CGC Acquires Classics Inc - Response to your Questions

[Flaming_Telepath]

So, Steve. Can I call you Steve?

 

Steve,

 

How goes the PR campaign? Did I miss any missives from the central office? Where are the answers to the additional questions your customers have raised?

The OP has never replied in a thread, only started threads.

 

Great at talking, not so great at listening?

[drbanner]

So, Steve. Can I call you Steve?

 

Steve,

 

How goes the PR campaign? Did I miss any missives from the central office? Where are the answers to the additional questions your customers have raised?

The OP has never replied in a thread, only started threads.

 

Great at talking, not so great at listening?

 

What will be done to assure your customers that there will be no conflict of interest in this endeavor?

Nothing will be done about this because nothing can be done about this, it is what it is, a conflict of interest. We're doing it because we said we're doing it, so you can like it or lump it. But if you want to be assured of high grades and blue labels, don't worry about all the "noise in the system", just go ahead and send us your books for super-secret manipulation and pre-processing, we promise you that you won't be sorry!

[Chespirito]

"So, Steve. Can I call you Steve? "

 

 

 

:roflmao: :roflmao:

[comicwiz]

I disagree pressing can't be detected.

 

In fact, I will go one further and say there are defects that CGC immediately would be able to identify as being produced by pressing, damage produced by their slab, or a combination of both.

 

It's too easy to dismiss this, but after seeing millions of books, I would say that identification is possible, but they chose not to treat it as a problem and that's why we're stuck debating this point for as long as we have.

 

Outside of identification by the naked eye, there are also detection possibilities associated to the release coatings on the paper used in the pressing process.

 

There is no way the chemicals in the release profile of these coatings would ever be used in the manufacturing/production of the comic, it's storage, or conservation products (bags/boards), so once residue is traced back to the front/rear, and interior pages where release papers would be used, there would be no explanation or reason to conclude other than pressing producing the condition where these chemicals would be present.

 

If you're going to argue that the comics could have been stored next to release papers, then I would say make sure they aren't.

 

Matter of time and technology folks - all just a matter of time.

 

I can't believe I missed this - looks like PCGS has been using spectroscopy since 2010:

 

The PCGS Coin Sniffer™, a process incorporating advanced technology for detecting foreign materials and other enhancements on a coin's surface, will be used in two roll-out phases on all PCGS Secure Plus™ submissions with the first step beginning in September or October 2010.

 

"When our testing and development are completed, the PCGS Coin Sniffer will analyze the surfaces of coins to detect foreign substances, whether they are organic or inorganic materials. We will begin first with organic substances," said Don Willis, President of PCGS, a division of Collectors Universe, Inc. (NASDAQ).

 

"We are currently testing the detection of organic materials on coin surfaces and will begin incorporating that process on all PCGS Secure Plus submissions this fall. We are still in the development stage of detecting inorganic foreign materials, such as metals. Implementation of the PCGS Coin Sniffer for inorganic materials is planned for early 2011," he told attendees at the PCGS Set RegistrySM awards luncheon at the American Numismatic Association World's Fair of Money in Boston on August 13, 2010.

 

The PCGS Coin Sniffer uses dispersive X-ray spectrometry (EDX), Fournier Transform Infra-Red Spectral analysis (FT-IR), Raman Spectroscopy and other analytical techniques to detect the kinds of materials applied by so-called "coin doctors" to conceal problems with a coin or alter its surface to improve its appearance in an attempt to artificially increase the coin's value.

 

Commonly used organic materials applied to coins include plastic resins such as Bondo, putty, caulk, wax, lacquer, varnish, acrylics, paint, ink, acetone, glue, and citric acid.

 

"Some coin doctors have even used soap, eggs, fertilizer, forehead and nose grease and urine," Wills explained.

 

FT-IR spectroscopy in the PCGS Coin Sniffer process uses a beam of infra-red light that is reflected off a coin's surface to detect molecules of foreign substances. Different molecules vibrate at different wave lengths. A complete analysis of a coin's surface with simultaneous detection of all wave lengths can be completed in less than one minute.

 

Coins detected with foreign substances are classified by PCGS as "altered surfaces."

 

Willis explained that some coin doctors use metals to build up certain areas on a coin's surface, for example, attempting to create a full head on a Standing Liberty quarter, full split bands on a Winged Liberty/Mercury dime or improving diagnostic high areas. Metallic solutions such as solder, indium, Clorox®, iodine and potassium or potash have been applied to alter a coin's surface.

 

Beginning next year, the PCGS Coin Sniffer will use EDX technology to analyze elements of coins on the atomic level. The FT-IR technology that will be implemented this fall analyzes coins on the molecular level. In the EDX process, a high-energy beam of electrons is focused on a coin's surface. Resultant dispersed energy is measured and the atomic structure is determined.

 

"It's similar to scanning with an electron microscope," said Willis. "Foreign metals as well as metal fatigue due to high heat from a blow torch or laser can be detected."

 

Willis also reminded the audience that expanded "plus" (+) grading is now available for all standard submissions and show submissions to PCGS at no additional cost.

 

Since 1986, PCGS experts have authenticated, graded and certified more than 20 million coins from around the world with a declared value of over $20 billion. For additional information, visit www.PCGS.com or call PCGS Customer Service at (800) 447-8848.

 

PCGS is a division of Collectors Universe, Inc. (NASDAQ: CLCT).

 

Article provided by PCGS at www.pcgs.com

[lizards2]

 

"Some coin doctors have even used nose grease and urine," Wills explained.

 

:think:

 

 

[thirdgreenham]

 

"Some coin doctors have even used nose grease and urine," Wills explained.

 

:think:

 

 

I use nose grease to smooth over the non color-breaking creases and urine does a good job on foxing.

[Mike's Rack]

 

"Some coin doctors have even used nose grease and urine," Wills explained.

 

:think:

 

 

I use nose grease to smooth over the non color-breaking creases and urine does a good job on foxing.

CGC can already detect nose grease. I reattached a piece to a golden age book with nose grease and the label came back restored and said "Piece reattached with booger."

[namisgr]

What the heck is nose grease?

[GACollectibles]

 

"Some coin doctors have even used nose grease and urine," Wills explained.

 

:think:

 

 

I use nose grease to smooth over the non color-breaking creases and urine does a good job on foxing.

 

Is that known as the "Moisés Alou" process?

[Jeffro.]

 

"Some coin doctors have even used nose grease and urine," Wills explained.

 

:think:

 

 

I use nose grease to smooth over the non color-breaking creases and urine does a good job on foxing.

 

Fox urine I'm guessing?

[Jeffro.]

What the heck is nose grease?

 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nose+grease

[VintageComics]

Seanfingh and his "booger flick" theory was way ahead of his time!

 

 

[Moetown]

 

"Some coin doctors have even used nose grease and urine," Wills explained.

 

:think:

 

 

I use nose grease to smooth over the non color-breaking creases and urine does a good job on foxing.

CGC can already detect nose grease. I reattached a piece to a golden age book with nose grease and the label came back restored and said "Piece reattached with booger."

 

I think I wouldn't be deterred to purchase this book given the notation. Furthermore, I believe GPA could be used to substantiate the notion that 'booger' books garner a premium...

 

Just sayin'.

[fantastic_four]

Coins detected with foreign substances are classified by PCGS as "altered surfaces."

 

Which "foreign substances" are allowed and which aren't? How do they know which ones are a result of intentional alteration and which aren't? It's no surprise that using microscopic or infrared analysis that substances not visible to the naked eye can be seen, but establishing that something was introduced during a restoration attempt is another matter entirely.

[comicwiz]

Coins detected with foreign substances are classified by PCGS as "altered surfaces."

 

Which "foreign substances" are allowed and which aren't? How do they know which ones are a result of intentional alteration and which aren't? It's no surprise that using microscopic or infrared analysis that substances not visible to the naked eye can be seen, but establishing that something was introduced during a restoration attempt is another matter entirely.

 

Neither having performed the "sniffing" PCGS performs, or using the same exacting techniques or technology, an educated guess is that it would be fairly simple to establish beyond a reasonable doubt, especially when "manipulative" techniques are the only explanation for the presence of these foreign substances.

[towards2112]

Where's the dead parrot?

 

Exactly !

[fantastic_four]

Neither having performed the "sniffing" PCGS performs, or using the same exacting techniques or technology, an educated guess is that it would be fairly simple to establish beyond a reasonable doubt, especially when "manipulative" techniques are the only explanation for the presence of these foreign substances.

 

Agreed. To be more specific, the article mentioned examples of "Bondo, putty, caulk, wax, lacquer, varnish, acrylics, paint, ink, acetone, glue, and citric acid," and MOST of those do seem incriminating. But it also mentioned "soap, eggs, fertilizer, forehead and nose grease and urine." Those get the "altered surface" stigma too? There's any number of non-restorative methods that could lead to those being on a coin.

 

On a separate note, what made you link that article? Looking for foreign substances is a different topic than finding a way to detect comic pressing since pressing doesn't leave any detectable substances when done well.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

 

On a separate note, what made you link that article? Looking for foreign substances is a different topic than finding a way to detect comic pressing since pressing doesn't leave any detectable substances when done well.

 

And you have confirmed that with dispersive X-ray spectrometry (EDX), Fournier Transform Infra-Red Spectral analysis (FT-IR), Raman Spectroscopy and other analytical techniques?

 

I would imagine some signature of the release paper used in pressing would stand out like a sore thumb.

[fantastic_four]

 

On a separate note, what made you link that article? Looking for foreign substances is a different topic than finding a way to detect comic pressing since pressing doesn't leave any detectable substances when done well.

 

And you have confirmed that with dispersive X-ray spectrometry (EDX), Fournier Transform Infra-Red Spectral analysis (FT-IR), Raman Spectroscopy and other analytical techniques?

 

I would imagine some signature of the release paper used in pressing would stand out like a sore thumb.

 

I believe Joseph mentioned that earlier in this older thread. I agree, but as soon as CGC hypothetically started to note pressing due to the presence of release paper, it's difficult to imagine that pressers wouldn't move on to something else that doesn't leave residue to prevent scalding the paper.

 

I do remain optimistic that pressing is detectable, I just don't think anyone's cracked it yet. As we mentioned earlier in this thread, fiber pattern analysis could be the way.

[comicwiz]

Neither having performed the "sniffing" PCGS performs, or using the same exacting techniques or technology, an educated guess is that it would be fairly simple to establish beyond a reasonable doubt, especially when "manipulative" techniques are the only explanation for the presence of these foreign substances.

 

Agreed. To be more specific, the article mentioned examples of "Bondo, putty, caulk, wax, lacquer, varnish, acrylics, paint, ink, acetone, glue, and citric acid," and MOST of those do seem incriminating. But it also mentioned "soap, eggs, fertilizer, forehead and nose grease and urine." Those get the "altered surface" stigma too? There's any number of non-restorative methods that could lead to those being on a coin.

 

On a separate note, what made you link that article? Looking for foreign substances is a different topic than finding a way to detect comic pressing since pressing doesn't leave any detectable substances when done well.

 

On the bolded part of your statement, I disagree. I linked it in the context of the original discussion as I wasn't aware PCGS was using spectroscopy, and more recently because I thought it might be useful with what's happening with the AFA situation.