a moral conundrum about disclosure. Especially if they thought there is a chance of losing money. Sure there are those that would be righteous and stick to their guns, but most would take the hippocratic path.

 

I tend to agree with this. I don't think there are enough people who would care enough to pay extra for pressing detection to make it worth while for CGC to offer it.

 

Let's just for the sake of argument that the "phaser" I'm talking could reliably detect pressing, how long would take to recoup the initial 50K investment?

I think it would be quicker than most think.

Technology moves fast.

How many of us had IPads,Nooks,Kindles,Laptops and big screen tvs on our wall 10 years ago?

Heck I don`t even think I had a wireless connection 10 years ago.

It`s inevitable that someday a quick and easy method to detect pressing will become available. It`s not a question of can but a question of when.

[Bookery]

I tend to agree with this. I don't think there are enough people who would care enough to pay extra for pressing detection to make it worth while for CGC to offer it.

 

Let's just for the sake of argument that the "phaser" I'm talking could reliably detect pressing, how long would take to recoup the initial 50K investment?

 

I agree that it's a minority, but it's a very vocal minority. As a former Merrill Lynch employee, I can say that it doesn't take a lot of people unhappy with a stock to send the price down... just enough to make everyone else unsure about their holdings to begin a sell-off.

 

If your book wasn't a "new label" book (i.e., all pressing identified), it wouldn't take long for word to spread through the auction houses that "old label" books won't bring as high of a price, or even simply are "at risk" of not bringing as high of a price.

 

As for recouping the investment... it depends. You would have to prove yourself in the marketplace at being able to reliably detect pressing, and that would take time. Ultimately, I believe the goal would be to enter into a partnership with CGC (you don't want the cost of having to develop and implement your own slabbing system). You simply want CGC to trust you to send books with your certificate to them, just as they have signature witnesses they trust for their yellow-label books. The "partnership" is a trust / respect sort of thing... not necessarily a financial / contractual partnership. But $50k is a pretty small investment compared to the potential rewards.

 

[Theagenes]

I disagree pressing can't be detected.

 

In fact, I will go one further and say there are defects that CGC immediately would be able to identify as being produced by pressing, damage produced by their slab, or a combination of both.

 

It's too easy to dismiss this, but after seeing millions of books, I would say that identification is possible, but they chose not to treat it as a problem and that's why we're stuck debating this point for as long as we have.

 

Outside of identification by the naked eye, there are also detection possibilities associated to the release coatings on the paper used in the pressing process.

 

There is no way the chemicals in the release profile of these coatings would ever be used in the manufacturing/production of the comic, it's storage, or conservation products (bags/boards), so once residue is traced back to the front/rear, and interior pages where release papers would be used, there would be no explanation or reason to conclude other than pressing producing the condition where these chemicals would be present.

 

If you're going to argue that the comics could have been stored next to release papers, then I would say make sure they aren't.

 

Matter of time and technology folks - all just a matter of time.

 

 

 

As far as detecting possibilities associated to the coatings on release paper, you are only speculating that there is some sort of transference there. Even if it were possible through "technology"...good luck financing that. It would only drive up costs and turn around times.

 

 

Let me throw this out there just for discussion. I have a device in my office right now that might be able to detect the chemicals from the release paper. This technology might exist now. To Mike's point on cost, it retails for around $40-50,000. It would depend on what the elemental constituency of the release paper and whether on not any of it ends up on the comic after pressing. I would need to test it. It occurs to be that it might have other uses for detecting certain types of resto in which other substances are added to the book like aqueous cleaning, tape removal, etc.

 

I'm not sure I want to go into any more detail as Bookery's suggestion of a pressing detection service is an interesting one.

 

I know of the device you speak about. In fact when I first started researching this area, I found this detection equipment to be more expensive than the amount you mention. Like you, I was most interested in learning how these chemicals might impregnate the paper fibers and binders, which led me to some very interesting research on the "aging" effects of release papers, and into some exploratory ideas where the fibers and binders might be compared to other parts of the comic to determine any alternation. Suffice it to say that I feel that not only is this technology here, but that it will really come down to assembling the right combination of willingness and methodology. I don't refute your point about costs, but I think the resignation and dogmatism in people's perception on the detection capabilities is not only inaccurate, but could well be blown to shreds if the right method is used.

 

What I have is a portable model of more expensive "tabletop" versions which was created for use in the field and is probably about as cheap as you can get for this type of thing. I've only had it for a few months, so I'm still learning how to use it and get a handle on interpreting the data, but I agree the technology is here, but it may cost prohibitive.

[comicwiz]

 

 

But more importantly... look at all of the people here on these boards that don't want pressed books in their collection. They would all be sending their already-slabbed books back in to CGC for resubmission to discover which are pressed and which aren't.

 

 

 

I don't know if that number of people is that significant, and I'm willing to bet a few of those people like to say they don't want pressed books more than they actually care. I know for a fact there are those that say they don't want them but still press them to sell them for more money. Hard to have any respect for those guys.

 

I think there would be very few people send their books back to CGC. It would be a situation of "what I don't know won't hurt me." That would also put them in a moral conundrum about disclosure. Especially if they thought there is a chance of losing money. Sure there are those that would be righteous and stick to their guns, but most would take the hippocratic path.

 

I tend to agree with this. I don't think there are enough people who would care enough to pay extra for pressing detection to make it worth while for CGC to offer it.

 

Let's just for the sake of argument that the "phaser" I'm talking could reliably detect pressing, how long would take to recoup the initial 50K investment?

 

I see it as far too controversial a topic to really overlook the imperative. So I think it remains to be seen whether a potential third-party's opinion supersedes the standalone opinion of CGC's grade. Although CVA is a crude example and has been cast in a rather negative light, I feel their presence is the beginning of some radical changes in our views and perceptions about relying on a secondary opinion to get the full picture.