CGC Acquires Classics Inc - Response to your Questions

[sterlingcomics]

I think the other non-in house pressers will be most hurt by this,as now CGC has taken pressing in house.

I've used both Matt and Joey to press books for me in the past, and I can assure you that I personally will never use Matt again.

Out of curiosity, why?

 

I used Matt a few times, but Joey is quicker, more economical, is great to deal/work with, doesn't come with all the baggage Matt comes with (ebay shilling, etc.,.), and is highly recommended. (thumbs u

 

But primarily, I'll never use Matt again because CGC buying CI is a direct conflict of interest and I won't support that part of their business. The institutionalization of the pre-processing of comic books to artificially manufacture higher graded copies is bad for the hobby, and while the swelling of the census will make these manufactured 9.4's and 9.6's more affordable, they will be less "special".

 

I would hate to see the trendline of the % of books received by CGC that have been put through the ringer from 2000 to present....I'm sure it's pretty scary.

OK, so nothing about his actual service per se, except competitors are cheaper and faster. :thumbsup: Reasons related to CGC buyout and his eBay days were secondary to my question, although obviously perfectly good reasons for someone to do/not do business with.

[lizards2]

EMBO Money Grubbers!

[Davenport]

Any links kind Sir?

Who is this mysterious Hammer fellow who is frequently mentioned in hushed tones?

 

Yeah I know - noobs.

 

Hammer was Dupcake himself. In the cyber-flesh.

Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be butthurt in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you...

 

Gotcha - Thanks Dicey

Many of Hammer's rants are still viewable at STL. You think we give the Game a hard time. These debates are like Miss Manners by comparison. Small example (on Ewert trims, 2005):

 

"You know, you all act over there like I WASN'T pointing out Jason's books for YEARS. You all act as though I was in the dark too. I WASN'T in the dark about ANYTHING concerning pressed and trimmed books in CGC Blue labels. For years, I was pointing out books offered by Jason, JP, Heritage, Link, etc., etc, on message Boards while everyone told me I was crazy and had my own agenda. I pointed, I described, I detailed WHAT was done, why it was done... everything but HOW it was done so copycats wouldn't jump on the every burgeoning bandwagon. I GAVE ya'll the blueprints of what game was afoot and nobody listened.

 

If I was right about THAT, what ELSE am I right about that everyone thought was just another crazy Hammer conspiracy theory? As time unfolds, what I detailed on those nessage boards will ALL prove to NOT be crazy conspiracy theories because each effect is based on cause and there is only one possible logical cause for the effects that the hobby is starting to notice. Like a jig-saw puzzle, each piece related though all different, and yet only ONE way to put them together to reach one possible conclusion once assembled. "

 

 

[gaz973]

More pressing whining. It amuses me.

 

 

This whole thread is hilarious.

 

CGC will be just fine. The hobby will be just fine. CFP will be just fine. The whole pressing debate has been going on for years and there are far more people that just do not care than people who do.

 

You live, you die and the wheels on the bus go around and around.

 

Wasn't there a poll on this board that showed the number of people that don't care was only slightly higher than those that do?

 

It neglected the tens of thousands of people who buy CGC books everyday, just look at eBay - most people do not care or even know about it.

 

There are tens of thousands of people buying CGC books every day?

 

Time to dump all other investments and jump on the gravy train quickly.

[Comicopolis]

More pressing whining. It amuses me.

 

 

This whole thread is hilarious.

 

CGC will be just fine. The hobby will be just fine. CFP will be just fine. The whole pressing debate has been going on for years and there are far more people that just do not care than people who do.

 

You live, you die and the wheels on the bus go around and around.

 

Wasn't there a poll on this board that showed the number of people that don't care was only slightly higher than those that do?

 

It neglected the tens of thousands of people who buy CGC books everyday, just look at eBay - most people do not care or even know about it.

 

There are tens of thousands of people buying CGC books every day?

 

Time to dump all other investments and jump on the gravy train quickly.

 

I think he meant ten.

[ComicConnoisseur]

This thread is nothing more than the same thing going in circles for years.

Your posts seem honest and a genuine attempt to inform, so I want ask you a question. Straight up, no argument from me afterward. I just want to read your honest response, see if I can wrap my head around it...

 

Do you think there's anything "weird" about a System that degrades a comic book for tiny non-damaged paper irregularities (easily reversed with common pressing techniques), but has no problem with completely undoing the original factory book-assembly?

I really have a hard time getting past that. So, what do you think?

 

Maybe that's where the thinking splits. Comic books are factory-produced mechanical book-assemblies, intended to move. The assembly itself, the "book", represents a specific vintage.

 

How do you see "comic books" as collectibles? Is a modern book-assembly created from vintage parts the same as an original production? If a post-production paper-wave is a "defect", how about a complete post-production undoing of the entire artifact?

 

[VintageComics]

There are tens of thousands of people buying CGC books every day?

 

While he may have been exaggerating a bit there are people who will only buy CGC graded books. They don't have the time to learn how to grade, source out dealers who grade conservatively and travel to shows and inspect their own books.

[lizards2]

There are tens of thousands of people buying CGC books every day?

 

While he may have been exaggerating a bit there are people who will only buy CGC graded books. They don't have the time to learn how to grade, source out dealers who grade conservatively and travel to shows and inspect their own books.

I buy CGC books when raw copies of particular issues are very hard to find, or when I can get them for 50-60% of GPA/OSPG off eBay, which is frequently. Mostly talking 9.0-9.4. The 9.4s are definitely a bit tougher to come by at a discount.

[VintageComics]

Do you think there's anything "weird" about a System that degrades a comic book for tiny non-damaged paper irregularities (easily reversed with common pressing techniques), but has no problem with completely undoing the original factory book-assembly?

 

 

What's with all the cryptic graemlin posts all the time, like you're The Thinker and delving into some deep mystery?

 

The paragraph you are highlighting has already been rebutted and explained away in detail. It's not exactly true and it's another exaggeration in an attempt to distort what CGC actually does.

 

CGC downgrades for defects just like anyone would. Put two identical books together and introduce a small non colour breaking defect and everyone from the average pilgrim to the President would agree that the book with the defect should grade lower.

 

CGC cannot detect what is not detectable. If someone does something and covers their tracks well enough that there is no visible evidence that they were there, how can you blame CGC for not detecting it?

 

I see the same questions asked in this thread 1/2 dozen or a dozen times. Why is that? It's because people can't be bothered to read through the details and remember them as they read them. Or they just can't be bothered. It's these sort of posts, where the details are not kept at the forefront that keep the conversation going in circles indefinitely even though certain points have been clearly and explicitly explained in a way that makes sense to the average person.

 

And many of these points have been explained in detail 100's of times.

 

 

[COI]

So what service is the marketplace asking of CGC, if not to be impartial when it comes to grading and restoration notation? What value is added if not those services delivered without conflict of interest?

 

Impartiality brought CGC to the dance. Now that they're here, uncontested, and now that a lucrative game has been constructed around them over the course of a decade, the significance of impartiality has greatly diminished.

 

Things won't change because most of CGC's detractors, at least around here, still use the service. So it really is as Brian said; if you don't like what's going on, cash out your chips and leave this segment of the hobby, which means not getting books pressed, not buying slabbed books, and not submitting books to get slabbed. Anything less is a tacit acceptance of CGC's practices.

[Jeffro.]

Do you think there's anything "weird" about a System that degrades a comic book for tiny non-damaged paper irregularities (easily reversed with common pressing techniques), but has no problem with completely undoing the original factory book-assembly?

 

 

What's with all the cryptic graemlin posts all the time, like you're The Thinker and delving into some deep mystery?

 

Itchy chin

[comicwiz]

Any links kind Sir?

Who is this mysterious Hammer fellow who is frequently mentioned in hushed tones?

 

Yeah I know - noobs.

 

Hammer was Dupcake himself. In the cyber-flesh.

Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be butthurt in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you...

 

Gotcha - Thanks Dicey

Many of Hammer's rants are still viewable at STL. You think we give the Game a hard time. These debates are like Miss Manners by comparison. Small example (on Ewert trims, 2005):

 

"You know, you all act over there like I WASN'T pointing out Jason's books for YEARS. You all act as though I was in the dark too. I WASN'T in the dark about ANYTHING concerning pressed and trimmed books in CGC Blue labels. For years, I was pointing out books offered by Jason, JP, Heritage, Link, etc., etc, on message Boards while everyone told me I was crazy and had my own agenda. I pointed, I described, I detailed WHAT was done, why it was done... everything but HOW it was done so copycats wouldn't jump on the every burgeoning bandwagon. I GAVE ya'll the blueprints of what game was afoot and nobody listened.

 

If I was right about THAT, what ELSE am I right about that everyone thought was just another crazy Hammer conspiracy theory? As time unfolds, what I detailed on those nessage boards will ALL prove to NOT be crazy conspiracy theories because each effect is based on cause and there is only one possible logical cause for the effects that the hobby is starting to notice. Like a jig-saw puzzle, each piece related though all different, and yet only ONE way to put them together to reach one possible conclusion once assembled. "

 

 

His allegations - the part about the system using certification to move questionable material - this is exactly what I was trying to hit home with my comment about CGC taking the ceiling and turning it into the ground floor of a gamed system of certification.

 

The immediate thought in people's mind was to connect what I said with the suggestion CGC enabled Dupcak/Ewarts like activity, when what they should have been taking from it is the thought that these books needed to be sold somewhere.

 

Full circle, the love it or leave it is logic is badly flawed because regardless of motivation or agenda, without the detective work of people connecting the dots, and figuring out how and where this material was/is being circulated, I believe we would be far worse off than we are with whatever amount of awareness that came from being vigilante, even if it comes off as petulant protestations with little or no effect for greater change.

 

When we factor in public perception, bleedingcool's condemnation framed in humor, and the opposition that's spreading across the web over the appearance of a deal loaded with questions surrounding potential conflicts of interest, there is a fallout from all this that comes with considerable cost, and those allegations once thought to be the rantings of a nutjob poster-boy scammer are cementing into a hardline perception of a certification system complicit in the activity and movement of questionable goods.

 

This isn't just a dark period for the hobby, but a crisis in both the "universal" understanding of what certification is meant to do, and consumers acceptance of it's impartial role and what it ought to be doing to eradicate any/all external perception of impropriety.

[Transplant]

So what service is the marketplace asking of CGC, if not to be impartial when it comes to grading and restoration notation? What value is added if not those services delivered without conflict of interest?

 

Impartiality brought CGC to the dance. Now that they're here, uncontested, and now that a lucrative game has been constructed around them over the course of a decade, the significance of impartiality has greatly diminished.

 

Things won't change because most of CGC's detractors, at least around here, still use the service. So it really is as Brian said; if you don't like what's going on, cash out your chips and leave this segment of the hobby, which means not getting books pressed, not buying slabbed books, and not submitting books to get slabbed. Anything less is a tacit acceptance of CGC's practices.

I've never been fond of the love it or leave it thinking. Why not continue to advocate for the changes you think are needed?

 

I asked this question earlier in one of the threads. At what point will a potential conflict be too much? If we can trust that no one at CGC will know what books are worked on by CI, then why limit CI at all? Why make them subject to the same non-commercial buying/selling of slabbed books? For that matter why, if all grading is impartial and blind, would you limit any employee of CCG or CGC from commercially buying/selling slabbed books?

 

Surely there is some line that can be crossed where the marketplace will look up from its plate and say, no more. How about if CGC pays a bonus to graders for hitting a certain number of 9.8s during a month? Or a bonus for graders who never hit a 9.8? There's some point where people would have a conniption.

 

So the argument that no one should expect impartiality anymore doesn't hold much water. The question is really, where is the line?

[Transplant]

Has CGC answered any questions here yet?

[VintageComics]

The question is really, where is the line?

 

Great question.

 

 

[lizards2]

So what service is the marketplace asking of CGC, if not to be impartial when it comes to grading and restoration notation? What value is added if not those services delivered without conflict of interest?

 

Impartiality brought CGC to the dance. Now that they're here, uncontested, and now that a lucrative game has been constructed around them over the course of a decade, the significance of impartiality has greatly diminished.

 

Things won't change because most of CGC's detractors, at least around here, still use the service. So it really is as Brian said; if you don't like what's going on, cash out your chips and leave this segment of the hobby, which means not getting books pressed, not buying slabbed books, and not submitting books to get slabbed. Anything less is a tacit acceptance of CGC's practices.

I've never been fond of the love it or leave it thinking. Why not continue to advocate for the changes you think are needed?

 

I asked this question earlier in one of the threads. At what point will a potential conflict be too much? If we can trust that no one at CGC will know what books are worked on by CI, then why limit CI at all? Why make them subject to the same non-commercial buying/selling of slabbed books? For that matter why, if all grading is impartial and blind, would you limit any employee of CCG or CGC from commercially buying/selling slabbed books?

 

Surely there is some line that can be crossed where the marketplace will look up from its plate and say, no more. How about if CGC pays a bonus to graders for hitting a certain number of 9.8s during a month? Or a bonus for graders who never hit a 9.8? There's some point where people would have a conniption.

 

So the argument that no one should expect impartiality anymore doesn't hold much water. The question is really, where is the line?

It could be an interesting laboratory situation whereby certain parties can instantly see what enhancement techniques they can get past the graders..., undetected...., :think:

[lizards2]

Has CGC answered any questions here yet?

Nope. I don't expect them to either.

[TupennyConan]

This isn't just a dark period for the hobby, but a crisis...

 

Oh for Heaven's sake.

 

I've got no part of any such hobby. Why do you? Or any of you?

 

 

[skypinkblu]

Do you think there's anything "weird" about a System that degrades a comic book for tiny non-damaged paper irregularities (easily reversed with common pressing techniques), but has no problem with completely undoing the original factory book-assembly?

 

 

What's with all the cryptic graemlin posts all the time, like you're The Thinker and delving into some deep mystery?

 

The paragraph you are highlighting has already been rebutted and explained away in detail. It's not exactly true and it's another exaggeration in an attempt to distort what CGC actually does.

 

CGC downgrades for defects just like anyone would. Put two identical books together and introduce a small non colour breaking defect and everyone from the average pilgrim to the President would agree that the book with the defect should grade lower.

 

CGC cannot detect what is not detectable. If someone does something and covers their tracks well enough that there is no visible evidence that they were there, how can you blame CGC for not detecting it?

 

I see the same questions asked in this thread 1/2 dozen or a dozen times. Why is that? It's because people can't be bothered to read through the details and remember them as they read them. Or they just can't be bothered. It's these sort of posts, where the details are not kept at the forefront that keep the conversation going in circles indefinitely even though certain points have been clearly and explicitly explained in a way that makes sense to the average person.

 

And many of these points have been explained in detail 100's of times.

 

I think part of that is Roy, that even though these points have been "explained" or poo poo'd , that not everyone agrees with the explanations. Some of us, think the people or company explaining are biased because the "explanations" are slanted in a way to support a specific agenda.

 

I like this place a lot, I actually own quite a few CGC books, not because I sought them out particularly, but because the books I was looking for, just happened to be IN CGC holders and I've never actually cracked one open. I don't not buy a book because it happens to be in a CGC shell...however, I wonder how all of a sudden, the people who make decisions at CGC are the G-ds of comics...especially since the staff and graders, seem to be in constant flux.

 

I'm sure they have many valid OPINIONS, but so do a lot of other people here, who I admire. I see these threads as a way to debate and discuss ideas, not a lecture hall with a Professor dictating to students.

 

When people who support CGC's stance say that pressing is NOT restoration because it's not detectable all the time, perhaps there is/was an agenda behind that statement. There may have been a conscious decision to promote that statement rather than to study how to detect it all the time. If that was the case, I'm not sure that decision was to game the system, it might have just been a smart business decision to save time in grading, same as not detecting cleaning. However, it left an opening, which some people took advantage of,not everyone, certainly, but some.

 

That still bothers some of us, and maybe some more than others, but having someone come on here and say "there was an explanation" ...is just trying to stifle opposing thoughts.

 

I have no plans to dump my CGC books and I'll still buy one if there is a book I want encased inside, and I'll still use my coupons on books I might sell eventually, because I have them and they might be worth more one day, maybe;)...however, I'm still happy that I'm a lower grade collector, makes my life easier. I don't have to worry SO much about my books going lower on the census...except for a handful.

[COI]

Any links kind Sir?

Who is this mysterious Hammer fellow who is frequently mentioned in hushed tones?

 

Yeah I know - noobs.

 

Hammer was Dupcake himself. In the cyber-flesh.

Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be butthurt in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you...

 

Gotcha - Thanks Dicey

Many of Hammer's rants are still viewable at STL. You think we give the Game a hard time. These debates are like Miss Manners by comparison. Small example (on Ewert trims, 2005):

 

"You know, you all act over there like I WASN'T pointing out Jason's books for YEARS. You all act as though I was in the dark too. I WASN'T in the dark about ANYTHING concerning pressed and trimmed books in CGC Blue labels. For years, I was pointing out books offered by Jason, JP, Heritage, Link, etc., etc, on message Boards while everyone told me I was crazy and had my own agenda. I pointed, I described, I detailed WHAT was done, why it was done... everything but HOW it was done so copycats wouldn't jump on the every burgeoning bandwagon. I GAVE ya'll the blueprints of what game was afoot and nobody listened.

 

If I was right about THAT, what ELSE am I right about that everyone thought was just another crazy Hammer conspiracy theory? As time unfolds, what I detailed on those nessage boards will ALL prove to NOT be crazy conspiracy theories because each effect is based on cause and there is only one possible logical cause for the effects that the hobby is starting to notice. Like a jig-saw puzzle, each piece related though all different, and yet only ONE way to put them together to reach one possible conclusion once assembled. "

 

 

His allegations - the part about the system using certification to move questionable material - this is exactly what I was trying to hit home with my comment about CGC taking the ceiling and turning it into the ground floor of a gamed system of certification.

 

The immediate thought in people's mind was to connect what I said with the suggestion CGC enabled Dupcak/Ewarts like activity, when what they should have been taking from it is the thought that these books needed to be sold somewhere.

 

Full circle, the love it or leave it is logic is badly flawed because regardless of motivation or agenda, without the detective work of people connecting the dots, and figuring out how and where this material was/is being circulated, I believe we would be far worse off than we are with whatever amount of awareness that came from being vigilante, even if it comes off as petulant protestations with little or no effect for greater change.

 

When we factor in public perception, bleedingcool's condemnation framed in humor, and the opposition that's spreading across the web over the appearance of a deal loaded with questions surrounding potential conflicts of interest, there is a fallout from all this that comes with considerable cost, and those allegations once thought to be the rantings of a nutjob poster-boy scammer are cementing into a hardline perception of a certification system complicit in the activity and movement of questionable goods.

 

This isn't just a dark period for the hobby, but a crisis in both the "universal" understanding of what certification is meant to do, and consumers acceptance of it's impartial role and what it ought to be doing to eradicate any/all external perception of impropriety.

 

Your post reads like you're an activist trying to change a system of government; these are comic books, and certification is a business. In the case of comics, it's a business dominated by one corporation. If "the game" is played with slabs, the value added by CGC for those players is based on the fact that CGC makes them money and not CGC's impartiality, or whatever your conception of a "universal understanding of what certification is meant to do" entails.