How often does pressing cause fiber distortion over time?

[Hepcat]

And of course there's still my more general question. I would think that applying heat and pressure to decades old pulp would not be a good idea in general and I'm wondering how many years on average it would take for the adverse effects to become painfully obvious.

 

Probably never if done properly.

 

Never is a long time. Particularly if the vast majority of pressing has been done in the last 10-15 years. Will pressed books end up aging/browning more quickly over the next twenty years? Most of us should live long enough to find out and it will be interesting to see.

 

[VintageComics]

When I talked to Litch about the book today he said the rippling fell into a 7.5 grade because it did not leave water damage tideline stains..the stain on the BC though did.

 

 

Wait, I thought CGC heavily downgraded for small NCB wear. If so, this book should have graded a 4.0 so that someone can press it up to a 9.4!

[VintageComics]

Never is a long time. Particularly if the vast majority of pressing has been done in the last 10-15 years. Will pressed books end up aging/browning more quickly over the next twenty years? Most of us should live long enough to find out and it will be interesting to see.

 

 

I think you'll have just as much damage from a book sitting in a box in Fed Ex truck in Florida or Arizona as you will from someone over-cooking a book.

 

A properly pressed book doesn't bother me too much.

[Ze-man]

And about the issue of pressed paper reverting? I imagine it happens on old spine rolled comics that were not pressed correctly to start with. But never seen it like in the comic you posted above.

 

 

Typically if the fibers in paper are relaxed enough, they become open to laying flat as when the paper was pulp and pressed into paper.

 

And once made flat, they have no tendency pushing them to revert back.

 

An extreme case of this is water washing, but shows that paper is very forgiving if moisture is introduced.

 

 

 

A water soaked/damaged book of Moondogs from years ago.

 

 

 

Staples obviously not replaced yet.

 

 

 

 

 

[VintageComics]

I wish I'd bought that book.

 

Loved it from the moment I laid eyes on it.

 

[comicwiz]

Couldn't the heat from sonic sealing the inner well refer inward? If the seal is meant to be air tight, where else would the heat travel except inward? I ask this because I have seen inner wells with a higher degree of melt occurring than normal. I had to have a book regraded because of this, and I was told this happens when they leave the well under heat too long. What this usually results in is a warping or melting where the recessed borders of the inner well start to lose their form and shape. That outer edge is really close to the border of the inner well too.

[joeypost]

Couldn't the heat from sonic sealing the inner well refer inward? If the seal is meant to be air tight, where else would the heat travel except inward? I ask this because I have seen inner wells with a higher degree of melt occurring than normal. I had to have a book regraded because of this, and I was told this happens when they leave the well under heat too long. What this usually results in is a warping or melting where the recessed borders of the inner well start to lose their form and shape. That outer edge is really close to the border of the inner well too.

 

It's possible Joe, that and the inner well being too snug.

[comicwiz]

Couldn't the heat from sonic sealing the inner well refer inward? If the seal is meant to be air tight, where else would the heat travel except inward? I ask this because I have seen inner wells with a higher degree of melt occurring than normal. I had to have a book regraded because of this, and I was told this happens when they leave the well under heat too long. What this usually results in is a warping or melting where the recessed borders of the inner well start to lose their form and shape. That outer edge is really close to the border of the inner well too.

 

It's possible Joe, that and the inner well being too snug.

 

(thumbs u

[MCMiles]

And of course there's still my more general question. I would think that applying heat and pressure to decades old pulp would not be a good idea in general and I'm wondering how many years on average it would take for the adverse effects to become painfully obvious.

 

Probably never if done properly.

 

Never is a long time. Particularly if the vast majority of pressing has been done in the last 10-15 years. Will pressed books end up aging/browning more quickly over the next twenty years? Most of us should live long enough to find out and it will be interesting to see.

 

 

If you cook or apply enough heat to something to burn it (including paper), does it change immediately or does it wait ten to fifteen years?

 

Regular changes (cycling) in temperature and relative humidity can lead to weakening of paper.

[Hepcat]

If you cook or apply enough heat to something to burn it (including paper), does it change immediately or does it wait ten to fifteen years?

 

That's the fallacy of aggregation in reverse. Just because you don't die from your first cigarette doesn't mean smoking is not having a negative impact upon your health. Just because a comic didn't burst into flames upon pressing doesn't mean there was no long term damage to the paper fibers which could very well show up after twenty years.

 

[Ze-man]

Couldn't the heat from sonic sealing the inner well refer inward? If the seal is meant to be air tight, where else would the heat travel except inward? I ask this because I have seen inner wells with a higher degree of melt occurring than normal. I had to have a book regraded because of this, and I was told this happens when they leave the well under heat too long. What this usually results in is a warping or melting where the recessed borders of the inner well start to lose their form and shape. That outer edge is really close to the border of the inner well too.

 

Are you inferring the sonic weld caused the Fat&Slat edge to wrinkle?

 

It isn't even close, or at least no closer then many other GA books I have seen slabbed.

 

 

[MCMiles]

If you cook or apply enough heat to something to burn it (including paper), does it change immediately or does it wait ten to fifteen years?

 

That's the fallacy of aggregation in reverse. Just because you don't die from your first cigarette doesn't mean smoking is not having a negative impact upon your health. Just because a comic didn't burst into flames upon pressing doesn't mean there was no long term damage to the paper fibers which could very well show up after twenty years.

 

 

I should have known better.

 

People die from repeated smoking, which would coincide with the second part of my post you didn't quote. They don't die from one cigarette, and in fact people often get healthier if they quit smoking.

 

Even if you could prove damage occurs at the time of pressing, it's not something that is going to continue to get worse as time goes by.

 

 

[Hepcat]

Even if you could prove damage occurs at the time of pressing....

 

I don't need to prove that it happens. I am, however, open to the possibility that it may happen. Are you not open to this possibility? Do you categorically deny that it could happen, or could even be happening as we speak?

 

... it's not something that is going to continue to get worse as time goes by.

 

If damage to the fibres has happened, it wouldn't get worse over time. It would simply become apparent that such has occurred as the fibres revert to their precompressed condition, just as a clockwork toy reverts to its prewound condition over several minutes after you wind it for a few seconds. But since the hundreds of thousands of fibers can't possibly all revert at the same rate, the damage they have suffered would slowly become more apparent over time.

 

So I ask you again. Do you deny that this is a possibility? And please no weasel words such as "if done properly".

 

 

[joeypost]

The old NOD group had a book cut in half. Half was pressed, the other half left alone. When they had it analyzed the pressed half had strong hydrogen bonds compared to the half not pressed. Granted this was just one book, but if significant damage were to have occurred the pressed half would have shown it to some degree. It did not.

 

This was a book that was properly hydrated and pressed. It was not just thrown into a press. So to answer your question, a book that is prepped correctly can show some improvement to the fibers. Like anything in life, if done incorrectly damage can occur.

[MCMiles]

Even if you could prove damage occurs at the time of pressing....

 

I don't need to prove that it happens. I am, however, open to the possibility that it may happen. Are you not open to this possibility? Do you categorically deny that it could happen, or could even be happening as we speak?

 

... it's not something that is going to continue to get worse as time goes by.

 

If damage to the fibres has happened, it wouldn't get worse over time. It would simply become apparent that such has occurred as the fibres revert to their precompressed condition, just as a clockwork toy reverts to its prewound condition over several minutes after you wind it for a few seconds. But since the hundreds of thousands of fibers can't possibly all revert at the same rate, the damage they have suffered would slowly become more apparent over time.

 

So I ask you again. Do you deny that this is a possibility? And please no weasel words such as "if done properly".

 

 

As Joey pointed out. It's already been proven in some regard that the fibers actually come out better. That study isn't talked about often because it didn't get the negative results a lot of people were hoping for. I don't bring it up because it was limited and the initial results may not be true in all cases. Unlike most simply opposed to pressing and who will spout out any far fetched analogy to back their position, I actually have an open mind.

 

Are the fibers related to a pressable defect even damaged?...or are they slightly rearranged? Sure they are damaged in tears or even color breaking hard creases. Even in those extreme cases the fibers can still be re-arranged. They were arranged to make the paper in the first place. Leaf casting to repair paper products is a process of arranging the pulp fibers. That's the great thing about paper. It's natural properties allow for this to be a pretty basic process.

 

I get where you are going with the wind up toy, but the properties are far different in metal than paper. Your supposition only works in favor of the benign nature of pressing out pressable defects. The paper is flat. Put a slight bend in it. According to you those fibers will revert over time to their original condition (position), which would bring the paper back to it's flatter more pristine condition.

 

Reversion (which is based on the memory the material might have) wasn't your original argument anyway. Your original argument was based on adverse affects and accelerated aging and browning (which I'm sure you based on heat and hydration). Which one is it? Rhetorical question..I don't really care.

 

Reversion is a possibility if the work is not properly performed..."weasel words"?... Please...

 

Pointless conversation, but thanks for your time.

 

 

 

 

[MCMiles]

MCMiles has removed themself from this topic.

[seanfingh]

MCMiles has removed themself from this topic.

 

[Dick Pontoon]

He has duplicates?

[joeypost]

He has duplicates?

 

[joeypost]

Just wanted to add that the second Stewie was pressed.